Welcome to the 25th WAM Capital annual general meeting. This is a hybrid meeting, held here in person at the Museum of Sydney and also online. I'd like to acknowledge the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation and pay my respects to elders past and present. Thank you for joining us and for your support of WAM Capital. Before we officially open the meeting, I'd like to say that our thoughts and prayers are with all people who are in conflict right now, particularly in the Middle East and Eastern Europe. I'd like to point you to a disclaimer which is displayed for you on the screen, for you to read. I am Geoff Wilson, Chairman of the Board of Directors. Joining me today in person are my fellow directors, Kate Thorley, James Chirnside, Matthew Pancino, and joining us online, our other directors, Lindsay Mann, Dr. Philippa Ryan, and Angus Barker. Acting in the capacity of moderator is Joint Company Secretary, Jesse Hamilton, who's also the CFO of Wilson Asset Management, and he'll be assisting with any questions during the meeting. Scott Waddell, in the front row here, is our auditor from Pitcher Partners and is available for any questions on the financial statements. As it's just after 10 o'clock and a quorum is present, I declare the meeting open. The notice of meeting has been circulated to shareholders. In the absence of any objections, I'll be proceeding on the basis that the notice has been read. I encourage you all to read the chairman's address, announced to the ASX in full. It's a, you know, a three-odd-page document where we've tried to go into quite a bit of detail. I'll talk a little bit about the outlook and a few specific comments in a minute. Shareholders who've logged into the webinar with your username and password will have the opportunity to submit questions online and ask audio questions, as well as vote on all resolutions. If you're joining online, questions can be submitted at any time. If you're online and you would like to ask a verbal question, an audio question facility is available during the meeting. For those joining us in person, if you can please wait for the microphone to come to you because, you know, so the people online can hear the question clearly. Voting today will be conducted by way of a poll on all items of business. When I open the poll, the voting icon, which I'll be opening in a few minutes, the voting icon will appear on the navigation bar. Simply select one of the options to cast your vote. If you change your mind, you can change your mind anytime until the voting is closed. I now declare the voting open on all items. In terms of, you know, looking at the last 12 months, you know, it has been... Well, in terms of the WAM Capital portfolio in the 12 months to June, the WAM Capital portfolio has performed strongly, where the team outperformed the All Ords, and actually outperformed the Small Ords. So it was an extremely, you know, to me, extremely pleasing result. One of the frustrations, I think from a shareholder's perspective, is probably a decision that was made at the start of COVID was to continue paying, you know, the high, fully franked dividend. A dividend which would've amounted to a little over 10% on assets, fully franked, which on a grossed-up basis is close to 15%. A s we're paying out these super yields, then if the underlying portfolio over the four-year period since COVID has only gone up about 9% or so, and we're paying out 16% or 15%-odd, then effectively, you're getting a reduction in asset value. I think that's been a frustration for us all. I suppose you just have to be aware that in terms of your return, you have to look at your pre-tax return as a combination of yield and capital. If you're getting a super yield, you know, then it might... That, you know, can, in some instances, and in this instance, be at the expense of capital. In terms of the dividend, you'd be aware that we've just, we've just gone ex, WAM Capital of AUD 0. 775 dividend, and the company, and in terms of the profit reserve, there's AUD 0. 66 left in the profit reserve. So that profit reserve has to increase for the AUD 0. 77 cent dividend to be paid out again. Jesse, have you got the figures out on, in terms of the portfolio, what it needs to increase from here for the Profit Reserve to be topped up again? Yep. Yeah. So from here, we need an additional 7.2% performance to cover the interim fully franked dividend, so for it to go from AUD 0.066 - AUD 0.0775, and a 15.6% performance to also cover another AUD 0.0775 at 30 June next year. Yeah, and that is from, Today ... today. Yeah, that's adjusting for the fall in the market and the portfolio. You know, because the market's down, you know, 3% odd so far this month, we just calculated those figures, as of this morning. Yeah, so it, you know, so that's broadly, you know, where we are. What I'll do is I'll move over now to the formal part of the meeting. Yeah, and then we'll open it up for any questions. In terms of the formal part of the meeting, there are six items of business for the AGM today, as set out in the notice of meeting. Five items are to be voted on. The notice of meeting and explanatory memorandum were circulated to shareholders, and in the absence of any objections, I'll proceed on the basis these items are taken as read. I note Boardroom, the returning officer for today's meeting, and will be conducting our poll. I further note that resolution one of five are subject to voting exclusions, as outlined in the notice of meeting. The board recommends approval of each resolution, and as Chairman, I'll be voting all open voting for each resolutions, each resolution. We'll advise the ASX as soon as the results are available, and that'll be later today. You can submit any questions online at any time, or any questions you have on the financial report, now, please. The first item of business is to receive and consider the financial statement, the directors' report, and the auditors' report for the company for the year ended 30th of June, 2023. As I mentioned, our auditor, Scott Waddell, is with us here in the front row. There's no resolution on this matter. It's not required. Now, I'll just ask Jesse, are there any questions online? Are there any questions in the room on this? No. There being no questions, let's go to the items of business. Resolution one relates to the adoption of the remuneration report. Please submit any questions you have online now. The proxies, we'll put the, you know, the, put them up on the screen. Just as chair, I'll be voting in favor of the reso lutions. Now, are there any questions online, Jesse, for this? Any questions in the room? Please raise your hand. No. I now put the motion that the resolution be approved as set out in the notice of meeting. If you're a shareholder online and eligible to vote, please vote. Anyone in the room, please, fill out, please, vote by, by pressing the relevant buttons on your machine. Resolution two relates to the re-election of Director Dr. Philippa Ryan. N ow I'll just pass over to Pip, who'd like to make a couple of comments to you as chair. Oh, sorry, before that, we have a question. Yes? These machines are not allowing us to vote on resolution one. They've only got resolution two, three, and four. So something's gone wrong with your system. Okay. Me too. That's good. We'll get that, you know. Good pick up. We'll get our technical experts, we'll get Boardroom's technical experts there immediately. The good thing is, about voting on resolution, any of the resolutions, we can do that till I close the poll. As soon as I'll pass. Now we'll go over to Pip, who'd like, or Dr. Ryan, who'd like to say a few words about her, you know, being re-elected as a director, and then we'll come. Actually, does it, is it working now or- No. No. Okay. I'll come back to you when it's... Can anyone who can't vote on resolution one, if you put your hand up. Thank you. That's everyone. Okay. Resolution one and five. Oh, the ones with the exclusions. Oh, so you might have our, Four as well. You might have our voting ones, that we can't because we can't vote on them. So they've excluded you. Okay. I think people online might have the same issue, so- Okay. We're just restarting. Maybe the same issue. We'll get that sorted out, and I'll report back during the meeting. I will keep the voting open until we are now 100% sure that everyone in the room has voted and people online has voted as well. So now, Pip... Have we got Pip online? I am here, Geoff. Thank you, Pip. I'll pass it to you. Yeah, thank you very much. It's lovely to be here, and thank you for the opportunity to speak to this motion and my re-election as a non-executive director. For those who don't know me, I'm an Honorary Associate Professor at the Australian National University, and my expertise sits around digital economies and the law. I've published on this topic, as well as the role of blockchain technology in promoting the sustainable development goals. So while I'm not a shareholder in WAM Capital, the skin in the game that I have as a board member sits around my expertise and professionalism. I am not a practicing barrister anymore, having practiced for 20 years, but I continue to be a member of the New South Wales Bar Association, and I continue to give presentations and write and publish in this area. So I retired as a NED from Lander & Rogers, a national Australian law firm, after a statutory period of it, which was then, continued under an option, and that was a very enriching experience and very different to this one. So my role on this board is to bring diversity in relation to expertise, as well as perspective from the angle of someone who has a doctorate in breach of trust and conflicts of interest. I welcome any questions, of course. Thank you very much, Geoff. Thank you. Thank you, Pip. Do we have any, any questions online for Pip? No. Any questions in the room? No. I know from my perspective as chair, there's, and, you know, there's a lot of familiar faces here that have been on the journey with us, as investors, for a period of time. What we've you know, what as a board we've tried to do is keep the corporate memory, of, you know, some of, you know, with some of the longest serving, members of the board, but really add high-quality expertise. Y ou'd notice, you know, with whether it's Matt or Pip or Angus, you know, the last three directors that have come on all have, you know, what we see as an organization or as a board, some really high-quality skills that add to the diversity of the thought process and the information that we can at a board table get access to. So yeah, I'd strongly support, you know, Pip being re-elected as a director. Sorry, Jesse, we checked. No online questions? No. In terms of the open proxies, which have been granted to me as Chair, I'll be voting in favor of the resolution. The proxies are up on the board. I'll now put the motion that Dr. Philippa Ryan be re-elected as set out in the notice of meeting. If you're a shareholder or proxyholder and eligible to vote online, could you now please complete your vote? Anyone in the room, you can do number two? Can you do one, and you can do five as well. Okay. So, obviously, that technological hiccup has been sorted out. So that's great. So please vote for that. Now I'd like to go to resolution three, is the relating to the re-election of Matthew Pancino. Matthew, you're here in person. Would you like to just, you know, make a few comments about your experience? Thanks, Geoff. Look, just by way of introduction, first of all, thank you for everyone coming today. By way of introduction, again, my name is Matt Pancino. I'm currently an executive director for Google in Asia Pacific, and I'm also a non-executive director for Greenstone Financial Services and SydWest Multicultural Services. I just want to thank both management, my peers on the board, and obviously, shareholders for letting me fulfill my first three-year term. It's been a wonderful experience. In addition to watching the highly professional, WAM asset management team deal with some pretty challenging times post-COVID, it's also been really good for me to be part of the board, where we've seen Wilson Asset Management really lift a lot of its capabilities internally, particularly around non-financial risk, cyber risks, and operational resilience, and even adding some new capabilities within the organization. Which I think it sets itself up for the objectives and the future growth of Wilson Asset Management, particularly around: How do we ensure that we provide a strong ongoing strong dividend yield, capital growth, while preserving capital? I look forward to, hopefully, serving another three-year term and continuing to input with on my skills, which are pretty much around technology, non-financial risk, and cyber risk. Thank you. Thanks, Matt. Now, do we have any questions online, Jesse, for Matt? Any questions in the room? No. Great. For the open proxies, which have been granted to the chair, I'll be voting in favor of the resolution. I'll now put the motion that Mr. Matthew Pancino be re-elected as set out in the notice of meeting. If you're a shareholder or proxyholder and eligible to vote online, please do. Anyone in the room, please also vote. Resolution four relates to the election of Angus Barker. Angus, you're online. We'll go over to you to say a few words. Thanks, Angus. Thank you. Thank you, Chairman, and good morning to all my fellow shareholders in WAM Capital. My name is Angus Barker, and as you consider for vote for me on the board of WAM Capital, I thank you for the opportunity to make some brief remarks about the value add I'll bring to WAM Capital, and through that, to the value of all our shareholdings in WAM. As you may have read in the notice paper, I've got lengthy experience in mergers and acquisitions and equity markets with global investment banks, and given the value creation that WAM Capital has delivered through buying other listed investment companies, trading at discounts to net asset value over recent years, those skills may prove handy in the future. But over the course of 2023, and for now, my background that's of special value to Geoff and the team at Wilson Asset Management, is my eight years' experience working as a senior advisor to the Federal Government, and in particular, in the Treasury portfolio. I know how government ticks, and I know how to help influence outcomes. So I'm working closely with Geoff and his team as they defend the integrity of Australia's dividend imputation and franking system, which is currently under attack from two measures proposed by the government and soon to be considered by the Senate. I'll be working hard for you as shareholders to help the Wilson Asset Management team as they constructively engage with the government, the Senate crossbench, and the Opposition, to try to ensure the franking system, which has served Australia and kept our economy strong over three decades, is not salami-sliced to failure. It's happened before in the U.K. It could happen here, too. As a WAM Capital shareholder, I share your aspirations for WAM Capital to deliver fully franked dividends and growth over time by investing in the very best small and mid-cap companies on the ASX. I appreciate the trust our Chair, Geoff Wilson, and my fellow directors have placed in me through my appointment early this year. I hope to receive your support for re-election to the board of WAM Capital today, and if elected, I'll work hard to repay the trust you've placed in me over the coming years. Thank you. Right. Look, thank you. Thank you, Angus. For the open proxies, which have been granted to the chair, I'll be voting in favor of the resolution. In terms of the proxies, they're up on the screen. I'll now put the motion that Mr. Angus Barker be re-elected as set out in the notice of meeting. If you're a shareholder or proxyholder and eligible to vote online, could you do so now? Anyone in the room, please also, could you vote now? W e look forward to having all the non-execs remain on the board. A s I said at the start, you know, these, you know, these three non-execs, you know, them, they've really been handpicked by us in terms of, skill bases that could add significantly, to WAM Capital. In terms of resolution five, that relates to directors' fee cap, a nd probably before we go to questions, I'd just like to note what we try to do as a board is to not have any flexibility in the fee, in the fee cap. S o when we put a new director on, then we need to go to shareholders to increase the fee cap. Otherwise, we like to have it pretty much at the ceiling, so then it's obviously more challenging to increase the non-executive directors' remuneration. So Jesse, just on that, on the resolution five, which relates to the directors' fee cap, have we got any questions online? No questions. We are still having some voting difficulties for the people online, so bear with us, and we'll keep the polls open as long as possible. It should refresh shortly. Okay. D o we have any questions in the room on the fee cap? No? You see the proxies on the screen, in terms of for and against. I'll be voting those proxies granted to the chair. I'll be voting them in favor of the resolution. I'll now put the motion that the resolution be approved, set out in the notice of meeting. So therefore, anyone in the room will still have the ability to vote on resolution five a nd we have the view that people online, resolution five, they mightn't be able to vote at this point in time, but we'll keep the voting open. Just a reminder, anyone who's already submitted their vote ahead of the meeting doesn't need to vote again if you're having any difficulties. If you've already submitted your vote and you're having any difficulties at the moment, you don't need to submit again. The proxy you submitted before the AGM still counts for the voting. Okay, but there's still some, you know, the votes online. So what I'll do now, and I mentioned, yeah, the results will be announced on the ASX as quick as we can. There's no formal business for the meeting, but now I will just take informal business before we close the meeting and close the poll. Yes, please. Chairman, Geoff. Oh, and actually, we'll just wait for the microphone, just so that people online can also hear the questions. Thank you. Chairman Geoff, Elwyn Sherman from Brisbane. Mr. Chairman, following on from the recent referendum, it looks like the federal and state governments and other entities will be pursuing four issues. The first is the Truth and Justice Commission. I don't know whether there's any implications for the share market in that. The second issue is treaties. Now, this is something that I'm not sure whether there's any or financial implications there or not. I don't know whether you can advise us on that, Geoff. The third issue is Makarrata. Now, I'm damned if I know what that's all about. Oh, my, my understanding is Makarrata is treaties. Yeah. T hen the final one, which is the real snake in the grass, is reparations. Now, I've heard something about that being expressed as a percentage of GDP. If that's the case, that could amount to a very, very large sum of money, and I was just wondering if you could tell us whether there's any implications for the market in general or this particular company? Yeah. Well, look, one of the good things is we've got our portfolio manager here, Sam, who's, yeah, who's in the cut and thrust of, you know, what happens on a minute-by-minute basis. Can we pass the microphone to Sam in terms of, you know, where we are, yeah, in that, and, and whether from an investment perspective, you're seeing, you know, any, any risk or any uncertainty? That'd be great. Thanks. Yeah, definitely. Great question, and thank you. So as far as the referendum is concerned, our view internally is that we don't think there is a material risk to markets broadly in Australia and the bread and butter of small to mid-caps that WAM Capital invest in, so it hasn't been an overt focus of the team. Lately, the team has been, I guess, more focused on, I guess, what's been happening in terms of expectations around inflation re-accelerating across the world, and you've seen a spike in oil prices recently, and that's really what's been driving, I guess, this sort of risk-off sentiment in markets at the moment. T hat's why you've seen markets take a dive lower over sort of the back end of September and October. I guess that's what's really front and foremost for the investment team. Yet that doesn't change, I guess, our investment process. Like, we're still looking for undervalued growth companies with catalysts, and I think the investment performance has played out and demonstrated that over the last three months and obviously FY 2023 as well. Yeah, and in theory, you know, the vote has occurred, so, you know, from a... You'd assume the government understands, yeah, well, how everyone voted a nd, you know, if you read the comments, the political commentators, I mean, you look at the poll, I think it was at this morning's poll or the Roy Morgan poll, where the Libs are actually in front for the first time. So I would say the things that you're potentially concerned about, they will get resolved in a way that's positive for all Australians, logically, because I think, you know, the government, yeah, yeah... I mean, the government, you'd assume, will digest, you know, what happened and then work out, you know, the best way forward. So, yeah, so that, the, that's that one. Any other- Just before we jump into any other, it's just a voting update. So do apologize for this. So online, everyone should now be able to submit their votes. So please do submit all your votes again online. The system has been completely refreshed, and also for everyone in the room, unfortunately, your devices have just been refreshed to enable voting on resolution one and five, but any votes submitted on the other resolutions will just need to be resubmitted again. So we've got a representative from Boardroom here as well that'll be able to help anyone, but we'll keep the polls open all the way through to 10:45. If you have any difficulties, just raise your hand and we'll have someone come and help you. Yeah. So effectively, the polls will be closed at 10:45? Yeah, and so everyone in the room needs to vote from two to four again. One to five. Oh, one-five again. Thank you. A ny other questions in the room? I've got some questions submitted- All right ... ahead of the AGM. Perfect. Thanks, Jesse. So we've got a question: When will WAM Capital's value return to pre-COVID levels? When will WAM Capital's value return to pre-COVID levels? Well, it's really a function of two things. It's a function of the performance of the underlying portfolio and a function of the amount of dividend that's paid out. Just to look at it the other way, you know, I mentioned in the chairman's address when I was talking about the effectively very high level of dividends that have been paid out, you know, a little over, well, on NTA, a little over 10%, on the current NTA, on an after-tax basis, which is nearly 15% on a pre-tax basis. Yeah, when COVID started, a lot of directors, sorry, a lot of boards cut their dividends, and we had the profit reserve, and we had the franking, so our logic was to keep paying those high dividends. Now, as you know, one investor I was talking to, they said, "Well, what if you cut it? You know, what if back then, four years ago, you cut it in half?" Well, if we cut it in half, then effectively the share price would be, you know, AUD 0.28 higher because, you know, AUD 0.28 hadn't been paid out. So really, to get back, I think the pre-COVID levels would be the +AUD 2. Yeah, it's the premium and discount. You've got to adjust that in, and then it's what w e can achieve. We're saying to keep paying the dividend. We said in the chairman's address, but also it's in the announced result, that we need to pay. We need to return 15% + to keep paying that dividend, b ecause in theory, we make 15%, we pay tax, and then we can pay 10% out fully franked. So, you know, to get it back to that AUD 2 level, then it's, it really has to be, you know, it's probably, you know, three or four years of 20% type of returns. That's what we'd have to achieve. J ust on a similar note- W e can give you the exact... Like, it's a mathematical equation, there's no... We can... I f they tell us, if they email us the price they wanna know, and then we can, we can just tell them what we have to achieve to do that and over what time. Just on dividends: so will the same fully franked dividends continue or be increased for the foreseeable future, or will they be reduced? Our ability to pay the dividend is a function of the profit reserve and the amount of franking we have. At the moment, we have AUD 0.066 in the profit reserve. So if we had to pay a dividend now, the next dividend is AUD 0.066. So we need to make another cent and a bit to pay AUD 0.07 and a bit. To do that, either the portfolio needs to increase, is it, what was it? 7.5%, Jesse, from this morning's value. That's adjusting for the portfolio being down this month. You know, the market's down 3%, and the portfolio did really well in the first three months. It was outperforming, we're still outperforming, but the market's down for the year. That's between now and now and when we pay that dividend. T hen, yeah, and then if we, if we, like, if we run out of profit reserve, then, you know, we'll rebase. Yeah, then, then in theory, yeah, we've got to get profit reserve again to pay the dividend, and then we need to pay the tax on the profit to get the franking, or the tax comes from, yeah, from dividends we receive from other companies. W ith our portfolio, because it's mids and smalls, the yield on the, the portfolio is probably 2%-2.5%. Now, where the other market yields, probably, I think it's something 3.8% and 77% franked or something like that. No other questions. Any other questions in the room? Yes. Yeah. Thank you. Yes, I've heard your comments about the dividends and effectively using that as an excuse for the falling value of the shares. I don't really accept that because I've got a portfolio of about 40 or 50 shares. They all pay dividends, and in general, since I've bought WAM, they've gone up in price. So I've had a rise in capital, and I get dividends paid. So when I bought WAM, my idea was that someone was going to manage this, look at the market as a whole, pay me dividends, and hopefully, there would be an increase in the capital value. Well, that hasn't happened. So, I mean, I don't mean to be flippant, but you can ask me what my portfolio is, and you'll do a lot better than what you people are picking. Yeah. My question is, it's really not acceptable to say we're paying reasonable dividends. So are a lot of other companies. I think you need to explain why the shares have fallen so dramatically. Thank you. Yeah, like, I hear your question clearly. Let me just take you through. We're an investment company. WAM Capital is an investment company, so we invest in other companies, and whether they go up in value or down in value is whether we make profits or losses, and we can only pay dividends when we make profits. So effectively, we're not an operating business, we're an investment business. So say we start with a portfolio, let's say four years ago, we start with a portfolio of AUD 1, and the portfolio goes up 10%. Then, you know, then it goes up 10%, say, pre-tax, then we have to pay tax. So we have to pay 3% tax, so we've actually made 7% and b ecause we'd had profits that we'd made in previous years, we actually paid you pretty much 10% on assets. So we actually paid you more than what we made in the 12-month period. So we can only pay out what we make, a nd how we make money, we're not like an operating business, we're not making widgets and selling them. We're investing in the market, and we make money when the portfolio goes up. So over the four years since the GFC started, the portfolio has gone up, I think, 8% or 9% per annum, b ut we've actually been paying you 15% per annum. Well, we've had to make 15%, because then we pay, you know, 5% tax or 4.5% tax, and then we're paying you 10% fully franked. So that's how an investment company works. So an operating company, you know, you've got... You're actually, you're selling, you're selling something. We're investing. So if the portfolio just goes down, we can't pay any dividend. So what we're saying is, effectively, what we've been paying you more than the value of the portfolio going up since COVID a nd like, the second year of COVID, the market was down 18%, and we were down 20%. Last year, you know, the actual portfolio, the underlying portfolio actually outperformed the market, but it didn't give us enough money to pay... It gave us enough money to pay last year's dividend, but it hasn't given us enough money to pay this year's dividend. So far this year, the portfolio is... Well, as of today, because the market's down 3% this month, the portfolio is down. It's down 1%. So if the portfolio stays there and doesn't go up, we just can't pay a dividend, because that's how we make money. You sort of understand that? Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. No. Oh, sorry. Yeah. Yeah, and also, but yeah, the premium. It was at a bigger premium. Now it's at a lesser premium. But yeah, I'll ask the question back. Yeah, sorry, we just need that. But yeah, sorry, yeah. I agree with everything you said, but then how do we increase... How do you approve an increase in directors' fees after telling us all that? Yeah, well- 'Cause like it was 36% or something voted against it. Yeah. Well, I mean, you're the shareholder, so whatever it is, you know, we're adding one director. Yeah, it's a AUD 1.7 billion dollar company, WAM Capital, and we pay directors' fees. What was the total directors' fees? AUD 190,000. I think if you look at every listed company that has a board of directors of the quality we have on our board, they'll be paid, if I had to guess, AUD 750,000, million dollars. Yeah, so you're actually getting an exceptional deal in terms of, you know, AUD 190,000 for a board of directors of the quality we have on a AUD 1.7 billion dollar business. Any other. Yes, please. Just wait one second, we'll just get the- Behind you. Thanks. Yeah, I take the points that you have been making, and I take the point that this gentleman up here has been making, b ut there's one anecdotal thing that I just hear around among my own friends and investors, and it's simply because the interest rates are up. People are simply selling out and investing their money at 5%, where it's safe, and raking in the money and simply not worrying about investing. A lot of people are doing that, without getting too deeply involved in whether the market's going up or not, and also worrying about we're not in resources. We're in a very limited segment of small to medium companies, which haven't performed anything like the resources sector have. So either people are buying or selling, and they're going into resources, or else they're selling, and they're going into cash a nd that's just the anecdotal thing that I'm getting among my contemporaries. Yeah, well, you've got your finger on the pulse, because that is what is happening b ut it doesn't, you know, take away, a n operating company like sells something, like, you know, sells a pen, and it makes a margin from selling the pen, and then it allows it to pay a dividend out. Now, what we've got is we've got assets that we invest, and so if those assets go down in value, we can't pay you a dividend, a nd if they go up in value, then we can put some of that money in a Profit Reserve, and then we can pay you a dividend. So it's actually understanding that. I n terms of the, you know, what we've actually... You know, since the GFC, what we've paid out in terms of, you know, the year that the portfolio was down, you know, the market was down 18%, and the portfolio was down 20%. You'd say, if you're an operating company, you no one would have got a dividend that year. That was three years ago. But we actually paid out, broadly, close to a 10% fully franked yield, which that's 10% after tax, so it was about a 14% pre-tax. So that year, our assets, they went down by 20%, and we paid out, 4.5% in tax and 10% in the dividend. So that year, the assets went down 35%. So yeah. S o then all of a sudden, you're from a base 35% lower. So, you know, say last year, the portfolio, the investment guys, you know, did a really good job. You know, they outperformed the market, and they outperformed. As you said, we tend to focus on small and medium-sized companies, and they outperformed that by about 8%, which was, you know, that's really good work. But it doesn't. You know, how does that help shareholders? You know, what it's done is it's increased the profit reserve so we can keep paying dividends, but we've got to keep, you know, increasing the profit reserve. I n terms of, you know, you actually hit the nail on the head there as well. If you look at the mid and small cap space, it is, you know, it's very unloved. You know, the small and mid-cap sector has underperformed over the last two years. It's underperformed the market by about 20%. So, yeah, and the, you know... A ll that tells me is at some point in time, it's gonna outperform the market because everything goes back to equilibrium, and over time, the small and mid caps, they, you know, they catch up, and they actually end up giving you better growth over time. But it's just been a difficult period, and it's been a function of what you exactly said. The rising interest rates, it's been difficult for that sector. Well, I'm very happy with the dividends you've been paying me. They're remarkable. Well, we've got to keep... Yeah, I know, they are remarkable. That's the thing, they are remarkable because we're paying so much. But we've- Yeah. Yeah, like, the challenge is to keep doing it. Yes, I quite understand that. Whether we can or not is really- Well, you probably can't, but I accept that, and I accept that when I bought in, it was at a premium, and I just happened to buy shares that were at a premium. Well, well- Yeah. that's what happens in life, you know? Even now, they are still trading above their NTA. Yeah. A lot of... M any, I can't exactly say, but some LICs are certainly well below their NTA, and I think that given the market situations, I think you've been doing remarkably well, really, and I can't say that I'm unhappy. Yeah. I congratulate you, actually. Oh, thank you. Well, it's the guys doing the hard work. I'm the- Yeah. I'm the one that- I think they are. Yeah. No, thank you for that. Any other questions? Well, thank you. Any other questions online, Jesse? That's it. Now, in terms of the voting, so we got the voting all... Is the voting- I believe so. Yeah. So we can close the polls now. Okay. Close the meeting. Thank you. I'd just like to close the meeting. I declare the AGM closed. I'd also like to thank the board of WAM Capital. I'd like to thank everyone from Wilson Asset Management who's managing money on our behalf. You know, thank you very much. I'd like to thank shareholders. I know it's been a difficult period of time, and we are, like, we love what we're doing, you know, we understand what we're doing, and, you know, hope that we can continue to deliver solid returns and dividends to you over time. Thank you very much.