Hello, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the Mayr-Melnhof Karton AG conference call about the results of the first half year in 2022. At this time, all participants have been placed on a listen-only mode. The floor will be open for questions following the presentation. Let me now turn the floor over to your host, Stephan Sweerts-Sporck. Good morning and welcome on the part of MM Group. It's a great pleasure to have you joining this Q&A conference call on our 2022 first half year results, which we released just this morning. Besides the press release and the half year report, a CEO video statement has been published on our website, mm.group. In this call, we want to provide you now with the possibility to direct questions on today's communication directly to our CEO, Peter Oswald, who is sitting next to me. Since this call addresses an international audience, we would very much appreciate your questions to be asked in English. Before we go for that, Peter, may I ask you to start with a short summary of our key messages? Yeah. Thank you very much, Stephan. Welcome to everyone, and thank you very much for your participation. I do not want to repeat anything more from the announcement or the video statement, which is posted on our website, but just make a few personal comments on the first half year. First, our sustainability service to our customers, so life cycle analysis, commitment to CO2 zero target, joint product developments to avoid plastics, unbiased advice on whether our customers should use recycled or virgin cartonboard. This is really gaining traction and gives us a good position in the market. Second, our packaging customers really appreciate our backward integration, and especially now, not just with recycled board, but also with virgin boards. In times of supply chain problems, this is really something which gives them more comfort. Third, the integration of Kotkamills and Kwidzyn is done, especially in Kwidzyn. It was a complex carve-out with regards to the IT systems, and this was finalized, successfully finalized in June. The synergies are well beyond what we have expected, both Kotkamills and Kwidzyn. Finally, and most important, I think Essentra Packaging, also in connection with Eson Pac, is a game changer for us. We will enjoy good organic growth because of global aging. We can offer novel products with a better environmental footprint and supply chain security to the global pharma companies. We will have many opportunities to make bolt-on acquisitions to increase our geographic footprint. This is again something over the next years, and we are a long-term thinking. We shouldn't underestimate that it's very good that we have now also a presence in the U.S. with this acquisition. Yeah, that's all from my side, and I'm looking now forward to your questions. Ladies and gentlemen, if you would like to ask a question, please press nine and star on your telephone keypad. In case you wish to cancel your question, press nine star again. The first question comes from Michael Marschallinger from Erste Group. Please go ahead with your question. Yes, good morning. Congrats to the strong results. I have three questions. I'll put them one by one. The first one is, on your video interview, you said there, you do everything to mitigate the cost inflation by price increases, but in some cases it's not necessary and you target machine standstills. Did you also already experience that in the second quarter, or is that more now throughout in fourth quarter? What products are that where you can't pass it through and what volume are we talking about here? Okay. Should I answer immediately? Yeah. Yeah. I will do it one by one. Yeah. The situation is such that so far in the second quarter, we were in the situation that all our customers, so to say, accepted the price increases. It's an open dialogue with customers sometimes to say, "Look, we could supply you additional volume, but we have to pay extra freight costs, et cetera." What we see now in some instances, mainly in uncoated fine paper and in packaging, in our packaging kraft paper, is that in some cases, the additional surcharges, energy surcharges would be so high that the customers basically says, "Yeah, I don't want to afford that." In this case, we will have some standstills. Overall, we talk about, I mean, it's difficult to forecast, but as it looks today, we talk about rather small volumes. We are producing 2.5 million tons in rough terms per annum, and as it looks today, about 10,000-20,000 tons, which we have to take out. That obviously can change, that's the situation currently. Okay, understood. My second question is that you built some gas storage. For what capacity would that be? How long would that last, this storage? And what is the working capital impact here? I just want to say here, because we don't also want to inform our competitors, it will be enough. Let's say there is basically there are three scenarios. One scenario is that there is no state intervention in the gas supply, so there is full supply. The second, other extreme would be that the whole economy more or less breaks down because a lot of companies can't produce anymore. I don't believe in that scenario, but a highly likely scenario is that there is some curtailment of gas. Here it will help us that we will not be the first to a cut-off because we are critical for the system as we produce for the food and pharma industry. If we are cut to a certain extent, let's say to 60% for a certain period of time, then we can put in our own. We can use, so to say, our own gas. Yes, it means a certain working capital build-up, but in the overall scheme of things, I think it's justifiable. It serves our policy because the supply of our customers has always absolute priority. Okay, understood. My last question on Russia. On the last call, you said that the business was fairly stable. How was it now in the second quarter? You say you pursue all options. Can you be a bit more specific? Will there be a decision on the second half of the year? We have to differentiate. We've obviously stopped all supplies of cartonboard and paper ahead of when we were requested to do so by the international rules. We've successfully placed this volume mainly in Western Europe, but also some in overseas. Our two operations, which we have, our packaging operations, they are continuing to do fairly well. Considering all options, I think is a euphemism which is frequently used, and it means we look at all options. Okay, fair enough. Okay. Thank you very much for answering the questions. Cheers. The next question comes from Markus Remis from Raiffeisen Bank International. Please go ahead with your question. Yeah, good morning, gentlemen. My first question would be on the packaging business. You indicated that, yeah, pricing cycles will be shortened. I mean, is there already some sort of initial customer feedback to this intention that you can share with us? I mean, because it's mostly the multinationals you're dealing with, is that just MM trying to change the kind of pricing the pricing cycle, or is that more of an industry-wide phenomenon? Yeah. Thank you for this question. I think it's an industry-wide phenomenon. It's a different environment than what we had over the last 30, 40 years, basically what anyone working today can remember. That we've moved from, let's say, fairly stable prices with some commodities going up and down to an environment where all sorts of commodities fluctuate even more. Also costs like, say, wages, salaries and wages, personnel costs, et cetera, are not moving between 1%, 2%, or 3%, but can have all sorts of numbers. Our customers accept that. Some of them, obviously reluctantly, but they accept the situation. We just wanted, with this statement, to highlight that we are implementing that in a very consequential way. If a customer insists on a three-year contract without a price adjustment clause, we would simply walk away. So far, in the negotiations where we had longer term contracts to be renewed, this was accepted, and the solutions are different. Some of them say, "Okay, then we make just a one-year contract instead of a three-year contract." With some of them, we have agreed on inflation clauses going beyond raw materials. Right. Is that then becoming effective? I mean, pricing negotiations are usually done at the end of the year, as far as I know. Does that mean there will be a kind of big chunk of your business to be transferred to shorter-term pricing then as of the beginning of 2023? I think we have to differentiate on the paper and cartonboard side. We have now this typical cycle that we have quarterly contracts for WLC, for recycled cartonboard and half-year contracts for folding boxboard, so for virgin cartonboard. With regards to our packaging contracts, if we have longer term packaging contracts, like for two or three years, they would not typically, they don't coincide with the calendar year. It can be. There were contracts which were renewed now, let's say in April, and some will be renewed in September, and some will become due next February. It's a continuous flow. It just depends when the last contract was made. Right. Okay. Is that a kind of quarterly pricing? If it will be based on, I don't know, certain kind of industry cost indices or how kind of transparent is that to your customers? Without revealing too much about our pricing policy, we have to be cautious for competition reasons. Typically, we would have a quarterly adjustment of raw materials, so cartonboard and maybe energy. Also quarterly or half-yearly adjustments according to a consumer price index or producer price index. Okay. For the remaining positions. The difference to the past is that in the past, it was mainly only cartonboard adjustments. Yeah. The adjustments were sometimes only done half-yearly or yearly, and they were not point to point, but were, let's say, like the price of the last half year average divided by the previous half year average. That just had a too long lag effect, which we can't accept anymore. Now it will be the last month available compared to a quarter before. All right. Actually, thank you. I mean, staying with pricing, looking ahead into next year, I mean, there is a lot of kind of headwinds coming from personnel costs, presumably. I mean, although energy will creep in again. I mean, how should we think about it? I'm not talking more about the board and paper segment, about the ability to further hike prices. I mean, you've got a, I would say, exceptional trajectory looking at the average prices of the last quarters, how that developed. Do you think that there's more room in terms of pricing? The pricing will mainly be dependent on what costs are doing. Obviously, I don't want to predict where energy costs will be. If one looks at forward rates, they will gradually come down after the winter. Who knows at the end of the day, what will change. In terms of personnel costs, we have for sure to expect higher settlements with the unions in the new year. Again, to what extent is unclear. The big unclear question is obviously, I think everyone agrees by now that we are going into a recession, but will this be a dramatic recession? Will it be a mild recession? Will the employee representatives or the trade unions, so to say, are willing to factor this in or not? These are all open questions. Overall, I think, we will come from a period where it was easier to pass on cost increases to a period where it will be somewhat more difficult. Mm-hmm. Okay. On the demand side, I mean, you're saying, or you're flagging still solid demand. But do you get a sense of a certain pull down, maybe? I mean, we're hearing that from a couple of other industries. Is that something you would share that probably the, how should I say, the momentum is cooling off also in your industries? Even if we talk about 90% of our business, which is folding cartons and cartonboard, there the order situation is very strong. Let's say the supply chain problems are easing a bit, but it's a very strong situation. If we look to some other grades, like liner or other uncoated fine paper, there we definitely see that the situation is easing. I think the big advantage of MM Group is that we are in a generally very resilient market. Yes, we will be affected by a recession, but maybe not to the extent than other businesses which are more volatile. Okay. Last question will be on the working capital development. I mean, that the increase we saw across the board in the reporting season. I mean, can you give us a sense of how that should then develop going towards the year-end? I mean, I understand there's a safety buffer built in gas storage and so on. Is it fair to assume that the kind of reduction towards year-end will be less pronounced than in previous years? Yes, I see. I think in terms of working days and so we are stable. The target is obviously to reduce it to the extent it doesn't hurt like our safety stocks, et cetera. Here we want to stay conservative and rather have a bit too many, too much stock and are able to supply. It depends on how prices develop overall, but I would expect more flattish development. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you. The next question comes from Matthias Pfeifenberger from Deutsche Bank. Please go ahead with your question. Yes. Good morning, Peter Oswald. Thanks for taking my questions. Firstly, on Board & Paper, I'm looking at an 18% margin. It's obviously not anything we've seen in the past. It seems like you have achieved a very positive price over cost spread, maybe just from the necessity to catch up quickly from the margin compression we saw at the back end of 2021. How sustainable is that? I mean, are you looking to reverse that a bit in the second half to approach more normal margin levels again? Yeah. Thank you for the question. I think we've highlighted very subtly with the word extraordinary second quarter that it was also. It wasn't just, let's call it overpricing. There were also some positive effects, like we benefited from that the CO2 certificates were paid out in a large amount. We had still some hedging in place, some fixed costs. This the situation of Q2 is nothing which one should write in any way into the future. Yeah. The situation simply from our cost, then we had an extremely good production in the second quarter, which was quite outstanding in a way because of COVID and all the problems we had. It could have easily somehow different. As we already said, we were highlighting that in some cases now, demand of some products are hurt. We might have also lower volumes, and with some spot prices of energy and wood and other products, we might just say, "Okay, we can't ask for that price anymore, and therefore we have to stop machines." The second quarter is not something to perpetuate in the future. Yeah. Okay. Thanks. The second one is again on Russia. Most of the companies I know have initiated disposal procedures. You've elaborated last time that you might be running out of spare parts if you don't get access to channels from Asia. Could you just update us a bit, what's holding you back in terms of discontinuing the operations, selling them? Or are you just trying to kind of sit it out and keep operations running? I think the main difference to many Anglo-Saxon companies is just that we are less outspoken about what we are planning to do because it's just bad for prices you achieve. Okay. We are, unlike many others, not under pressure. The operations are working, so they get their spare parts from, mainly from China, et cetera. We are relaxed. We really look into the options. It's not that we sit idly, but we do not want to commit ourselves at any point in time, because it is a question of the price which we will get. Yeah. Okay. Thanks a lot. Thank you. The next question comes from Cole Hathorn from Jefferies. Please go ahead with your question. Good morning. Thanks for taking my question. I'd just like to follow up on two questions. The first one's around wood availability, sourcing and pricing. Could you give a little bit of commentary around how the wood market's developing in Poland and Kwidzyn, and then also in for your Kotkamills up in Finland and any divergence in the wood pricing environment? Then secondly, you know, I mean, over the years at the various businesses, you've always focused on making sure your mills are in kind of a better position on the cost curve. Could you talk about how Mayr-Melnhof is positioned? No matter what happens to the energy environment, I know it's gonna be challenging for gas, but how will you be placed relative to the industry? Because I imagine everyone's gonna be experiencing those gas costs and how will you be positioned for that? Thank you. Yeah. Thank you, Cole. On wood prices are on an upward trend. We've seen fairly high increases in Poland, and we see them now also, or subsequently, they also have happened in other locations like Czech Republic or Germany. We also see a wood shortage. I would not be surprised if there are standstill of several companies. That links into this question what we've discussed. If you have high wood prices and your alternative wood would be to get this wood from far away places at very, very inflated costs and you have high energy costs, that it's better that you stop your machines for one machine for a week or so. Wood prices, the wood availability is generally bad. There's actually several reasons. One reason is that wood is used for people are collecting it to be safe for home heating. That's so everyone wants now pellets, et cetera. If there's a gas stoppage, at least they can fire their chimney. The second reason is that the sawmill industry is under pressure and is reducing volumes, and we have a by-product of sawmilling is one of our sources. Yeah. So yeah, wood prices are on an upward trend. With regards to the cost curve, we haven't updated the typical cost curves one gets from the consultants. But as I said before, we are generally well-positioned on the cost curve in Kwidzyn. My guess would be that it has somewhat deteriorated now because wood price increases have been higher in Poland than, for instance, in the Nordics. We will see now what the effect of the stop of Russian exports to Finland mean in Finland. We see already, we are also in Finland, we see more pressure there. It's always a bit difficult. Poland was taking the lead in the increases, but now we see also in other places, Slovenia, et cetera, that other places are somewhat catching up. I think we're still in a, especially with regards to Kwidzyn, maybe we've moved from the first quartile to the second quartile. Thanks very much. Just to follow up, when do you see the wood costs effectively peaking? I understand in Finland with the kind of Russian bans, we're probably gonna see that development carry on for a while. Do you think we're going to kind of hit peak wood prices in third or fourth quarter? Is there a timing when you feel we're probably at kind of the peak wood prices? I simply don't know. I guess the answer is yes, because there will be some temporary or maybe permanent shutdowns of mills. Demand will be reduced and the supply will come back. With no wood coming neither from Russia nor from Belarus, the wood supply will be somewhat tight for some time. Whether there is already a peak in third, fourth quarter, that's difficult to say. Maybe it takes a bit longer. Thank you. Thank you. At the moment, there seem to be no further questions, ladies and gentlemen. Please press nine and star if you'd like to ask a question. The next question comes from Guillaume Buhours from Gay-Lussac. Please go ahead with your question. Yeah. Good morning. Thanks for all taking my question. Congratulations for your results. My question is on energy hedging and while you comment on your gas stock, but I didn't understand the three different scenarios. Could you please come back on the three different scenario and I mean, the possibility that will bring you your storage of gas. Yeah, thanks a lot. Yeah. Thank you. I think there is a very realistic probability that we will have no gas shortage in the sense that there is a curtailment of gas to the industry, which would be the best case, which we all hope for. I think it has a fairly high likelihood. The other extreme scenario would be that there is a very big shortage of gas and that whole industries are forced to shut down for an extended period overall. In this case scenario, there wouldn't be a help if we had our own gas because then we will probably our customers cannot produce, our chemical suppliers cannot produce, et cetera. I think this probability is extremely low, but nothing can be excluded. I think the one scenario which is as likely as scenario one, which means no gas stoppage, is that some industries will be requested to reduce their gas consumption. In which case, there will be other industries like steel, cement, which will be reduced before we are forced to reduce our gas consumption because we are critical infrastructure, because we supply to the food and pharmaceutical industry. In this case, it might be that our gas is reduced by some volumes, like, whatever, that we get 80% of the gas or 70% or 60%. In this case, we will have our own gas reserves to complement it. If the government in Austria or in Germany said, "Yeah, you only get 70% of the gas," then we could for a certain period of time produce still 100% because we have our own reserve, which we've built up. Okay. Very clear. Maybe a second question on the capacity transition to packaging that you were mentioning after the last acquisition you have done. Could you please come back on the timing of those capacity transition? May I ask, are you asking now about the transaction of Essentra Packaging, or are you asking about the capital expenditures which we have done in our packaging business or are doing in our packaging business? No, no. About the transition to packaging. I mean, from the last acquisition you have done on paper, the transition to the packaging business. Okay. What do we supply internally? Look, we have the philosophy, as I said in the last video conference. We are not driven by this integration thinking. We have our cartonboard, and we have our folding cartons, and for each business does what is best for it. It's not per se a target to say we want to be integrated to such and such extent. We buy where we get the right products. Yes, of course, both in Eson Pac and in Essentra Packaging, which is not yet closed, only we expect it to be closed in Q4. Gives us the opportunity to integrate more FBB, because we are already a big supplier to the pharma industry, especially from Kwidzyn, but now more and more also from Kotkamills. That is not the primary driver of the acquisition. It's a positive side effect. Okay. Very clear. Thank you. Mm-hmm. Thank you. The next question comes from Paul de Thierry from Arke Advisers. Please go ahead with your question. Yes. Good morning, Peter, and thank you for taking my question. I've got a couple of specific questions and a couple of just more general questions. You mentioned the resilience of the end markets for MM Group. How much of the current demand do you think is due to your customers maybe building up inventory as they see supply issues over the next couple of quarters? And would you expect that then to unwind once the supply problems resolve themselves? And then the second of the specific questions is on the packaging contract side, how much of the business are long-term contracts, the two-three year contracts that you mentioned earlier? Yeah. Thank you, Paul. Question number one, resilience. We definitely know and also discuss with some customers very openly, they are building up stocks. What I do not know is this build up in stocks really something for the moment, and will be released, whatever, in November or February next year, or is it more a change of philosophy that companies generally keep a somewhat higher stock in order to be better prepared? If they are unwinding this, it will mean a short-term lower demand, but I would not be worried. I think the real dangers in fluctuating market is that demand is substantially down for an extended period because people are not building houses or not buying cars or whatever. In this case, it would be a temporary lower demand, and that we would talk here about a few weeks or so. I'm not worried about it. It's if it happens, yeah, then maybe we have to stop the one or the other machine for a week. On the contract side, I think we have with most multinationals typically two- three-year contracts, so probably half of our contracts in packaging are above with contracts longer than one year. Just as a supplementary question then to that last comment on the packaging contracts. How many of those contracts are due for renewal in the next two years as opposed to the next sort of year? I'm just trying to get an idea of how many are on sort of the old pricing structure, so to speak, for the next, say, the next 12 months. Yeah. I think for a variety of reasons, a lot of contracts are up for renewal. I think by spring next year, we will not have any. It's a bit too general, but we will have very few old contracts, if you will, for a better term. Okay. Some of them have been renegotiated, and that comes into effect in summer or in autumn. Some are now under renegotiation because they expire somewhere between November and March, this November and March next year. It will be a fairly small percentage, which and it's nothing to worry about, so to say. Okay, thank you. Then just a couple of general questions, and you are welcome to be brief in your answers. To give you a chance to talk about the key upsides of the group, you know, you've done a lot over the last few years. What would you regard as the sort of the three key upsides for the near term, medium term and long term? You know, maybe give you a chance to talk about an M&A pipeline. Just very briefly, what do you regard as the upside for the MM Group in particular? Yeah. Because at the MM, we think long term, I want to start with the long term upsides. The long term upsides are that we have not yet fully optimized, for instance, our Kwidzyn mill, which offers few, but a lot of potentials in terms of energy savings, better energy supply, but also potentially expansion of the mill. That goes also for Kotkamills, but especially for Kwidzyn. There should be upside for a number of years. The second one is that we also with this acquisition now of Essentra Packaging, we have multiple opportunities to reduce our specific costs. Just to give you one example, we've lowered our personnel costs in sales and supply chain compared to two years ago by 1/3. This is a consequence in Board & Paper. It was very helpful that we made the acquisitions, but the acquisitions give us, for instance, in Board, just an upside of 20%, and we could do more than that. We have the topic of automation and digitalization, where we are at the beginning of a learning curve. That's another potential. We have historically been, let's say, very decentralized. While we want to stay decentralized, there are a number of issues where we should create more synergies also within our legacy business and obviously including now the acquisitions, I think especially about procurement. That’s then more the short term over one-year, two-year horizon, whereas the CapEx to reduce energy, et cetera, in our mills is more a three-four -year situation. Okay. I hope that. Thank you. Gave you a flavor. Yeah, it does. No, it's really useful. Thank you so much. My final question, you know, from looking at your statements, you know, you seem to be very capable at sort of managing difficulties in the industry very well. The group appears to be quite agile for the industry. Can I just ask you, what are the one or two things that, you know, keep you awake at night at the moment? I mean, clearly we're in a volatile time in terms of supply constraints, changing pricing structures. Is there anything else that, you know, we should be aware of that maybe you worry about? What kept me awake at night was the strength of our team after the acquisitions, but that doesn't. Now I sleep very well because we really have broadened our management structure. Yes, what keeps one awake is to make wrong calls. Thank you for your complimentary words, but obviously we also did things wrong. For instance, we should have hedged much more one or two years ago, and would be fantastic. We haven't seen this development, and now we have to do such things like getting some gas storage, which is fairly expensive because we store it at the time when prices are high, and we get it out at the time when prices will probably be lower when this situation is finished. Maybe it was a waste of time. I think with a strong team, we act fast. We don't shy away to take decisions. Hopefully most of them are small, brighter ones. Overall, there is nothing which there isn't the one big topic which keeps us awake. I think we are better diversified now also from a plant or mill point of view. Yes, there are constantly new developments which are unforeseen, and that causes then the one or the other sleepless night, how to solve the one or the other issue. Thank you. Thanks very much for your comprehensive answers. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you, Paul. There is a follow-up question from Cole Hathorn from Jefferies. Please go ahead with your question. Morning. Thanks for taking my follow-up. It's basically on a longer-term view. I mean, you've timed it well to get more into the virgin grades and consolidated that market being a top three player. Has something changed, do you think, on the industry if we look forward from here? I mean, wood availability is gonna be a little bit more scarce with Russia out of the markets. Energy price is gonna be a little bit more volatile. Do you think the risk of new entrants or conversions from graphic to cartonboard are potentially a little bit less because some of these mills will need to invest more in energy, and it makes it less attractive, and then new investments consuming wood with availability being a little bit more restrained, become more challenging? Was that too optimistic to think that the longer-term view of new supply coming in being more challenging is true? I mean, maybe now I could go also back to Paul's question. What does keep me maybe awake at night is that there is too much optimism, and the expansion of new capacity in FBB is something which is worrying, especially if other projects which are not yet finalized. We see on the one hand the positive momentum in a bit more growth because of plastic replacement. Equally, our growth rates are still like what I made this long term, 2% or something like this. If there will be now capacity expansions which are already underway, and there are also potential new capacity expansion. If especially the one in Finland materializes, I'm very worried about the market. The danger is always in the paper industry that people get too carried away in good times, expanding their capacities. Thank you. Thank you. There is another follow-up question from Markus Remis from Raiffeisen Bank International. Please go ahead with your question. Yeah. Thank you. On the M&A synergy realization, you indicated you're well above the, like, EUR 25 million. Can you provide us an updated figure here and also related to Essentra, where would you see kind of synergies coming out, say, over the next one-three years? Let's say on Kotkamills and Kwidzyn, where we have now obviously good visibility, the number is above EUR 40 million. Again, things are fluctuating, and therefore I want to stay also cautious. Maybe it's a bit more, but this always depends then also on how things develop. The statement we had on Essentra, what I'm now looking to Stephan Sweerts-Sporck, what did we say officially? We said that there is substantial synergy potential. Yeah, we didn't give any. To quantify. Any number. You see, it's always ahead of time difficult. Only if you open the books. By the way, Eson Pac, which was now a fairly small acquisition, but we found many more synergies. It's just when you compare for the first time your procurement prices, it can be that you end up that they are very similar. It can be that one or the other has much lower prices. And then again, it depends on market circumstances, how you can leverage it. But I think it is at this point in time, it's a high single-digit number. We really have to go into detail then to see what can really be achieved. All right. Okay. Thank you. There are no further questions. Yeah. Do you want to? I may take the floor. Thanks very much for joining the meeting, and thank you very much for your questions. I think as an outlook, it's very difficult to predict. It's always difficult to predict the next quarter or half year, and this time maybe it's even more difficult. The important thing at the end of the day is, yes, we will have many surprises on our way, but we have cost-efficient mills. We have a strong team. We have diversified operations. We have a track record. We've shown that also despite COVID supply chain crisis, et cetera, that also our CapEx programs are well underway in packaging with no cost increases compared to budget at all. In Board & Paper, there are some, but at the end of the day, it's in the single-digit percentage, which in these times, I think is also quite an achievement. We are confidently looking into the future, and we'll also be very careful how we expand capacities, because probably we will have now some 12 months or whatever which will be a tougher time. Thank you very much for listening to us, and have a good day.