Look at me. Do you see a sophisticated system? 3.8 million years of nature's engineering to learn from. In the natural ecosystem, everything that lives circulates forever. How? It all started with a crazy question: Can we create textile fiber by using nature's own process, by learning from the master nature herself, by imitating nature, like how a spider produces its web? That question led us to invent a brand-new way of making fiber out of wood and waste. A revolutionary natural fiber, the first of its kind. 10 years of scientific research, thousands of trials, and vigorous industrial scaling has led us to this moment, benefitting the entire global textile industry with a process so clean and pure with zero harmful chemicals and dissolving. Zero, no compromise, because all T-shirts should be produced with only 1 liter of water, no harmful chemicals, side streams or waste, just like nature designed it. We produce a textile fiber that breathes, lives, endures, warms over and over again. That's the way nature has always done it. Spinnova. Hello, welcome to Spinnova's H2 and Full- year 2022 Results Webcast. I would like to draw your attention to our disclaimer. We will in the discussion have forward-looking statements, and these are based on the best knowledge we have today. Today in this discussion forum and on the stage, I have with me Kim Poulsen, our CEO, and Ben Selby, our CFO. My name is Sophie Ahlström, and I act as the interim head of IR at the moment at Spinnova. We will have a nice discussion today about what happened 2022 and the during the autumn. Ben, Kim, you started in August- Mm ... as CEO. Just I have to ask, what makes Spinnova so unique? Sophie, thanks for the question. Before I answer, welcome. Thank you. ...to Spinnova and thanks for being the interim IR. We are in good hands, so many thanks for that. Yeah, it's a big million-dollar question, right? To summarize it maybe in three categories in my books, I need to highlight and I want to highlight the people. I mean, we have incredible intelligence in the organization. We have motivation, we have commitment, and kind of a the DNA is very unique, and I have to say that the people are, you know, very much in the core of what we do. Secondly, we can undermine the technology, the unique technology we have in the hand. Yeah. That is, you know, really complimenting the people, the technology, right? Thirdly, compared to our size, the brand, how well it's recognized, you know, in the industry in general and especially in the brand's eyes, I think we have three components, people, technology and the brand, which are like the foundation for our business to grow. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Kim. Thanks. One reminder before we start, for everybody listening, you have a chat function under the screen. Please put your questions in there. We will take, answer them after the discussion. Kim, you mentioned people. Mm. You also mentioned technology and the brand, but the mission, the purpose of the company... Mm ... that's quite unique, that also. It is and, for me personally to show this mission statement, it warms my heart. It has a lot of components which are, you know, environment, humanity, change the, or transform the material base. It's very bold, right? Mm. It should be bold. Yes. We have unique technology, unique people, unique brand. We need to be bold, but we need to be humble at the same time. Of course, the underlying problem is that textile industry is responsible of 4% of the global emissions. Mm. It's a lot for this size of industry, right? Mm. The brands have promised to cut 30% of their emissions by 2030. Yeah. Which is a big promise. Mm. The silver lining of the whole thing is that now we, with the technology, the people and the brand, have tools for the brands to work on their promise. Yes. We are more than happy to do it. So I think it's, there's two sides of the coin, so to speak, but I think, you know, at the end of the day, the bold mission statement is very much in the core of what we do. Yes. The mission statement takes us. Mm ... naturally to sustainability. Yes ... The SPINNOVA fibre and what does that mean?For somebody who doesn't know, what can the SPINNOVA fibre actually compete with? Well, it can compete with a lot of things. We will talk about it little bit later. Always when I show or see this slide, I'm proud. Mm. I'm proud of the fact that we have a product with no harmful chemicals. Mm. We can cut a 99.5% of the water consumption- Yeah ... compared to cotton, for example. Yeah. 72% on, CO2. Yeah. I mean, that is just remarkable. Not to mention that the product can be recycled time and time again. Even if it's blended, it can be separated and used again. Mm. for me, this is... I mean, if one can be proud about something, this is what I'm very proud about, that it's... I stand tall. Yes ... representing these kind of numbers, values, technology, the people, so I'm very humbled and honored. Sustainability is, though, much more than, environment. For sure. It's very much about people, as you mentioned. Yeah. It's the people who do a lot of things in a company. Tell me a little bit how you as CEO look at values? This is an interesting question. I mean, okay, we have had values, right? Maybe last summer when I joined, we started to look at the engagement scores, the values in general, how do people feel. It's like measuring the pulse. Mm. I mean, we have intellectual people, smart people, dedicated people, but how do we, as a management, keep, you know, people motivating and fighting, despite the lot of turbulence, you know, around us? The values shown here are not invented by the management. Mm. It's been a whole organization, bottom-up process where we have asked people and then, you know, come up with these values and these small sentences underneath, what is in that value for us. Mm. I have published quite a lot about the values in general. My personal takeaway is, I might be old-school in that, but I like to be old-school, is that the values, they drive our business. Mm. This is how we operate. This is how we do. We are proud of the values, and I need everyone to comply, including myself, of course. It's driving our business and, of course, I hope it empowers people, you know, to be trusted, to take the courage, the brave move. As the mission statement says, we need to be brave. Yes. The values represent very much that. Yeah. Thank you, Kim. This was a good situation to go to the highlights. Mm. How brave were the personnel and how much did the values drive operations last year? Mm. I invite you, Ben, also into this discussion with Kim. maybe shortly, some, a few comments about the highlights for the first, or the second half year and for 2022. Kim, please. All right. If I may, I take two- Yes. ... to start with, as an appetizer. Of course, this, we have had the pilot line, and now we have the Woodspin number one- Mm ... which is the Eteläportti Jyväskylä. It was challenging circumstances in energy, logistics, you know, interest rates, everything. We managed to complete the building in time in October. Mm. We have produced this month's fibre. Mm from that factory. Now the next steps are that we're gonna go commercial, get the quality, the volume, and, and, you know, it's a ramp-up. Mm. I think that's the big ticket for us. The second, which is the third bullet point here, is the Respin has produced, and I will touch it little bit later. It has produced, but at the same time, the improvements on the quality and everything has been so good that we have decided to go to commercial phase. Mm on the leather waste-based products as well. Mm. We have decided it, and we, I will, you know, mention it later. We will start the feasibility and the pre-engineering of the leather waste factory as well, so we have number 1 up and running, commercialization ramp-up. Number two, now Woodspin number two on a drawing board, get the final details on the feasibility. We have the Respin, the leather waste-based. Yes. I think when we go back and look at the IPO, we have promised progress on the wood, but at the same time, other feedstocks. Mm. I think this is very positive news that we have been, you know, now finally up and running. Yeah Things are looking very positive. Yeah. Thank you. Ben? Yeah. Well, I think it was a really busy year, and as you said, Sophie, like, a lot to do with the people. Maybe a financial highlight was this was the highest revenues that. Yes ... kind of ever had in its history, so that's obviously great. I think coming to the people side, we made a number of key hires during 2022. Mm ... both to the operational teams, also some key management hires. Now I would say we have the team mostly in place to take us forward to the next stage, so that's very good. Of course, kind of hand-in-hand with people, we obviously deeply care about safety as well, so it's one of our top operational priorities. Even whilst having this huge construction project that we've had, we're really pleased to say that there were no lost time incidents. Yeah. during 2022. Oh, that was really good. Maybe the last, not the least. Yeah Is the commercial launches. Yes ... we did, you know. Well, we talk about it a little bit later, but it's good to see that there's brand demand and willingness to do the R&D together. Yes and develop. I think, there's a lot of pull. Mm. Now we now need to create a little bit of push. Yes. Thank you. We will continue. A lot was about production and ramping up the Woodspin 1. Mm Here is a lovely picture. A few words- Mm ... about this picture. Yeah. This picture is from Woodspin 1, Eteläportti, on the day, out of my memory, last week on Wednesday. Mm. The first fibers were produced, and when you look at the picture carefully, you can see, quite a lot of smiling faces there. My warm thanks to the team. I mean, there's been a lot of headwinds and turbulence, but these people have been, you know, shown resilience. Mm ... and, will to go through the thick and thin and really push it. I think this also links a little bit to our values that we succeed as a team. Yes. This is not only our people. There are Valmet people and other you know, stakeholders. It's a good way to show that, you know, at the end. Mm We will achieve whatever we have decided. To be honest about it, I mean, this is the dawn of the new era. We are from pilot. Yeah ... a industrial scale startup and ramp up. Yes. Let's dig a little bit deeper into Woodspin. Mm. It was maybe the biggest strategic goal last year. Yeah. Maybe worthwhile, using some time going through what actually happened and maybe a couple words about Woodspin 2. I mean, I visit the site every second week or so, and I don't want to be in the way for the professionals, but it's really impressive. It's a state-of-the-art facility. Mm-hmm. In terms of how the technology, you know, safety, flow, and then it's just second to none. It's a beautiful factory, including the release of the excess energy to the district heating. Yes Which makes it kind of a CO2 neutral, let's put it that way. Building was on time, on budget in October. Fibre has been produced, and now we're ramping up. We go to commercialization, and we will go with full steam ahead. Mm. That's the status of Woodspin 1. Yes. Then regarding Woodspin 2, we have done, and I'm telling a lot of work, because when we started the feasibility and the pre-engineerings and everything regarding what, where, when, how much, with who, and so forth, so it's a big decision, right? For us to jump from the Eteläportti to a to a bigger caliber- Mm ... exercise, we need to get it right. Yes. It cannot be half right. I'd rather analyze a little bit longer to make the right decision which we are confident about than rush into something which you're not that big confident about. Mm. The reason for this little bit of a, you know, reassessing one more time what we have done before is of course the macroeconomic circumstances. Yeah. Interest rates, energy prices, logistics, and everything. It's kind of a double-checking on a double-check. Mm. That's what we do. Of course the decision ultimately is then, the joint venture. Mm ... and the board of that, but we're not gonna go to the board with half-read paperwork. We're gonna have it crunched down to the smallest detail. Yes. So- Yes That's why we're still calculating a little bit. Yeah. Ben, how much did we invest into the Woodspin 1 factory now during 2022? Yeah. Well, I think you remember that we made the commitment with Suzano in the first half to increase the budget to EUR 31 million, and that's still kind of current. We ourselves invested EUR 12.5 million. Mm in total have now invested EUR 14 million into- Yes ... Woodspin. Yes. Thank you. We have another joint venture also, and that is Respin. Ben, would you like to comment on Respin or Sorry, Kim wants to comment because you have. Yeah ... have this with you. Sorry. Please. Yeah. Yes, I said earlier already, you know, every time I get to go to Jyväskylä, I want to visit the sites and see the people. This is actually maybe two weeks ago, the filament from the leather waste. Yes. And, and- Right. The quality is very nice. I think that is the key in this thing, that the drive that now the decision has been made by Respin, i.e., ECCO and Spinnova. Mm ... to move ahead full speed, with the feasibility study. Mm. Little bit the same what we do with Woodspin. Yes. At the same time, we roughly know the size of the plant and, you know, how much there's leather waste available and so forth, so we can. Mm ... the size of the factory. We're gonna start the pre-engineering. Ah. We're gonna go full steam ahead, and that decision has been made by both companies. I'm super happy about the highest revenues ever. Mm. Woodspin up and running commercialization. Yes. This, other feedstock. Yes ... Respin expansion. Yes. Thank you. Really exciting. Yes, it is, but it's not. It doesn't end there. We have other R&D and raw materials going on. Ben, maybe... Yeah, absolutely. ... a couple of words. I think like Kim said, you know, during the IPO we talked about the different feedstocks, and here we've spoken around Woodspin and Respin. The R&D hasn't stopped there, so we continue to investigate the use of other raw material sources. We've had, for example, pretty good tests with recycled fiber recently. Also, you know, we continue to evaluate the end markets and applications for our products. You know, already some time ago we worked with Pusu to release the skis as our first commercial composite product. Of course there's many other areas that we're also investigating, even though apparel is of course the biggest application area and we have many good. Mm ... brand partnerships there, but it doesn't stop with that. Yeah. Thank you, Ben. We're gonna jump to product launches and a couple of brands that we did do cooperation with during the second half of the year. Any comments before we come into them or look at them? Yes. Maybe very short comment. Mm. I mean, to launch a product with a brand partner, it's still a bit like getting engaged or married. You know, it doesn't happen by yourself. You need to have confidence. You need to have trust. Yeah. This it's kind of a joint R&D project. Mm ... where both puts the smart heads together and think how we can utilize the product there. I'm very pleased of the way that this successful joint R&D has worked with the partners. You know, they're all different, but still the underlying fact is. Yeah ... that with everybody it's a joint effort. Yeah, it's collaboration. Yes. Yes. Here. Of course it shows that our fibre is suitable for different kind of end users on apparel, but why not... Mm ... on other applications as well? Yes. Not gonna spend a lot of time on this. The Terrex hoodie was kind of a fast track project. Nicely implemented. Well done. The Jack & Jones, we launched in October 2022. I'm actually wearing them as we speak. They are really comfortable loose cut pants for. Comfi. Yeah, they are comfy for me. That's kind of a little bit in a way an affordable product for consumers. Marimekko, that was last year August. I think two takeaways from that for me has been number one, that they decided to use the poppy pattern. Yes ... you know, which is the in Finnish Unikko- Yes ... from 1960s. That's quite iconic. It's iconic. It's a flagship. Of course we are proud about that and humble as well. I think the R&D went well together. The second thing is that it's the first fabric which was printed-. Mm ... the pattern on the fabric ever. Now we have on the pipeline coming Spring 2023 this, Halti, this parka jacket. Mm which is in the picture. Let's see how that goes to the market. Yeah ... to wrap it up, great R&D, different kind of projects. Yes ... good cooperation, and. Yeah. We keep on pushing. You keep on pushing. We have a picture here of, on all the brands that we are. Mm ... collaborating with. It's a great bunch of brands. Yeah, 2022 was also a year of awards I think. There were so many awards that Spinnova got. What does it mean for the team and for the company to get awards? Well, first of all let's turn it the other way around, that we haven't been pushing ourselves to any competition to get the awards. We've been nominated by somebody else. Mm-hmm. To get all these, you know, big things like, you know, TIME Magazine, and Deloitte's Capgemini's SME companies, and then there's a long list of these. Yes ... trophies and recognitions. That links back to me to our brand. Mm-hmm ... and the technology. They're not really tangible, you know. Yeah ... in terms of P&L or money, but it definitely tells that we are doing the right thing. It gives a lot of self-confidence and motivation that despite these early stages of growth... Mm-hmm we are recognized, we are appreciated and acknowledged as a player. Mm-hmm. For me, that's a confidence builder which we can kind of put as a fourth element under the brand maybe. Mm-hmm. That's our foundation that we know what we're doing, we do it smart, we do it disciplined, we do it systematic, and people recognize it. Yes. It's also nice to tap on the back- Yes. Yes. Yes. ... sometimes to get recognized. I agree. Thank you. We're gonna move on to key financials. Ben, I haven't asked you so many questions yet, but now you're gonna talk all the more. If you give the highlights in the key financials for the second half and for the full-year, that would be really good. There was so much going on. Mm ... as we have heard here today, all that turns into money. Now, Ben, it would be interesting to see what happened and how? Absolutely. Yeah, well, I think as we touched, you know, the first or 2022 as a whole was record revenue, so EUR 24.3 million up significantly from 2021. The business reason for that was the delivery of the first plant to Woodspin. That was the main factor in the growth of those revenues. If we maybe go to the other side of the P&L and look at the result, at the same time, of course, our loss did increase while we've been investing in ramping up operations. The loss for the year was EUR 12.3 million. The reasons behind that were increased personnel costs, mainly from new hires, but also some, of course, cost inflation that has been seen across the board in, into salaries. Sorry, can we go back to the. Yeah. Oh, Oh, sorry Yes. The... Sorry, can you go back to the... We're still on the operating result? Yeah. Yeah, the biggest reason was the increase in personnel expenses. On top of that, we had other operating expenses also increasing. For example, the number of premises now that we have several sites in Jyväskylä. We have our Helsinki office. Marketing costs have also increased. Mm ... as we've been going, more into the commercial phase. It's worth of course pointing out that, you know, in our numbers as well, we do recognize a contribution from the joint ventures. Of course, whilst Woodspin is ramping up, there is a cost to that and their loss is half recognized in our P&L as well. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Those are the main reasons for kind of the operating loss increasing. Overall, the materials and services increased roughly in line with the revenues related to the tech sale. Yeah. If we look at then a bit more at the people side, so as said, the, the personnel number increased, and we ended the year with 75 permanent members of staff. This was, you know, investments into the core operational teams, so especially, for example, into the project delivery team to make the Woodspin factory get up and running as Kim talked about, but also some key hires into the commercial team and other areas, and then some select hires to the, to the management team as well have all impacted then the numbers here. I think it's important to say, and what, you know, Kim and I obviously have been looking at very carefully, you know, we now believe that we largely have the team that we need in place, so that's great, and we don't expect that the costs will or the number of employees will increase significantly going forward at least at the same rate. Yes. I think, you know, what is important also for investors to monitor, of course, is our cash spending, so, you know, there we touched on the P&L items, but, of course, we're making quite significant investments. The biggest investments were of course into Woodspin itself, and during the year we invested EUR 12 and a half million, so that's the majority of what we spent in terms of cash on investments. The total impact in terms of outflow was EUR 17.7 million during 2022. As we talked about, of course, you know, we are all about the technology, so we invest in our own R&D as well, and there's a then of course a part of that that's related to our own capitalized R&D... Yes ... costs. Thank you, Ben. Yeah, then wrapping up with the cash position, so we ended the year with a strong cash position, EUR 76 million, you know, even after that significant kind of spending both from the kind of operational expenses side and then also the investment side. I would say, you know, strong balance sheet position as we stand. Very good. Thank you, Ben. Mm. Before we go to the Q&A, let's go through the progress of the year once more shortly, a reminder and the outlook and the financial outlook. Kim, if I may ask you to go through the highlights. Sure. It's a recap of what we have been talking about. To me, I said the highlight was the Woodspin, it was the holy grail. Mm. We got it done. Yeah. Now it's producing fiber in the ramp-up phase and the commercialization phase. Big ticket item. Of course, there's a lot of raw material related developments ongoing and that's normal. The feasibilities of the Woodspin where we have to dig a little bit deeper just to make sure that we make the right decision. Then this new horse in the race kind of thing, the Respin, which was decided not too long ago, we're gonna start the feasibility on that and the pre-engineering. We still feel that the market is positive. There is demand for our type of fibers and, I think the mid-long-term targets are intact in a way that there's positive, kind of a sustainable demand available for the products once we start moving ahead. Very good. I think we covered most of this. Yes ... but I, maybe to sort of obviously comment, you know, we're not operating alone in the world. Of course, like the macro environment has changed, compared to the end of 2021, for example, and obviously higher energy prices and impacts to material price inflation and supply chain. Mm-hmm. Of course, potential higher costs of financing will have potential impacts and actual impacts to Spinnova. Like you said, Kim, the kind of long-term outlook for the on the commercial side is very good. There's no change that we see to that. I think we can even say that we believe with Woodspin coming online and there being more fiber available, that this can actually increase the interest because it enables us to actually have more fiber available to engage with different brand partners as well. Mm. I think, you know, we would say positive on the commercial side. Yes. Thank you. That leaves us with the financial guidance for this year. Ben, please. I think, you know, in the end, the important thing we see Spinnova, it's more about kind of what we're building for the long term, but we obviously want to, you know, give some kind of outlook to investors on what to expect for the next year, and you've now had the backdrop of the longer term outlook. We continue to work on executing against our strategies. As Kim said, the long and medium term targets are intact. But, you know, what we have as a moving part related to then how the numbers are going to look during 2023, the biggest kind of part that will move there is the timing of the final investment decisions for the next Woodspin and Respin plants, and that will obviously have a significant impact to when we get revenue. So it's not- Mm ... about the amount, but it's about the timing. Based on our current expectations, we do therefore expect that during 2023, because of the phasing of that technology sales revenues, we will have lower revenues than in 2022. At the same time, the loss will increase, even when we are, you know, scrutinizing costs and we are keeping the team largely as it is. Of course, there's kind of part year effects versus full-year effects when it comes to the personnel costs as we hired people through, you know, the course of last year, and now we'll have them for a full- year and- Yes ... and so on. Yeah, that's the short kind of outlook from the financial side. Yeah. Thank you very much. Thank you both. We're gonna continue with the Q&A session. Thank you everybody for listening in, and I will remind you that please use the chat function below your screen and ask your questions. I will give you a minute to put some questions because I need a little bit of additional technical help here. Bear with me a minute. You got it working? Yes. Excellent. Yes. We have a lot of questions here already. All right. This is good. Good stuff. Let's start. We have the first question is about the spinning factory. What is the situation with the spinning factory? Spinning means the yarn spinning. When we know, maybe this is for Ben. Do you expect to turn positive results now, or in full-year 2024? Well, we are not giving guidance beyond we, you know, we have given the 2023 guidance, and then we have our medium-term targets, which are to get to EBIT positive, and that timeframe for that was 2025-2027 for the medium term. Yes. Thank you. We have a question coming in that asks, "How many Spinnova production plants are needed for 1 million ton of production? Depends how big is the plant. Yeah. Exactly. It depends how big is the plant. Yeah. If it would be EUR 50,000, then it's EUR 20. Yes. If it's EUR 20,000, it's EUR 50. Mm. Yeah. Maybe, to this question, what is the cost of the SPINNOVA fibre if we compare it to cotton? That's okay. Cotton has many prices. There's traditional cotton, there's organic cotton, and so forth. It is more expensive, and it should be, right? Mm. You know, we are the sustainable option. When we've been producing with the. Mm ... not to have the Eteläportti, not to mention the next plant in the game, eventually. We have said that gradually, when we get bigger and get the critical mass, the price point will come lower because the CapEx per ton will become lower. Now the difference is big. Mm. In mid-term, we need to get closer. Mm. We still like to, and will have a premium because of what we do in the mission statement. Yes. Thank you. We have a question also about M&A. Is there any M&A activity in sight? No, we do not have any M&A activity in sight. I thought you were gonna answer that if you knew, you wouldn't tell, but since you don't, you can't. Mm. That's right. There's nothing ongoing. Okay. We continue with the questions. We have a lot of questions here. That's great. Dear audience, if we do not ask your question, please free to contact IR, I will help to answer these questions that are then not answered in this discussion. Maybe a question about people. Mm. Spinnova personnel increased quite a lot last year, so here is a question about there is a lot of talk about shortage of talented personnel in the Nordics and Europe. How does Spinnova attract the best talented talents in the future? I can take it if you don't want. That is, first of all, it's a great question, and the problem is mentioned in the question as well. I don't want to sound arrogant. I want to be humble about this, because of the mission statement, because of what we do, sustainability, environment, humanity, you know, kind of big-ticket items, if we open a position, we will get a lot of applicants, high-caliber applicants. Knock on wood, we have been blessed that the story about what we do and what we will do is carrying a long way when it comes to people as well. So far we haven't had any major issues of hiring, you know, the good talents. Mm On the market. It very much relates to the ESG story we have in the hand. Yes. Thank you. We have, how much of the production from the first commercial factory has been sold? Have you sold some of the volumes from the upcoming second factory already? Well, let's put it the other way around, that there are, like we talk in the launches, we talk about the joint R&D and so forth. To sell something, you need to do your own testing, you need to do the customer will do testing on your fiber, then you will have trials, and they will go to the test marketing. It's a long process. Mm. Of course, we have supplied the brand partners from the pilot line. Now we're gonna supply them from Eteläportti and do the same steps more or less. Mm ... before real commercial commitments can be made, that it's coming from this factory, this line, and it works, and so forth. Saying that, we are very confident that there's, once we get the fibre out and, you know, the test done, that there's more demand than we have capacity. I don't lose my sleep because of that, but it's a journey where you have to take, you know, systematically to the end. Yeah. Thank you. We have a question. When thinking about your mid- and long-term strategy, which Ben just mentioned, what kind of issues or risk do you have identified that might affect the execution of the strategy? How are you mitigating those identified risks? Yeah. Well, I would say we have a kind of very comprehensive, and regular follow-up on the risks and also the opportunities, that we follow in the management team and with the board. I think, you know, there's a whole list of those that are in the report in terms of. Mm-hmm The laundry list. It's sort of hard to pick on one or two kind of issues there. Of course, you know, we're not kind of operating in an island. As I commented in the guidance, I mean, the general macro environment can have an impact to us. I think, you know, the way I look at it is that it's about timing. In the long term, you know, this is the right game, it's just the question perhaps of how the risks kind of can impact us in the short term in terms of, you know, perhaps short term kind of demand, timing of investment decisions... Mm ... availability and price of funding. I mean, those are sort of some of the short-term risks. In the long term, I think we are seeing much more opportunity than risk when we look at this mapping exercise. Yes. Mm-hmm. A question related to this a little bit is that, the financial market was quite turbulent. Mm ... due to the Ukraine war and the pandemic, how much did this impact operating results? Well, I think we were quite fortunate that it didn't directly impact us very significantly. The biggest impact was again the kind of supply chain issues that we talked about that, you know, we're still very proud that we actually despite those kind of challenges managed to deliver the Woodspin plant and have fiber produced in February. When it comes to higher energy prices, you know, directly or indirectly related to the war, this had a relatively limited effect actually to our result in 2022 given it's been the pilot line that we've been producing on. That hasn't been. Yes ... a very significant part of our costs in 2022. Yeah. Very good. Here comes, we haven't had our mobiles on, but, one of our investors, is commenting that the Spinnova share is now down 7%. Why? Well, we do not comment. No. ... our own share price. Yes. I think we have updated on the results. Yeah It's up for the market. Yeah take its view on what those mean. That's the case. Next question is asking that, "Who or which do you see as your closest competitors, and why? Well, I think I'm going to repeat myself. Okay, we have multiple initiatives in this kind of a, let's call it the green arena. You know, feedstock can be different, right? Still. Because of the size of the total textile market, the green initiatives are- Mm-hmm ... so small in the big picture that I mean, there's room in the market for everybody. Mm. We are rather feeling that we are brothers in arms. Yes. Of course, considering the antitrust and all the laws. Mm. Everybody has a good agenda, and there's big enough market. We don't feel... Of course, the competition is the traditional textiles and fibers which are not so green. Yes. We don't feel that the actual green initiatives would be the competition. Yeah. It's the traditional. Yes. Thank you. We have a question in Finnish. No way. Tim, I will. Ben, it's yours. ... give it to you. Maybe a question to Ben, regarding technology sales. What should we expect for 2023? Well, we have given the guidance, right? I mean, the majority of our sales is coming from technology sales, we are saying that those will be lower than what we had in 2022. Yes. Thank you. Next question also, how much should we expect Spinnova to invest into Woodspin in 2023? Again, we're not gonna comment on exact amounts. Of course, as Spinnova invests into Woodspin, then, I guess there are two parts to it. We will invest, you know, partly to provide some working capital as the first plant is getting up and running, and that will be, you know, some amount I think we already disclosed actually in the financial statements bulletin that we have agreed to invest up to EUR 4.4 million, contingent on Suzano doing the same. That's mainly to recover the sort of working capital and ramp-up. The question of how much more we invest will depend on the next plant decision is made and how quickly the phases of that move forward. Kind of too difficult to give anything more precise for that. Yeah. I'm not letting you go easily today. Mm-hmm. Are the rising interest rates affecting Spinnova? They are not directly affecting us. I mean, we have some money market investments and, you know, there was obviously some turbulence at the beginning of last year which had an impact on those. I guess the kind of rising interest rates, you know, that will be as and when we. It will not directly affect Spinnova, but it may have an impact on, for example, how we raise financing for the next Woodspin plant. Yes. We have a investor who is asking or saying that, "It would be important that we would get coverage, analyst coverage for our stock and share." 2023. Correct me, Ben, Carnegie is doing analysis on us? That's correct, yes. That we have. Let's see. A difficult question, and, let's see if there is a comment to this, but, what is the cost structure for Woodspin production? Well, we, yeah, we have talked about this and opened it up in the prospectus for the IPO and there's not really anything kind of more to go into detail beyond that at this stage. Of course, you know, the biggest components are the raw material cost, so the microfibrillated cellulose that is coming from Suzano, and then there's the kind of energy cost and also the MFC is also containing within it a relatively large proportion of energy costs. Those are the two biggest components in the cost structure. Okay, thank you, Ben. Question, do you plan to use different source material for the commercial factories, and different from the MFC? Well, I think we, today we just explained that we're gonna use waste leather... Mm-hmm In the Respin, when we do the feasibility. Of course we are studying. We have had straw, recycled textiles. You know, we're testing everything. Time will tell what the end game is, of course we put the R&D efforts to the ones in the pipeline, but also look at the other feedstock. Yes. Thank you. We have a question about the second Woodspin plant, and that it has been mentioned that it would be a 50K plant. The question is that could you comment on the most relevant aspects of the planning items of that factory, and what effects where it's located and the overall investment decision? Sure. I mean, I can make a short list, not a long list. I think the drivers, as Ben said, is the raw material price. It's the CapEx, i.e. meaning that when we talk about 50, 40, 60, or whatever the right number is, where's the optimal point to get the economies of scale? Because after some point it doesn't improve anymore, even if you increase capacity to find the optimal point of capacity to get the economies of scale. Mm-hmm. We of course need to think about logistics. Mm-hmm. One big ticket item is that we need to think is it a brownfield or a greenfield. Mm Which links back to the size. There are multiple places available, brownfield- Mm ... greenfields also, but, you know, to put it in numbers to understand the optimal size brownfield, greenfield, and not to undermine the cost of energy. Mm. The outlook of energy is pretty foggy depending on what country you look at. Maybe that's also what we need to think. CapEx, raw material, brownfield, greenfield, size, timing, energy, and logistics. Thank you, Kim. That's a short list. We have a longer list. Yes. Thank you. Kim, you mentioned energy, and at the same time, Ben, you just said a second ago. Mm ... the energy prices, increase hasn't had a big result effect yet. Maybe to make this really clear, why is energy important but it didn't have any impact this year or last year? Last year we had the pilot production, so the relatively small scale, and then we have obviously the energy usage for our office space and so on. energy, relatively small proportion relative to our cost base and number of employees last year. obviously as we will be ramping up Woodspin, and the production there, then the energy will be a bigger part of that. Mm. To be clear that it won't be directly hitting Spinnova's cost base. Mm ... because we recognize just the share of the profit or loss from the joint venture as one item in our own P&L. Yes. It will affect Woodspin. The joint venture is a 50/50 joint venture. That's correct. Yes. Correct. A question comes on still the Woodspin second factory. When should we expect an investment decision? That's a good question. Of course, it's ultimately the board who decides it, the Woodspin board. The management is doing the update on the feasibility to get everything aligned one more time. Then we take it to the board, so it's up to the board, but we do have board meetings very frequently. We will make sure that the data is available for the board and when we leave it to the board. We have a question on that is Kim to you. Mm. What will be your focus in 2023? What will your, be your special focus? Well, I think if it would be one, it's difficult, but to list few would be definitely this forward looking to complete these two feasibilities and engineerings, Woodspin number two and Respin. Mm. Three is the commercialization of Woodspin 1 to get it to the market and be active with the brand partners and all of that. Four is very much people related that make sure that the team in place is motivated, hungry, and fighting spirit is high because this is kind of a resilience marathon run- Yeah ... to work with the people closely and, maybe those four would be the key things. Of course, then we can have the Eteläportti ramp up, and that would be the five, I guess. Yes. Thank you. We complete those 5 this year, and then we have a clear direction where we're gonna head. Yes. Thank you. We have, this is more for the CFO again. Cash flows, is the rate feasible? Net change in cash was around -EUR 90 million in just six latest months in 2022. Of course, a lot of that was related to the investments into Woodspin and the CapEx spend there. You know, I think our expectation is that. Well, I think I gave some indications already and kind of, you know, we've said that the loss will increase in 2023. You know, we've given some information on what the kind of expected investments to Woodspin are. I think people can have a look at how they can expect the kind of cash flows to go for 2023. We're not commenting further on that. Okay. The cash position is strong. I mean, EUR 76 million at the moment. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you very much. Everybody listening, thank you for all your questions. I'm gonna do a last question to Kim and Ben. For those who we haven't answered, if we haven't answered your question, please be in contact with IR at Spinnova, and I will help you getting your answer. Last question for today before we close this discussion, what keeps you awake? What is? Is there something that is really disturbing your night sleep? I can take it first, and I assume that this is work related. This is work related, yes. Yes. I have a kind of a mindset always that try to focus on the things and solve the things which are in my hand. Mm. Not to get mind boggled about the things above that because that's not in my hand. Mm. You know, macro is what it is, and competition is what it is, and so forth, but, you know, how do we play the best game within our box, which is in our jurisdiction? Mm. I think that helps me to sleep. I'm not a great sleeper. But I don't lose my sleep because of work. I might see dreams about it, but I think to stay focused. Yes. Thank you. Ben? Well, I think as the CFO, I have to say it is the macro side, but, you know. Very good. Yeah. Thank you both. Thank you for the discussion. Thank you everybody listening in. I hope you have liked and gotten clearance in what happened last year, some of the progress that happened in Spinnova, and what's coming in 2023. 2022 was a huge year. A lot happened. 2023 is gonna be as exciting. Keep tuned, and we say bye from the studio. Bye. Thank you very much, and have a good day. Thank you.