Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the BCV 2022 Half- Year Results Conference Call and Live Webcast. I'm Moira, the conference call operator. I would like to remind you that all participants will be in listen only mode, and the conference is being recorded. The presentation will be followed by a Q&A session. You can register for questions at any time by pressing star and one on your telephone. Webcast viewers may submit their questions in writing via the relevant field. For operator assistance, please press star and zero. The conference must not be recorded for publication or broadcast. For the call today, the speakers will refer to the slides, which are available for viewing on the IR section of the BCV website since this morning. At this time, it's my pleasure to hand over to Mr. Pascal Kiener, CEO of BCV. Please go ahead, sir. Thank you. Good afternoon, everybody. Good morning for the ones calling from the U.S., or in the U.S. Let me jump directly to page five. As you've seen, we have quite very good results in this first half of 2022. All figures are up more or less, except assets under management. Basically, the main issue here is the investment performance. I think you know the financial market as well as myself, and performance was negative, so AUM are slightly down. Now let me jump on page six. If I take the main business area or the main business volume, so mortgages are again up 2%. This is totally in line with the previous year, where we had a growth between 3.5% and 5% on average, so here we are on the 4% trend. The market, the mortgage market is still dynamic. I expect, though, a slowdown in this market due to the increase in interest rates. Probably we will see that in the next six-12 months. For the first half, the market was still very dynamic, so we're growing more or less like the market here. Other loans, here you have different businesses in the corporate business. I will comment on that later in the presentation. Slightly up. Deposits are stable, but I mean, there are a couple of effects here. As you will see, they are up for SMEs and retail and private banking, and down in the corporate business, mostly due just to a couple of clients reacting to market interest rates, et cetera. They decided to withdraw some funds, which is not a bad thing in this period of negative interest. AUM Thomas will go into detail into that. Maybe I'd just like to cover some points. We are losing a member of the board, Mr. Ochsner has decided to step down at the end of June 2023 after seven years. We regret that, but he wants to take advantage of life in the next couple of years. He's almost seventy, so he decided to step down. He was also the chair of the Audit Committee, so we are going to have to look for somebody of a similar caliber for this role, which is quite important. As you know, because it has been communicated recently, the head of Private Banking is leaving the executive board, and Mr. Christian Steinmann is going to replace him. Christian Steinmann is the current head of Private Banking, Credit Suisse (Schweiz) AG, as well as the regional head of Credit Suisse (Schweiz) AG, which is the French part of Switzerland for foreigners in the call. A couple of information. Maybe as you know, that I started seven years ago a huge initiative based on client service. I think this is key for our business. Quality of client service, client experience, and you see that for the first time we are seen as the most frequented bank in the Canton of Vaud. Maybe two points on page eight. I think for the financial ratings, I mean, quite clear to, for everybody, we had those very good excellent rating, I must say, in the last couple of years. They were just confirmed this year. I wanted to take just some time to talk about those ESG rating. MSCI decided to upgrade us from BBB to AA. You know, that it is the second-highest rating. I think it doesn't show a significant difference in our ESG approach. I think MSCI had a kind of a methodology problem with some continental banks, especially with BCV, and we intervened. We discussed with them, and they decided to review their method, and they acknowledged that they had a problem. This is why we have this huge jump from DDD to AA. Triple D was clearly wrong, and double A is probably closer to reality. Ethos, which is a MSCI in Switzerland, let's put it like that, similar kind of agency, and we have the second-highest rating in their rating. Quite good. From this side, I think as well from a financial point of view, our ratings are excellent and also our ESG ratings. Now let's talk a bit about business. Retail banking doing quite well, 2% in loans. Customer deposits increasing, which is not something that we look for in those negative interest time. On the other hand, we haven't given negative interest rate on customer deposits or to those kind of customers, saying that those guys are quite they have an inertia. They will be there when the rates are going up. We believe this is nevertheless the cheapest source of refinancing for a continental bank or for any bank almost. We believe that since we were able to attract some of those funds to attract some new customer here, that they will remain once the interest rates are going up. They will stay with BCV. From that point of view, it was a bit, probably a bit difficult in the last few years to manage those funds. Actually I think we did it quite well with our asset liability management team. Now we believe this is an asset going forward once the interest rates are in positive territory. You see revenues, operating profit are up. Basically increase in revenue is very simple to explain. This is driven by all payment transactions in credit cards, ATM, foreign exchange, et cetera. 2020 and 2021 were bad years because of COVID, less consumption, lockdown. People could not really travel, vacation, et cetera. This is why now 2022 was a normal year and we are back here on the normal track on those sources of revenues. Retail banking doing quite well. Corporate, I think we have to differentiate between different business lines, but you see that the numbers are quite good as well, especially in terms of revenues. SME, quite stable. Deposits slightly down, loans slightly up. Those COVID-19 bridge loans, this is a program issued by the Swiss federal government to give liquidity to SMEs and companies in Switzerland during the COVID period. We have here put a number. 40% of those loans. I mean, we issued I think CHF 700 million for 6,000 customers. As of today, already 40% in terms of volume are paid back. In terms of number of loans, it is 25%. That means it has grown quite well. This is also an indication that the economy in the canton is doing quite well. Maybe another number in 2022, this was the first year that bank started the amortization program. Those customers now have to amortize over a seven or eight years period. I don't remember exactly. This year was the first year, and 98% had no problem to pay the first amortization payment. That shows for us, in terms of risk, it's not an issue because the risk is borne by the Swiss Confederation. This is just an indicator that the economy is doing quite well. Real estate firm, you see the numbers, we talk about maybe later on the real estate market. Still doing quite well. I do expect a slowdown due to raising interest rates, but in those numbers you don't see that yet. Large corporate, and this is where we have the decrease in deposits. This is quite normal. Those guys are professional and they go where they get the better return for their money. This is not a problem for us, those kind of things. Trade finance. Let's spend a bit of time on trade finance. For BCV, this is a business volume exposure between CHF 2 billion and CHF 3 billion. This is not very big compared to our loan book. Maximum of 10%, maybe not even. Trade finance banks and trade and traders basically around the Lake of Geneva, there are many traders. Those guys were quite exposed to Ukraine and Russia. I mean, you know that Ukraine is exporting a lot of steel and agro products, wheat, corn, et cetera. Already in November, December, we had a feeling that the things could go very badly over there. We decided to reduce significantly our exposure. Many people said, "Yeah, Mr. Putin is a bit arguing, but he will never attack or invade Ukraine." We were quite doubtful, so we decided to reduce dramatically our exposure, not only to Ukraine, but also to Russia or to, let's say, Russian-owned traders or assets. Really it was a very good decision because when the problem occurred, if I remember well, on the twenty-fourth of February, we had exposure, but it was significantly reduced compared to November. Actually, I can tell you today that we stopped everything related to Ukraine or Russia in terms of trade finance activities. That we're going to have minor losses, minor risk of provision. All those numbers, I mean the two or three cases where we still have some issues, they are fully provisioned, fully in the H1 2022 numbers. No more risk regarding trade finance in Ukraine or Russia. Which is a very good news because it was not easy from the start. Now you can imagine that we are no longer taking any transactions in those two countries or related countries. That's not only Russia and Ukraine, all the countries in the region, like Belarus, for example. We have significantly reduced the number of transactions and the number of customers we have in those areas. I mean, the customers are here in Lausanne, but the transactions take place in those areas. At the same time, there was this increase of raw material prices. Basically in terms of volume, the volume are quite stable. The number of transactions are down, but in terms of volume and thus in terms of revenues, this is very stable compared to last year. Finally, as you can see the number, our corporate business is quite resilient. Very limited provision needs. I think that's it for this chart. Wealth management. Again, here this is a collection of businesses. This is private banking for private people. This is asset management for institutional investors, for pension fund, et cetera. This is also our subsidiaries, Piguet Galland, which is a traditional small private banking operation here in Canton of Vaud, as well as in Geneva. You see the impact of the market here, on the performance, on the AUM. Again, here, the mortgage business, which is quite important for us, if you look at the revenues. If I take private clients, this is more a 50/50. It's a private banking business, but it's also a mortgage business for wealthy people. You see it's quite stable overall, but the AUM are significantly down. That's mostly the financial markets. Trading, and again, for maybe some of the new ones in the call, we talk here about customer-driven trading. We no longer, since now for the last 14 years, we don't do any prop trading. This is only trading for customers and high volatility in the first half. The Forex market was quite attractive and the Forex transactions were up and we could increase our revenues. Despite a slight decrease in structured products, which is another business in the trading division. This business was very, very good in the first half of 2021. A bit less in 2022, but nevertheless, good activities. That went down, but the Forex revenue went up and overall everything went up. Basically a very good year, first half in terms of revenues and almost all businesses on business lines contributed to this very good result. Now I'm going to hand over to Thomas for the detail on the more financial aspect of this presentation. Thank you, Pascal. Hello, everybody. I'm on chart 14 on the income statement. It's a pleasure to show you this, a total income up 6% to CHF 524 million. We'll dig into more details on the following pages with regard to the operational charges. Just one point which is important here is operating profit is up to CHF 24 million. Our net profit CHF 197 million, and taxes are stable. This is because there was an extraordinary tax charge previous year, previous H1. That is why this is stable, and it is basically more reflecting the tax rate in 2022, which we have in this region. Now with regard to total income composition on page 15. Well, overall, the first statement is of course that all contributors, all sources of income were up. I go more into net interest a little bit later, which is up 4%. Well, as mentioned before, commission and fees is up 3%. Well, obviously, this is taking advantage of the higher average assets under management, which we are well aware were decreasing over the first half. Trading income is up 16%, which is obviously very strong, driven by the volatility in the Forex market. This was Forex, which was very high. Structured products are at a high level, but lower than the exceptional structured product first half of 2021. As mentioned, we had a real estate disposal, which is kind of something exceptional, which drove up the other ordinary income. Now, with regard to interest income, it is interesting to see that the net interest income before loan impairment charge is stable. Which the different dynamics, we can go into more questions with this, later. It is the almost inexistent net loan impairment charges which drove up the net interest income in comparison to the previous half by CHF 8 million. Now, with regard to operational charges on page 16, personnel costs are stable, and it's other operating expenses which are up, well, of course, one aspect because life is waking up again, and cultural and sporting events take place, and we obviously are sponsoring them here. That is one of the key drivers. The other one is also on the IT side, with increasing charges driven by digital channels use and needing digital capacity on the IT side to respond to that. Depreciation amortization is stable. Well, on page 17, as you can see, overall headcount is pretty stable. As you can see, there are always these kind of local variations by in and out, nothing significant. On page 18, total assets, while it's a very long balance sheet with CHF 15.9 billion, given the current situation of very high liquidity, cash and equivalents at Swiss National Bank almost all are slightly up 3%. On the client side, more interestingly, we see this, Pascal Kiener already mentioned this, still dynamic, mortgage market. Mortgages are up 2% over the half year. That is something which we look at carefully to stay with the quality we want. Slight movements in loans and advances to customers, which are rather marginal. On page 19, on the liability side, where you see the treasury activity is also, given the fact that we try always to fill up the exemption threshold at Swiss National Bank, which has been rising continuously over that period still, even if it's now producing less money, but we'll go back to that later. Well, customer deposits, have been discussed, are almost stable. Shareholding equity is obviously down because we don't take into account. We had higher distribution than, of course, we're earning over six months as you are well aware of. Assets under management on page 20. Now, it has been very well discussed, what was the market performance, that there was some new money. The split of net new money is basically coming from the different businesses of BCV, from personal banking, SMEs, institutional large corporates. This is quite normal development of the business. On page 21, the risk-weighted assets and the capital ratios, where the first measure, of course, is rather stable. Those for you who follow the kind of technical information of regulation in Switzerland, you have probably heard that, FINMA is coming back with this counter-cyclical buffer, which will be increased in September 2020, which will be back in September 2020. Given the split of risk-weighted assets of BCV, that basically means that the requirement increases by 1% to 14%. Well, no impact for us with the way of how we do our business. Well, this is still increasing environment of high liquidity, increasing liquidity of larger balance sheets. The leverage ratio is slightly down, which is also insignificant. LCR, also in the same sense, is pretty high. It's excessively high, driven up by our priority to earn money ex with additional bank. Actually, see exemption threshold we have there. Well, structurally, we have a very solid funding, as you can see on page 23, and this is basically all. Okay. Going forward, let's look slightly on page 25. You see some estimates here for the GDP growth for Switzerland and for Vaud. I believe those estimations from some institute around Lausanne and also BCV estimation, they might be quite a bit high. I expect a slowdown due to the current situation. Nevertheless, 2022, I believe that the growth will be above 2%, clearly above probably 2.5%, something like that. For next year, I do believe that the growth will be around 2%. Might be 1.8%, might be 2.2%, 2.3%. Who knows? Clearly, I don't see any sign of recession in this part of the world. Switzerland is doing well, and Vaud is doing even better. We see that immigration is increasing again after a couple of years where it was flat. That means residents of European countries, mostly Spain, France and Portugal are coming back to work in Switzerland. We have an employment rate of 2%, so it is quite tense in the labor market for the time being. That means rather positive, I don't expect any recession in the next 18 months. In terms of real estate, which is quite an important market for us, you see the number here that in 2021 prices of apartments or flats or single-family homes were again up. I was a bit surprised. I would have thought that prices would slightly level off now. Probably that will too happen now with the increase in the interest rates. I do believe that pricing should. The growth of price should slow down even maybe be slightly negative, but marginally and probably in terms of volume also, I expect a decrease of growth instead of 4%, maybe 3%. That's normal, given the interest rate situation. Now, on the other hand, we see that immigration is again going up, so the growth of population is slightly growing. We see also that real estate promoters were quite careful in the last two years, given also or maybe even three, four years, given the increase in vacancy rates that you see in the last numbers. The vacancy rate is going again down. This is why I believe that the market will remain sound, even if I consider the price being very high. I said for the last 10 years that the price were too high, so I was always wrong. Should be careful with estimation. No, but basically, there is a need. There is a very low unemployment rate. As I said, there is an increase in immigration, so more or less the number of flats or single-family homes, new homes being brought on the market is compensated just for the increase of population growth. Probably this vacancy rate will remain between, I don't know, 0.8% and 1.5%. In this bracket, I don't see that price will crash. It's possible in the next 12 to 18 months. We will carry on our strategy targeting a growth roughly like the market, so probably a bit less than 4% for next year. We focus clearly on those areas where the vacancy rate is lower, and we carry on looking at quality object. We could have a larger growth or bigger growth than the 4%, but we don't want to do that because that would probably mean taking lower quality mortgage. In terms of outlook, H1 was exceptionally good. This is the best H1 in the last 15 years. In H2 2021 was the best H2 in the last 15 years. I don't think H2 will be as good as H1. There are a couple of reasons for that. First of all, there was an exceptional item in H1. The trading was exceptionally good, so I'm not sure we'll have a good performance, I mean, but I don't think we have the same level of performance. The financial markets are slightly down, a bit up now, but basically, since a couple of revenue streams commissions are linked to the volume of AUM, we should see roughly a slight decrease. If you add up all those elements, and then also the dynamic in the interest revenue due to small increase of interest rates or the ramp up. I mean, if interest rates are again one day totally normal, it will be the jackpot. It will be good, very good for us. We always said that the six-12 months, 18 months period when the interest are going up, that will be a bit more difficult for us, for different reasons. Maybe Thomas can explain that a bit better later if there is a question about that. Now it depends also what the SNB will do in September. If they remain like that, okay, fine. If they go to zero, this is the worst case in a way for us. If they go with the rate to 0.25% or 0.5%, we will again get some money on the CHF 15 billion of, let's say, SMEs and private person deposits. This is why it's quite difficult to estimate. But if I make it the best possible guess, the revenue will be down in H2, and the net profit will be in line with previous year. But we will not make again a net profit like the record we had in 2021. Okay, I'm done. We are ready to answer your questions. We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touch tone telephone. You will hear a tone to confirm that you have entered the queue. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Questioners on the phone are requested to use only handsets and eventually turn off the volume from the webcast. Webcast viewers may submit their questions or comments in writing via the relevant field. Anyone who has a question may press star and one at this time. The first question is from Stefan Stalmann from Autonomous Research. Please go ahead. Hi. Yes, good afternoon, gentlemen. Thank you very much for hosting the call. I wanted to talk about three topics, please. The first is on cost. Your cost base has been very well behaved, but clearly there's all kinds of pressures in the environment, maybe less in Switzerland than elsewhere. But do you expect to see anything, let's say, in the next six to twelve months, pressure, let's say, from rising rates, rising energy costs, or maybe cost inflation on other inputs? Second topic would be energy security. I was wondering if you have any view on how you look at the energy supply risk in Switzerland over the next, let's say, six-12 months. Even more specifically, have you actually run a scenario to determine what your expected credit losses might be in a scenario where there would be, let's say, a total stop of Russian energy deliveries to Western Europe? The last question relates to deposits. You break out, I think for the first time maybe, that the deposits in real estate firms or the deposits by real estate customers are down while their borrowing actually grows. Now is it just random noise, what we're seeing there? Or is that maybe a first indication of tighter liquidity in this client group? Maybe because they're facing a rising cost of construction. Thank you very much. Okay. Let's see. The first question about cost. I think it's quite difficult to answer this question. I mean, certainly, we will suffer like everybody from inflation. I mean, let's be clear on the personal cost side. I mean, we were quite lucky in the last couple of years, where the increase in personal costs were quite limited. Now, as you see in Switzerland, I mean, some union asking for 4% or 5%, definitely we will not give that, but that will be more than last year. Last year, I think we had an increase of 0.7%. Probably this year we're going to be closer to 1.5%. We haven't decided that yet, but definitely on the energy cost also. I don't know if you have looked at the price of electricity. We have long-term contract, but now we have to renew those contracts, so there will be a slight increase here. It's difficult. I mean, in the other items, I don't think this is quite important. We have long-term contract also on the IT side. Probably the cost next year will increase more than this year, except this increase we had this year based on those sponsoring events, et cetera. This is going to be flat. That means we will not see again a kind of a CHF 5 million-CHF 6 million increase. That's going to be flat. I could imagine that the cost will increase by maybe, I don't know, maybe 2%. Difficult to give you a precise number. Definitely, we're not going to see zero. I mean, I don't believe that. We don't have plan in a way to cut costs dramatically. I think, as you said, we managed them quite well in the last 10-15 years. We're going to carry on that. Against inflation, we cannot really fight alone. I hope that answered the first question. The second question is a bit. Is a very wide question. I'm not sure if you talk about BCV or overall Switzerland. I do expect some problems with Switzerland. Actually, if I'm a bit cynical, the sooner those problems, the sooner the government will react and take immediate decision to solve that problem on a short-term, mid-term and long-term basis. You know how the politicians work, but probably we need a kind of a crisis to make sure that we take now the right decision. Because this is suddenly in the press and in the politics, the problem. If you talk to specialists, I mean, this was clear for the last five years that we will come to that point, right? Almost 10 years maybe. Anyway, I do expect some issues. Now, let's say, let's try to structure the discussion. For us, BCV, we are ready for that. I mean, we have systems. If there is, I don't know, a cut in power, the power or electricity grid for a couple of hours, it's not an issue for us, even a couple of days. I mean, certainly not a couple of weeks, but we have system to be able to survive a couple of days. Now if the grid is off, I mean if there is a huge shortage and there is a cut, a blackout, now this is a system blackout in Switzerland. So BCV cannot do anything against that. I mean, if the financial system or the payment system doesn't work because there's no electricity, that's another discussion. Now, in terms of credit risk, I mean, we haven't done a thorough in-depth analysis, but I'm not sure this is really necessary. I mean, we don't have in Switzerland. I mean, there are two issues here. There is one issue of the price. If you look in our portfolio, in our region, we don't have those kind of energy-intensive industry or customer. I believe price is not an issue. There might be one or two companies having problems, but we are not exposed to energy-intensive activities or companies. Price increase will not be a problem. Now in terms of supply, in terms of blackout. I expect a blackout electricity. In terms of energy, I don't think so. Now, it's very difficult to imagine, but I mean, it's clear that if the country is blocked for two weeks, there will be some problems. I mean, the problem will be about everybody. If you talk about more our loan book specifically in terms of credit risk, I'm quite confident. I don't think that. It might be different in other parts of the world, but again, I say that we have a service-oriented industry, 85% in service and maybe 10% in industry and the rest in the agricultural business. I'm not too worried about that. We have looked at a couple of customers specifically, and the situation seems to be okay for the time being. That's the second question. The third one was about real estate. There was. I think that's random noise. This is not something, this is not a sign of everything. This is just random noise. Don't worry about that. Okay. Thank you very much. Yes, Yes, that helped you. The next question is from Andreas Brun from Vontobel. Please go ahead. Hello. Thanks. Maybe want to start for Thomas on the one of how big was the gain from the sale of real estate? A second one on NII. How big is the negative impact from the higher interest rates, like in CHF millions in H2? Or put differently, how big is the lost revenue given that you cannot charge negative interest rates anymore for 75 basis points? One on trade finance. In trade finance, you said the book is normally between CHF 2 billion and CHF 3 billion. Could you tell us the current size and maybe compare it to the book by mid-2021? Maybe the last one for Pascal, on the guidance, is a net profit in H2 2020 or H1 2021 of which was CHF 173 kind of a good indication overall in the ballpark for the second half year. Okay. Let me maybe jump to the last one. I mean, you see, I mean, there are different way of answering your question. If you take maybe the three or five years average on profits, you should get to a sum, to a number which is correct, plus minus CHF 10 million, maybe something like that. We will pay the dividend, don't worry. Okay, that's for the first point. The second point on trade finance. What was the question again? Exposure level. Yeah. I mean, it is a bit fluctuating, but we are not at CHF 3 billion. We are, I think, slightly less than CHF 2.5 billion. Remember, the exposure, this is balance sheet and off balance sheet, something like CHF 2 billion, a bit more than CHF 2 billion. It's very similar to last year. The revenue should be really similar in trade finance, although the number of transactions has been significantly reduced. The transactions are just bigger. Okay. I mean, I need to answer the real estate one. Look, we don't want to show a specific number. I can tell you this is a one figure number, so less than 10, and this is in the upper half of. Okay? I think I cannot. Andreas has very precise questions. Okay, I take the last one, the most difficult one. Well, okay, the NII dynamics, of course, they are very interesting these days, and I cannot be too precise just to be correct, because everyone answers also another call. Let's give you broad ideas. I think the important thing, of course, is to look at the key elements, key drivers. Key drivers in these dynamics, of course, are how much do we earn on the exemption threshold. Key driver is, of course, the short leg of the hedging book. Key drivers is what we earn on, in inverted commas, the negative interest rate on the liability side. Yeah. Now, of course, then the key question is the scenario. Okay? If we get quickly out of this, right? Which means that if SNB do that as an important step in September 2022, maybe already of getting positive and finally on one way or the other, it's really positive in December for the next year. The next year will be nice. The next year will be nice, and then you understand what can happen. Because what will be nice in 2023 is obviously there's no more revenue from the exemption threshold. This is generally true for balance sheet banks. There's a new normal in liquidity requirements with the LCR requirements. A normal bank will have structural excess liquidity to place on the money market, right? This obviously in a higher interest environment will be interesting. Here's the kind of way we were standing on our head, and now we stand up straight, and there will be a set of this arbitrage revenue that will be revenue for money market from the repo market. Obviously on the liability side, the negative interest rates will have disappeared. The deposits, all of the deposits becomes still something very interesting, because obviously again becomes an interesting refinancing source, which is obviously providing commercial margins, if you want to call it like that. Also then the third element, the short leg of the hedging book. Well, I mean, wow, as you can imagine, if we get to 25-50 basis points, this becomes a significant contributor. Okay. This is a scenario. I insist on the word scenario for 2023. Now the second half of 2022, well, it's all dynamic, right? It's all very dynamic. The quicker it happens, the nicer it will be. It's very difficult to say. You can draw on each of these cases, each of these bullet points I just made, you can draw your own little curve. What basically is true that, the exemption level overnight will provide no more money, and the negative interest they charge customers will provide no more money either. There is some tension. In front of this, there is this speed of what I mentioned before. We are slightly under pressure. Nothing dynamic and nothing catastrophic. Some percentage points of pressure. Okay? All right. We have done this guidance because I believe this is the correct one. Unless the SNB reacts before September, unless SNB say now -0.25% becomes 1%, which I don't believe. I mean, next trading revenue will be slightly down. I mean, the volatility has come down. The commission on AUM will be probably a bit lower. There will not be an exceptional item. In addition, there is this tension on the interest revenue, which is small. When you add up all those numbers, you realize that we will not do a second half as good as the second half of last year, which was really exceptional. I don't want people to say, "Okay, we take the first half, and we take times two." Because that's not going to happen. It's going to be lower than the CHF 379 we had last year. Enough to pay our dividend without any problem. Sure. That's good. Thank you very much. Okay. As a reminder, if you wish to register for a question, please press star and one on your telephone. There are no more questions at this time. Okay. Thank you, everybody. Thank you very much. We talk to you probably in February next year. Thank you, sir. Okay. Bye-bye. Thank you. Bye. Thank you. Bye-bye. Ladies and gentlemen, the conference is now over. Thank you for choosing Chorus Call, and thank you for participating in the conference. You may now disconnect your lines. Goodbye.