Dear ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the earnings call of Nemetschek Group. At our customer's request, this conference will be recorded. As a reminder, all participants will be in a listen-only mode. After the presentation, there will be an opportunity to ask questions. If any participant has difficulties hearing the conference, please press star key followed by the zero on your telephone for an operator assistance. May I now hand over to Stefanie Zimmermann, who will lead you through this conference. Please go ahead. Thank you, operator. Welcome everybody to our conference call. Thank you for joining us to discuss the results for the fiscal year 2020 and the outlook with us. Today's conference call is being recorded. A replay of the call will be available at our website after the call. We have prepared a presentation with the most important figures and strategic highlights of the Nemetschek Group. You will find the presentation, our annual report, and the press release on our investor relation website as well. Now let's start with the presentation. I would like to hand over to our Spokesman, Axel Kaufmann, who will lead you through the presentation. Go ahead, Axel. Thank you, Steffi, and thank you to the entire investor relations team who I think did a great job over the last weeks preparing this. Welcome from my side, and as Steffi already said, we have prepared a little slide deck. Let me briefly walk you through so that we have sufficient time afterwards for your questions. This is the overview, and as you can see, we have a few topics today that we would like to talk about. After a short recap of the financial year 2020, we'll look into the recurring revenue and subscription strategies for each of our segments and discuss what it means for the entire Nemetschek Group. Last but not least, we'll also talk about our financial outlook for the current fiscal year, as well as our ambition for 2023. Let me start with a short overview of the financial highlights of the past year. Summarizing 2020, we saw another successful year of the Nemetschek Group, despite a very challenging environment and thanks to our high share of recurring revenues, as well as the intact structural long-term growth drivers in our end markets. We've listed the top key figures for the last fiscal year. In short, we delivered what we already indicated in the preliminary numbers we published earlier this year. We were able to increase our sales despite a slight foreign exchange tailwind by 7.2% to almost EUR 600 million while preserving our high profitability at an EBITDA margin of 28.9%. Besides the high cash conversion of almost 91%, you can see on the right side that we once again also increased the quality of our balance sheet and that under these unprecedented circumstances indeed. The chart on slide number five provides a good overview of the different dynamics and development that we faced over the course of 2020. I'm proud to say that thanks to our swift reaction to the pandemic, as well as our very resilient business model, we were not only able to stabilize our top line, but also preserve our high profitability in the second quarter. Starting with the third quarter, we then saw a strong recovery that continued in the fourth quarter as well as in the beginning of the new fiscal year 2021, despite the renewed lockdown since November. In this context, please let me mention that our profitability, especially in the third quarter and fourth quarter, were not really representative for the underlying earnings potential of our business. In detail, Q3 was characterized by a stronger than expected recovery, as well as ongoing cost savings, which led to a somewhat artificially high EBITDA margin. In contrast to Q4, where we invested in the future growth of our business, as well as a leaner and more efficient group set up going forward. These one-off investments, I would call them, for example, for the integration of our brand Precast into the brand ALLPLAN or acquisition costs in media and M&E, thus corresponded lower than usual profitability. They should not be extrapolated into the coming quarters. We'll talk about that in a minute. Moving on, if we look at the regional distribution of our business on page number six, we proudly note that we grew in all major markets. Let's move on to page number seven. As you all know, one of our main objectives and always an important discussion point also with you is the topic of recurring revenues. If anything, the recent events around COVID-19 have further amplified the importance of these better predictable and more resilient revenues. We were able to grow those by 20% on a reported basis and still by 17.5% on an organic and foreign exchange adjusted basis. This translates into a sharp advancement of six percentage points of the recurring revenue category, which now accounts for 60% of our total sales. Within the recurring category, our subscription revenues almost doubled to EUR 90 million. This already represents a share of 15% of our total sales compared to the only 9% one year ago. Our perpetual license business recorded a less satisfying development. Main reasons for the decline were, of course, a slower customer demand due to the COVID-19 pandemic circumstances, especially in our design and manage segments, as well as the ongoing move to a subscription-only model by Maxon in media. However, it is worth noting that we're also seeing a subsequential improvement in our license sales since the beginning of Q3, and that's ongoing. Now, to conclude my view on our 2020 results, let's look at the financials as well as strategic highlights of our four divisions quickly starting on page number eight. Our design segment saw a recovery in the second half of the year with an accelerating growth trajectory that continued also in 2021. We've also listed some strategic highlights. In the design segment, we have seen the first results of the great collaboration between our brands. Architects and engineers benefit from new workflow solutions for integrated or federated design. The results are higher quality in their design and planning phase, huge time savings, and improved collaboration. That creates customer benefits. ALLPLAN, one of our big brands in the design segment, as many of you know, is also leaping competition with its cloud-based technology, ALLPLAN Bimplus, for highly efficient data management, which the industry typically demands a lot in context of CDE functionalities. Last but not least, to streamline and harmonize our portfolio, ALLPLAN and Precast as two brands, joined forces last year. Together, they're able to deliver a unique offering for engineering and construction companies. The build segment felt the impact of COVID-19 only with a delay due to the well-filled order books of construction companies, as well as the focus on the U.S. construction industry. As many of you know, the U.S. dollar unfortunately developed unfavorably for us, especially in the fourth quarter, where we saw a negative FX headwind of almost 6 percentage points. The strong margin expansion, which also led to an overproportional earnings contribution to the group, was mainly driven by our brand Bluebeam. In the DACH region with our brand NEVARIS, we've experienced a significant growth last year. We saw a huge demand for our offering and especially for our cloud onsite solutions for construction sites. This demand was also supported by increased BIM requirements in the DACH region, as well as infrastructure investments. Over the last month, the Bluebeam team has worked passionately on its SaaS move in the second half of this fiscal year 2021, as well as developments in new features and new cloud and data-centric solutions. You'll hear more about that in a minute. In the relatively new manage division shown on page number 10, the negative effects of COVID-19 were felt after a delay, but continued through the fourth quarter due to the ongoing cautious investments by the important customer group of facility managers and the limitation to access buildings, for example, to install sensors. Worth to mention is also our acquisition that we did at the end of last year. We have enhanced our portfolio with DEXMA and its AI-powered energy management solution to provide our customers with tools to reduce energy costs for a more sustainable future. In this segment, we're talking about a very holistic view at the entire building life cycle. We're now able to leverage BIM also for facility managers and building owners, extending its value beyond design and construction. We also see that digital twins are the game changer. Creating those by the help of our software enables landlords and operators, for example, to increase intelligence throughout the life cycle of the entire building. The result, a sustainability and substantially smarter asset management. Moving on to slide number 11, the media segment, which I'm proud to oversee also personally. The main achievement is the very successful subscription transition and the first group-wide, fully fledged integration to form what we call Maxon One. We have a dedicated slide on the great development of this segment later in our presentation, so I suggest we move on. With this, let me share some important strategic views and updates regarding the recurring revenue and subscription strategy of the Nemetschek Group. Let me briefly explain the why on page number 13. We believe, in general, a move to a subscription or SaaS-based model has many benefits, of course, for a vendor, but also if it's done right for the customers, which is paramount in our customer-first mentality here at Nemetschek. Let me highlight the most important aspects. Our customers are more flexible and don't have the high upfront investment anymore. This was especially attractive for many customers during the pandemic last year. At the same time, they also benefit from a higher speed of innovation and improved services and improved flexibility. Additionally, we see many benefits for our group. We can tap into completely new customer groups, expand our customer lifetime value, and increase customer satisfaction that ultimately will lead to an even higher retention. All in all, such move will generate higher recurring revenues that lead to better predictability and will secure our long-term sustainable double-digit growth in the future. We therefore believe that our subscription and SaaS business portion will grow significantly with a CAGR of more than 50% over the next three years. Main driver will be excuse me, the above group average growth of subscription business in the media segment, as well as the Bluebeam cloud transition, which will start in the second half of 2021. Altogether, we believe in subscription and SaaS business, and wherever applicable, we'll perform a transition because we believe in the long-term value. A great example of our ability to successfully transform a classical, perpetual, dominated license business into a true subscription model is our brand Maxon. As mentioned before, I'd like to talk a bit more about it today and give you an update on why we're better and stronger positioned here today than even before. Nemetschek already had acquired a majority stake in Maxon 15 years ago because of its competencies in the field of visualization, which is also an important feature for many designers and architects. However, despite these ties into the AEC space, it might have seemed, at least from the outside, that our media and entertainment division was more likely something of a fifth wheel on the wagon. Came the transformation. It already started in 2018 with the strategic decision to buy out the former founders and to install a real industry expert with Dave McGavran, who joined us from Adobe. Following this, and a lot of changes, we made two acquisitions with Red Giant and Redshift, which substantially improved Maxon's product offering. Also, an important prerequisite for the following move to a subscription model, which started in the third quarter of 2019. Today, I'm proud to report that Maxon, with its almost finished subscription transition, its attractive growth profile in the mid-teen, and an above group margin, has become a second growth pillar for our company besides our core legacy business. Page number 15 provides a comprehensive overview of the current state and strategy of all of our four segments in regard to the theme subscription and recurring revenues. A fundamental cornerstone is to adapt our recurring revenue approach and timing to the unique characteristics and needs of each segment, which differ. This includes, for example, the specific customer focus of each segment, or the region in which the majority of the revenue is currently generated. Let me give you some more details, and we go from left to right. In the design segment, we're primarily addressing small medium enterprises in the architecture and engineering sector in Europe. The preference for rental models is not very high in this segment, especially due to two factors. Consequently, we will continue with our hybrid model to offer both licenses as well as subscription in order to address new customers. We're thus confident to increase our subscription portion from 5% today to around 15% already in 2023. More importantly, we expect to already see around 60% in recurring revenues in this segment in 2023. In the build segment, we are well-positioned in the U.S. and address the large construction companies as well as small and medium ones, so the acceptance for rental models is already high. Consequently, our Bluebeam brand will move its offering to a cloud and data-centric offering, SaaS, in the second half of 2021, and we will see a huge increase in subscription SaaS over the next few years. We are convinced that this is the right way to re-accelerate Bluebeam's growth in the mid to long term. In 2023, we expect that subscription and SaaS revenues will also account for around 80% of the build segment's revenues, while the total recurring share will be more than 90% already. As a third segment, in Manage, we already have a large share of our revenues in subscription and cloud and will continue the path there. Media, last but not least, as I just described, completes this picture very nicely. I'm personally convinced that this tailored strategy for each segment will allow the group as a whole to achieve sustainable double-digit growth again in the future. A little bit more detail about Bluebeam. With Bluebeam set to launch its subscription and cloud solutions in the second half of this year, I'd like to briefly go into a bit more because it's one of our most important brands. Bluebeam has grown rapidly in recent years and is now a leading player in the collaboration space with more than 2.2 million users globally. For months now, the Bluebeam team has been working on expanding their product portfolio to offer new features and focusing on their cloud and data-centric solutions. The team is still working on the last details, but it is already clear that with this, Bluebeam will be leading its customers into a true SaaS future. What does it mean for us? The transformation will lead to significantly higher growth rates starting in 2023, as we can significantly expand customer lifetime value while targeting our customers more effectively. To be concrete, by this strategy, we expect to double our current Bluebeam revenues by 2025. Let me put this in a simple picture for the entire Nemetschek Group so that you got the total picture. Our ambition is, first, to significantly increase our subscription SaaS revenue share from currently around 15% to around 45% in 2023. This represents an average CAGR over the next three years of more than 50%. Second, at the same time, we will increase our overall recurring revenue from currently 60% to around 75% in 2023, corresponding to an average CAGR of 15% growth. While we are making these moves, we are still committed on our way there to reach at least a high single-digit growth for the company overall. As we're convinced that with this transition, we're laying the foundation for a significantly more dynamic growth potential for Nemetschek in the future, a sustainable growth in the mid-teens percentage range starting in 2023 marks our clear ambition. With this, allow me to come to the end of my presentation on page number 19. As I just laid out, we target a mid-teens growth starting in 2023, as well as a recurring revenue share of around 75%. 45% will be coming from our subscription and SaaS offerings. Looking at the current financial year, 2021, after a good start, the intact long-term growth trends in our relevant markets, our already high proportion of better-plannable revenues, as well as the broad regional and market-related diversification, we look confident into the year. In particular, that means that from today's perspective and at constant currencies, we expect at least a high single-digit percentage revenue growth in this fiscal year, despite a still uncertain environment and our accelerated move to subscription. With this, we're very confident that we also achieve our normally targeted profitability range and EBITDA margin of between 27%-29%. I think this is great. Our assessment is based on the assumption that the markets and the business environment in general will continue to normalize throughout the year. However, please rest assured that as we have demonstrated already last year, we will continue to monitor the ongoing COVID-19 development and its implications to our business very closely, and that we are well prepared to also take market opportunities out of the current situation as we are convinced that our products have the right fit and we have the agility and financial strength to act. With that, I'd like to thank you for your attention, and we're now happy to take all of your questions. Operator, please back to you. Thank you. We will now begin our question and answer session. If you have a question for our speakers, please dial zero and one on your telephone keypad now to enter the queue. Once your name has been announced, you can ask a question. If you find your question is answered before it's your turn to speak, you can dial zero and two to cancel your question. If you are using speaker equipment today, please lift the handset before making your selection. One moment, please, for the first question. We have a first question. It's from George Webb, Morgan Stanley. The floor is yours. Good afternoon. Thank you for taking my questions. I've got a few different ones. Firstly, when we think about the 2021 guidance, can you help us a little more with the picture you expect for Bluebeam or at least the build segment? I guess given its size, to the group, it looks like you're still expecting it to grow. Is the right way to think about it being slightly below the growth rate of the overall group? That's the first one. Secondly, you called out a good start to 2021. Are you able to elaborate that a little bit more, which geographies are performing best and any trends you've been seeing? Thirdly, can you talk us through the subscription model pricing equation for Bluebeam in terms of the price uplift you anticipate to achieve on current Bluebeam maintenance customers, and how does that help inform the significant acceleration in growth you expect from 2022 to 2023? Thank you. Thank you very much, George. I think your first assumption is correct, given the transformation that we're going through with Bluebeam. In regards to the 2021 development in terms of the regions, I think we're equally confident on the European market as well as the American market. There is structural differences also in terms of our footprint, but in terms of the perspective, I don't think we make a big difference there. To your last point, I'm sorry, but I think it would not be prudent at this point, before this has been introduced really to customers to talk about any pricing streams or dynamics there, as we really want to do this together with the respective customers. Thanks for your understanding. No, I understand. Maybe if I could follow up with a slightly different angle on that question. I guess, have you done any studies internally around what you perceive the stickiness of those Bluebeam customers to be, or what you expect to happen to churn rates, et cetera, as you go through that transition? That would be quite interesting. Thank you very much. You must assume or you can assume that there is a detailed plan behind that transition. It is relatively early, us announcing this in a certain way when we are talking about the second half and going toward the end of this year, this getting really started as a transition. We wanted to make sure that financial markets and especially you are prepared. As much as I would like to comment on this question, we will come out with a more detailed set of typical KPIs when you go through such a transition that we will be able to provide, starting with how we did it in Maxon and then going on with Bluebeam. The customer base is enormous, the way we look at our installed base, and you mentioned the stickiness that we have excellent customer relationships there. We've really carefully prepared this in a way that we're very confident that in terms of how we want to position the product, be it from functionality to pricing to use cases, that's going to land very well. Again, that in respect of my colleagues in Pasadena and the entire Bluebeam team, I understand that they're being careful with giving out more details, especially on the U.S. market where 89% of this business really is being executed today. Let's not forget that there is also international expansion that we have started higher investments to prepare the product to be taken across the Atlantic, mainly in parts of Europe, with which even today's product offering still has a very low penetration. It doesn't even require a shift in the business model or new features to land well with customers. We have great success cases in the last weeks and months that we'll use as a reference together with the enhanced infrastructure, so that we're better prepared when we go into this fiscal year to also show Bluebeam making quite a difference here outside the U.S., which we've been hoping for for many years, frankly. That's helpful. Maybe if I can just squeeze one final one in. I guess the 2023 ambition doesn't have a margin ambition attached to it. How should we think about the profile of margins as you go through this transition? Well, at the moment, I think we're giving that guidance primarily on the top line, but there's no reason to believe that we would not stay within that corridor of the bandwidth, which I think is a very high, attractive range that we would give from the 27%-29%. Maybe we have a good chance this year to land rather at the upper end of that range. Then we'll see what currency does, what other impacts does, what investments does, what the environment does. There is no reason to believe that we would fall below that range, and rather stay to be in the midpoint there as well. That, quite frankly, I'm thankful for the question, the follow-up, George, because this is something that we typically get positive feedback for, which is unusual, that you go through such a transition and still are able to report those growth rates as well as the level of profitability. That's very helpful. Thanks very much. You're welcome. Thank you, George. We have the next question by Sven Merkt, Barclays. The floor is yours. Good afternoon. Thank you for taking my question. First, I have a follow-up from the last question on the margin. If we think now to 2023, you obviously expect an acceleration in growth. Should we expect that at this point in time, you would let the margin inflect upward as revenue growth accelerates? Should we more think about that you probably will invest that additional revenues to maintain or further accelerate growth rates? Yeah, maybe I come back with the second question. Yeah. Thank you very much, Sven. Our focus is on transitioning this, particularly in the case of Bluebeam, with not letting drop the growth rates overall below what we have indicated for this year, and also the subsequent year, 2022, on the group level. At the same time, our focus is as much and accordingly on the margin. Bottom line, we'll not allow that happening, what could have been implied in your question, that we allow the margin to drop below what we see in terms of the range. No, I'm not sure if maybe I should have phrased the question a little better. My point was more around growth will obviously accelerate in 2023, and at this point in time, there's quite a bit of operating leverage. The question was more around, will you then let the margin go upwards or will you reinvest? No, typically, we would have nothing against a slight increase of the margin once we're done with the majority of the transition. That assumption is correct. Okay, great. That's clear. Thank you. My second question is on the U.S. government potential infrastructure program. They are currently preparing a EUR 3 trillion infrastructure program. My question is, to what extent could this program benefit you and also maybe increase the need for the industry to digitalize overall, given the increased workload that they will probably then face over the coming decade? I agree in general, it's not only I think true for the U.S., but also the various programs we see in Europe, that this is an underlying positive momentum that all of us should benefit from. The one more, the other less. As much as the regulation over the last years, which we've been seeing, this kind of is an extra chip on top, clearly. I could not call out in regards to how much of that would we benefit. The assumption that you had in your question that this is an underlying positive stimulus here or in the U.S., is absolutely correct. Okay, great. My final question is just, again, on the margin for this year. Revenue growth will likely be very much weighted to Q2 this year. The question is just how should we think about the phasing for the margin throughout this year? The phasing of the margin, we're still operating in an environment where we're investing a bit more than a year ago, I would say, yet definitely under proportional in terms of we're being cautious. Margin overall, the more confidence comes back and the more normality that we would see, we would also then increase investments in infrastructure within the company, in programs, as well as in hiring headcount. Rest assured that we're steering this ship still carefully. You're right, Q2 will be the most important quarter to see how sustainable this really is. We had the sharpest decline clearly there last year and then reacted very swiftly, and we'll have to see. Overall margin development over the year, we'll start with, I would say, a good year overall at the beginning, and then quarter- by- quarter, we'll have to see. The more we know, the more we can also communicate and precise, I would say, the guidance there. I tried to make a point, just as a follow-up, maybe, if you allow. We tried to make a point that the year-over-year comparisons for some of those quarters of last year, 2020, are difficult and shouldn't be extrapolated just automatically. You all have your models, of course, and you do what you want to do. The comments we made around Q3, for example, or Q4, the one being slightly better than expected, top line as well as bottom line, the other being shadowed by some of the one-off investments. That needs to be taken into account, I think, when we go through the quarters of the new fiscal year. Okay, great. That makes perfect sense. Thank you. Thank you. We have our next question by Gal Munda. The floor is yours. Hello. Hi, good afternoon. Thank you for taking my questions. Maybe just the first one, a very quick one on Bluebeam. You mentioned you have 2.2 million users. Are those monthly active users? How do you track those people? When I looked on the website, it said 1.3 million. I just want to understand what the user base that you think is the active user base for Bluebeam today that I can take as a cohort. Yeah. Thank you very much, Gal, and good to have you on the call. The number that we mentioned, those are the active users. The use cases and your question, how we track those, that's actually where we differentiate between what functionalities and which models, and how do they use the product. As we would have one product, there would be different functionalities. That differs, of course, by user and by region. Okay. Perfect. The 2.2 million is the right one to take. How do I think about the split of the users roughly between the standard one, $350, all the way to the eXtreme one that would cost us $ 550 or something like that? I'm just thinking, as part of subscription, if there's an upgrade opportunity as well in those cohorts, or is it fairly equally split within the standard CAD and eXtreme versions? I think it's fairly evenly spread. That's my spontaneous answer. Okay. That's good. Just as a follow-up, I think that's really you're doing the transition very pragmatic way, which is nice to see. On 2025, when you say that you're targeting revenue to double for Bluebeam, can we get any indication of what Bluebeam revenues today would be, roughly? Secondly, what proportion of Bluebeam users of those 2.2 million do you expect in 2025 to be on subscriptions? The last one I cannot reveal, but I'll give you an indication for the first part of your question, Gal, and that is, let's assume that we're talking 70%-75% of the build division being represented by the Bluebeam worldwide P&L of business. Okay. That's really helpful. Just the last question, if I can squeeze in one more, please, is when you think about the business model transition and your revenue becoming more subscription-driven, you're collecting cash upfront, so you already have best-in-class cash conversion. Is there a scenario where cash conversion could improve further as you go through this business model transition effectively through in the midterm? I understand the short-term impact, but in the midterm, because you're going to be collecting cash and deferred revenue is going to contribute significantly to that on the balance sheet. Is that the right way to think about it? I understand the background of this question. I think with the state that we have today, and businesses are not comparable, I could quote now from within the 15% that we have today, and that's tripling, going up to 45%, mainly driven by Bluebeam. I think it's fairly early to say. I'm not sure the Maxon numbers, for example, would be representative. What I do know, as a finance view on the balance sheet and the cash flow statement is, like you say yourself, that I think we've been able to negotiate quite competitive and excellent terms overall. That targets, for example, also the maintenance agreements. We have different patterns between European maintenance contracts and U.S. ones, for example, for many reasons. Because of the wide and broad variety of the portfolio overall. Let us come back maybe to that point, if you allow some time next year. No, absolutely. Of course. No, that makes sense. Sorry. Just on the Bluebeam side, you have mentioned in the past that you already had significant uptake on the maintenance there. Is there any indication of what the recurring revenue for Bluebeam would be today, just based on the maintenance offerings that you have? Can you share that with us? Yeah. That is mainly the recurring part of the business today. Absolutely. Right. I'm not sure we're breaking out now this per each. No. You built out the build segment, so that makes sense. Yeah. Yes. Perfect. Yes. Thank you so much. That's been really helpful, and it's nice to see all that level of disclosure. You've given us a lot to work with, so it's going to be very interesting. Thank you, I appreciate all the data, and nice to see recovery at the end of the year as well. Thank you. Thank you. Our next question is by Chandra Sriraman. The floor is yours. Yeah. Hi, Axel. Thanks for taking my question, a good finish to the year. Just a couple of questions from my side. We notice at least when companies try to make this transition, usually, the pace of this adoption of subscription is quite unpredictable, and they end up investing a lot more than initially anticipated. I just wanted to confirm that you said that you would ensure that margins are within the typical range that you guide to. Is that correct? I just wanted to double-check on that. My second question is, on the M&A side of things. Things have been quiet for a while. Can you give us some idea as to how this should evolve in the coming quarters? Thanks. Thank you very much, Chandra. I'd like to start with a statement that there is two yes. I think you've understood it right, that we're not transforming the entire company at once, which I think is very important because it makes it even more unpredictable how this will land, with the development, over quarters, over years, for investors, for modeling. We'll do it in a precise way to really target and focus big elements of our portfolio, such as the Maxon in the last couple of years, and it's going to be Bluebeam for the next couple of years, and then a little bit of the rest. That phasing and that implicit message of us not transitioning the entire company at once is very important to me. Your second point, yes, you understood the margin comment correctly, that there is no intent while we go through the transition, which is quite unusual, that we are eager to still show an attractive growth profile for the group, and a profitability level for the group that is given with this range of previously mentioned. On your third aspect, the M&A, it's been quiet for us in terms of very big moves. Those moves have become very pricey as well, and irrational partially. We've been spending some money in diligence, more than it turned out to be in true M&A transactions. That's why in Q4, part of the explanation why we had higher investments in the Q4 last year was also some M&A work. Some of that resulted into smaller M&As, in manage and in media. Others resulted in a stop of the project because we felt that this is just not rational. In terms of the dynamic, the speed, the very lean diligence work that needed to be performed or could have been only performed, and then the price levels, of course. We have a pipeline that we still would allocate a lot of our attention to build and manage to continue in those two segments. We'll come out later this year with also some fantasy on media, but it's a bit too early to say. As a last point, we have started to also engage a bit more in what people would call the startup and venture scenery, where Nemetschek traditionally was really not an investor and not a player. We've been seeing this as an opportunity to enrich innovation and to put a few chips on some of the future forward-looking technologies that we find attractive. That's something I'd like to answer. M&A remains an additional growth driver, ideally a couple of percentage points, but only if we find a real good fit. At the moment, it would be fair to say that many of the activities that the top management drives are focusing on the organic improvements. Perfect. Maybe a quick follow-up on the media segment. It's going from one strength to the other. Organic growth is accelerating. Anything specifically driving this, other than just a better product and the move to subscriptions? It's a great team. It's a better product. It's a subscription. It's a market opportunity. It's a rare technology. I think we've been doing a real good job. Thanks to the team that Dave has gathered around him and focusing on many important and seems to be the right actions there. Again, this is something we'd love to talk more about in the future. I think some of you feel it already that we have done so in the last two or three quarters to put a bit of greater focus on this one, as more as we come to an end of the integration. It's not just a transition, it's an integration to form really one strong player. It used to be the smallest segment of our four divisions. Now it's at least number three. We would love to talk more about this, so let's stay tuned. Perfect. Thanks a lot. Thank you, Chandra. Our next question is by Florian Treisch, Commerzbank. The floor is yours. Yes. Hi, everybody. Florian speaking from Commerzbank. I have two questions, again, around the whole transition. The first question is around the design sector. Why are you not coming up with more aggressive push into the subscription world here? I understand that the client's preference are not necessarily on the SaaS side or subscription side, but if you look at some peers, they have simply shown that a more aggressive shift is not necessarily hurting the performance of the business, as clients should be comparatively sticky. Why are you here a bit more cautious? The second part is, can you quantify what you believe the revenue impact is on 2021 to 2023 from the subscription shift from Bluebeam to better understand really the underlying growth dynamic of the portfolio? Thank you. Hello, Florian, welcome to the call. Thanks for your questions. I'm not so sure I would like to talk about the competitors too much in our call here today. As you mentioned them, we've done the calculation and the math, and we are convinced, I'm speaking on behalf of my colleague, Viktor Várkonyi and the Design Division and the entire management leadership team there, that with our approach, we create on a mid-long-term consideration, a higher value and return for customers as well as for shareholders. There is different characteristics as we have tried to explain in the presentation, be it the customer base, be it the regional presence, be it the products, technology. This is not an apple-to-apple comparison if you quote our American competitors, for example. They have their reasons why they did it their way. I don't know if it's true that the customers were really happy with this, and as sticky as you imply in your question. We do it a little bit with a different approach, but ultimately, what is important for us, that we have a high part of the business recurring, be it from maintenance, be it from subscription, be it from SaaS. We're moving there slowly but surely, step by step. Overall, if you make the math of the entire transition and you look at, let's say, the last five years and the next five years, and we would compare numbers, I would claim that our return for customers and for shareholders is greater than some of the prominent competitors that we get compared with in the design segment. I'm sorry, I lost Florian in the second part of his question. You mentioned, Florian, I think the dip of the transition of Bluebeam in the next year on our revenue and growth. To be honest, of course, in 2021, we will not see a strong pressure because they will start in the second half of 2021. Perhaps two percentage points, definitely in 2022, a little bit more. Hopefully of course, in 2023, we have finalized the transition and then definitely, of course, we expect a very strong growth rate again. Perfect. Thank you very much. You're welcome, Florian. The next question is by Martin Jungfleisch from Kepler Cheuvreux. The floor is yours. Yes. Hi, good afternoon. Thanks for taking my questions. I have two. I'll start with the first one. It's on your 2022 and 2023 targets. Again, could you provide a rough bridge of what would make up the targeted high single-digit revenue growth in 2022? Is it the case that a stronger growth in design, M&E and manage should absorb lower or even negative growth in build? The same for 2023, what drives the expected mid-teens growth? Is that primarily driven by Bluebeam coming out of subscription, or is it any additional factors relating to Bluebeam, international expansion or any other brands accelerating that are baked into this assumption? That's the first one. Thank you very much, Martin. Good questions. I would be tempted to just say yes. The assumption is of course correct that when Bluebeam goes through the full year transition effect in 2022, there's going to be not much of a growth, right? How can there be? In order to achieve the high single digit, in that sense, as an indicative guidance we've been given this morning for this year 2022, there must be an additional growth acceleration by those other three divisions. That's what we're preparing for. It's a continuous path of a media coming out of their transition very successfully and exploiting the full potential there. Manage as well after, they had a challenging environment last year. We will see an improvement in the growth already this year. Last but not least, our design backbone really as the strong pillar in our portfolio. All of that is correct and very similar then also to the second part of your question. A yes. Okay. Thanks. The second question is on product development and competition. Last year you developed this federated and integrated design. Could you provide an update how client uptake or perception for this kind of product has developed, specifically for the larger customer segment, which I think is a bit more Autodesk's turf? Maybe if you could provide an update on competition generally. If you have seen anything, more or less from Autodesk, Bentley and Procore, for instance. To start with the latter, that we see Procore trying to come to Europe a bit more. I don't know how successful that really is. Other than that, no big changes in the competitive landscape. To be frank, right? Yes. And- Product development really I think the question around the federated or integrated, I think that is a slight misunderstanding. I don't think we were targeting necessarily the very big AEC end customers with those products. The engineers and the architects working together in those examples. It wouldn't be completely different customers from the type and the nature of the customer or the size of the customer as we've been building them up over the last years. It's just that we can attract additional ones and we can expand the stickiness and the happiness and the satisfaction of the existing customers because now we make their life much easier. No doubt, we have a lot of respect for some of the American competitors, the one in particular that you mentioned, being very embedded in large accounts. This is something we will and cannot change overnight. Maybe we don't have to in that respect, but if anything, then we'll be successful gradually there and attack clearly with the full competence of the broad portfolio of the Nemetschek Group, while defending our small and medium type of customer base. That's clear. Mm-hmm. Okay. Well understood. Thank you. Thank you, Martin. Operator? The next question is from Knut Woller, Baader Bank. The floor is yours. Thank you. Actually, two questions. Starting with the first one. When we look at your shift to subscriptions at Bluebeam, can you share with us what of that is a conversion of your installed base to subscriptions from perpetual? When we look at the growth targets you provided for the segments, what is really here coming from new customers? That would be the first question, and then I would have a follow-up. Right. Two difficult ones. Hello, Knut. Sorry to say, but I think we cannot break out the precise information as you wanted for the Bluebeam customer base, especially in the moment where we haven't even been officially announcing that. I think overall, again, the customer base, it's floating as well between the traditional ones, the new areas, we're winning, and competition is winning as well, so vice versa. I'm not sure we can track this really to come out with a generalistic overall answer, because of the structure of the market data. Sometimes we simply don't see it in the systems. We would have to have full visibility over all the competitors, which we don't, unfortunately, in this industry, as you probably know. Okay. I just tried to get a better feeling. Moving customers to subscriptions normally comes at a higher price tag, hence, of course, if you convert them, there needs to be an acceleration of growth. I just want to get a better feeling about the sustainability of this move. The second part of the question would be, I think you have done two price increases at Bluebeam in the last years, and I think you refrained a bit from doing a next price increase. If I read the shift to subscriptions correctly on the base of other players, what they have done, there's normally a price increase factored into a move to subscriptions at least that you can generate more money out of a customer. What do you think the impact on the churn rate of the Bluebeam space will be by that move? Fair enough, Knut. Again, I try to repeat myself. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but we'll try to do it slightly differently than some of those competitors. In Bluebeam, we've already stopped doing price increases. In the moment, we wouldn't see any additional incremental value for the customer. I think everything else would be just not ethically correct or unfair. Maybe also not doable, quite frankly. To get customers to accept that product, we've seen it in Maxon, and I think I've shown a chart to show you how successful this was. I think it was the first true showcase for Nemetschek as a group that we can really do this, that we can manage this, be it the back-end systems, be it the customer front end. That's the learnings that we take. I think today we're much more confident to do it than we would have done it three years ago. In hindsight, I think it is the right timing that we now do this. Again, we're not doing it for the entire company. It is sustainable, and we'll do it together with the customers. Last not least, Maxon was also a good example that we would have introduced this along with new features and innovations and functionalities. That to me must be the core, to get a customer to jump on a subscription. The alternative would be, of course, to put a pistol to their head and say, that "This is basically what we force you to accept," which wouldn't fit in our customer-centric philosophy at Nemetschek. You got to believe us that this has been well prepared, sufficient experience in-house, as well as from external know-how. We'll keep you updated as we go down that path. Okay. Thank you and all the best for this transition. Thank you. Appreciate it. Our next question is by Uwe Schupp of Deutsche Bank. The floor is open now. Thank you. Good afternoon, Axel. Hi, Steffi. Two questions from me. Unfortunately, probably more than nerdy ones, if you don't mind. Firstly, can you specify how big the COVID-19 savings were that you had last year? Your admittedly big sales force was obviously not able to travel all that much, and lack of client entertainment, et cetera. I was just wondering how big those savings might have been and any guidance that we should be fitting in for this year into our models. Secondly, the receivable allowances. They actually shot up, I saw, to almost 10% of receivables. I was just wondering whether you're just overly cautious or whether you're already seeing some customers filing for insolvency. Maybe do you see even a possibility in case the economy, the vaccinated economy, recovers in the second half, whether some of those allowances might be reverted back and added to your profitability? Thank you. Great. Hello, Uwe, and don't worry, we're used to professional and well-prepared questions. They're not nasty at all. I think it's a legitimate question. We would break out probably the kind of savings, quote, unquote, "savings" to an area of lower to mid-single digit, in the millions, I would say. You're right, we couldn't do all we wanted. However, we've invested some of that in digital, for example, sales and marketing tools as well. Then in Q4, of course, we had the guts to also invest in some additional work as we outlined before, and that drove the margin down a little bit in that quarter. Those, I'd rather call one-off. How much of those savings will continue to be in 2021? That's a frequently asked question, also in our company, and I'm sure in many other companies as well. With the announcement of a German super lockdown last night for the Easter time, it's clear that at least in the first half, we'll carry on some of those, that we cannot do as much, see a normalization as we maybe desire or wanted. As quickly as this can go as well, that could be an acceleration because it's very easy then to catch up with some of those things that we actually would like to do because there is customers, especially for the more complex products, that would like to get together with us also in person. Some of that, I would say, is sustainable, because we have just gotten used to remote work, for example. I'm sure similar to Deutsche Bank's circumstances as well. Others will, recover is maybe the wrong word because we're talking about costs, but activities will catch up. That would be my short answer to that question. Thanks. That's very helpful. On the receivable loans, any comment? I'm sorry, we didn't get this phonetically. Basically on the remark number, what is it, 13 in the annual report, you basically show your details. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah. On the DSOs- DSOs. Yeah. This is a cautious measure. We saw some trends and some indications and some statistics. They haven't materialized so far to a big extent, but we're rather being on the conservative side there, as long as the environment, I think, gives us all reasons to do so. You think you will be able to keep those even in the recovery scenario in the second half, or what would be the discussions with your auditor be? Well, the auditor was in full alignment. There was no uncorrected statement, no commentary, no nothing. I think it was very prudent. They've been running benchmarks with other companies similar to us and similar balance sheets. I think we were not too conservative. I think it was just prudent how we accounted for. We'll see. In the ideal case, this represents a small upside, if we can release some of those. Hopefully they'll not be needed, because that would mean bad payment behavior or dropouts from our customer base. Again, with the more customer base tailored to small and medium customers, that in our case is a little bit different than maybe to what some competitors have the beauty to just serve the very large accounts. That was the rationale behind. I think there's no reason to be worried. There's no reason to be overly optimistic. I think it was just prudent accounting. That's very clear. Thank you very much and all the best. Thank you. Our next question is by Deepshikha Agarwal, Goldman Sachs. The floor is now open for you. Okay, thank you. Good afternoon, everyone. Thanks for taking my questions. I just have two for mine. First of all, post the focus on transition of Bluebeam to subscription, which we guess is expected to be done by the end of early 2023. Can you give some more details on potential for transition of other brands to subscriptions going forward, especially in the design segment? Are there any specific brands that you expect to see more uptake of subscription there? The second one is basically following up on the questions on margins over the medium term. First of all, just confirming that you indicated the margin in 2021 is to be potentially closer to the higher end of that 27%-29% range. Given the 2022 top-line growth is also expected to stay in the high single digit territory, with the transition of Bluebeam still to go, will it be fair to assume that the 2022 margins remain broadly flat versus that in 2021? Yeah, I'm not sure everyone could understand the question phonetically. At least I'll try to repeat, Deepshikha. First of all, hello to this call. Yes. Thanks for your question. In terms of numbers, we would have said earlier in this call that we see the potential and the ambition to be rather at the higher end of that range of 27%-29% this year, 2021, right? In terms of the EBITDA margin. This is mid-end of March. It's relatively early, and our desire is to keep investors updated while we go deeper into this fiscal year. In regards to 2021, as well in terms of the growth rate, that's a minimum high single-digit growth. That was understood correctly by you, yes. We'll try to carry on with this also in 2022, but with a different content probably and a different mix, as one of the questions earlier on alluded to, in terms of the individual businesses, right? No surprise that build will probably be lower in 2022 than in 2021. Again, we're trying to elaborate on the overall group's performance. On your first part of your question, if I understood the comments correctly, what is the logic within the design segment, for example? As we said earlier in the call, given the customer base and the regional focus and footprint that we have in the Design Division or segment as of today, we'll continue a hybrid model to offer both licenses as well as subscriptions in order to address also new customers and keep those customers happy that we have on board. We will, however, increase our overall subscription portion from 5% today to 15% already in 2023, which is quite a move for the Design Division, which was a little bit behind the curve for those beforementioned reasons in the last, I would say, five years overall. That is what we currently see. I don't want to call out another Maxon or Bluebeam as kind of who's the next one. That's not going to happen from today's perspective. We'll see a gradual move step-by-step in the Design Division and in the design brands. Some of them, by the way, have already different characteristics. Because they're maybe operating with a different type of customers or in the U.S. region where we have different circumstances, so they have a higher share than the average. We're talking design as a division on average. They will gradually improve, not only subscription, but overall recovering revenues, to become more predictable somewhat and try to create value, again, for customers as well as for shareholders. Just a quick follow-up on the question, on your response to the margin question. What I was trying to come onto here is basically given there is still some transition of Bluebeam to go in 2022, what are the dynamics around margins in 2022 versus that of 2021? What are the levers that you feel that would lead to the margins maybe to expand or stay flat versus what you're expecting in 2021, in 2022? I see only little reasons to expand margin in 2022 from that high level, frankly. That to me would be very illogical when you compare your own studies in your company or in others and you go back the transition of the more prominent examples and bigger examples in our industry or in other industries. Typically, when you go through a transition, which we'll do in the case of Bluebeam, there's not going to be a margin improvement in the middle of that transition. 2022 will mark the most extreme point of that transition in a positive way, right? Because we'll have the most dynamics there in transforming that business from A to B. I see little reasons to expand the margin there really, in 2022 over 2021. Okay. Got it. Thank you. Thanks a lot. Thank you, Deepshikha. Let's not forget that the main reason why we do this is of course the outlook and at 2023 going forward, that is driving that rationale. That is driving our management's thinking that we're bullish, we're optimistic, not only that we can do it, but also that we can do it successfully, and that will create even more return and shareholder value long-term. We have the next question by Holger Schmidt. The floor is yours. Yeah, hello, everyone. Thanks for taking my question. One of your strategic goals is to reduce the complexity and also to increase the level of synergies. What are the measures behind these plans, how would you quantify the achievable amount of synergies by 2023? That's the first question. The second question is, you are now planning to accelerate the move into subscriptions. Do you also see a need to raise your CapEx? Where do you see the CapEx in the current and next year? Thank you very much, Holger. Good question. Well, let me start with the latter. We're not seeing a big change really in CapEx overall. In terms of how we run the business model, I don't see a necessity there or a need. In terms of again, the margin dynamics overall, also, I don't know, Steffi, if we have a comment there, but no big change. Regarding cost savings? Yeah. The cost savings in regards to the complexity. I'm thankful that someone asked the question because it was noted, obviously, that we did reduce the number of brands. That we negotiated some infrastructural changes that we will implement, some tools that all of the brands will use. That does decrease the complexity. I'm not sure, Holger, we're doing that in order to boost the margin. To me, my honest answer to you would be, we are doing that in order to prepare Nemetschek as a group to be able to handle EUR 1 billion of revenues, in the coming years. In order to be state-of-the-art in terms of processes and the way how we handle really our daily work. If we were to continue to operate in an extreme, decentralized, very diverse landscape of tools, organization, processes, then I would have some doubts whether we would be well prepared. That's what I would like to avoid. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. There are no further questions, and so I hand back to you, Mr. Kaufmann. Okay. Thank you very much. Yeah. If there are no further questions. No. Thank you very much for listening and the discussion. Afterwards, of course, we are happy if you have further questions, if you send us an email so we can set up additional calls. Thank you all for your interest and let's stay tuned and have a nice day. Wonderful. Thank you everyone. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for your attendance. This call has been concluded. You may disconnect it.