Welcome, everyone, and thank you for joining us for this fireside chat with Glenveagh Properties. I'm Colin Sheridan, real estate analyst at Goodbody Research. I'm delighted to be joined today by Stephen Garvey, CEO of Glenveagh, and Michael Rice, the CFO. The session today, we're hoping will take no more than about 45 minutes, just discussing the main themes on the, on the stock. Glad to say many of you have submitted questions in advance, and we'll address those as we go through the session. But if you feel any further burning questions that you'd like to ask, towards the end, there is the option, as you can see in the top right of the screen, to mail me, and I'll try to get to those towards the end. So if any of you see me checking my phone towards the end, it's not necessarily because I'm bored. But just getting into it, guys, Stephen, maybe a few reflections on 2023 off the back of your trading update this morning. Sure. Thanks, Colin, and, Happy New Year to everyone. I suppose we were here this time last year. It was a bit of a difficult, trial. That, that twelve months ago was a difficult day in the sense that we just come out with results at that point in time. We had to move down numbers due to planning delays in the system. And I suppose we had to get where we thought the year would be. I suppose the three big priorities first, as we turned into the year was planning permissions to get planning through the system. That was the number one priority for us. I think we've had a huge success in that, with 4,600 units, and we've a number of other applications that are coming through the system as we speak, so we're probably touching 5,000 units turning into the year. So that's a real positive. We've seen big momentum in the new LRD system, so we transferred from SHD to LRD. We're seeing our schemes come through the system in about 16 weeks, which is really positive. We've seen some schemes come through quicker. So Large-Scale Residential Developmen t in the new system is working really well. And the other things we're seeing on the planning side is planning policy. So the big change that we're seeing coming is the Compact Growth Urban Design Guidelines. They're coming out. They're expected to be. They've already been in draft. They're being approved by Cabinet, so we expect them to be published over the next 2-3 weeks. Pretty much what we had proposed to the government, we believe they've gone with about 90% of that, which is a positive. What that will do is that will allow us apply the same densities that we've been required, but will allow us to achieve more outdoor housing, which is a big positive. So this will really be positive towards the, particularly our suburban side and, and where we have developments that would, you know, trans from urban to suburban, so the likes of Oscar Traynor Road and sites like that, that will be a real benefit. Other things that we're seeing in the planning system, so there's obviously a Planning Bill that's working its way through, and that's a 2024 that's going to come through. It's a massive document, over 700 pages. And I suppose the key themes for us is planning is complicated, it's become complicated much more, and the key themes for us is what we're seeing working at the moment is time is critical. So the big difference in 2023 is decisions were being made, whereas in 2022, they were just in limbo for too long. Time is critical. If we can keep that, where when we lodge an application to come out to the site, we know exactly our dates, then we know what we can do, and I think that's the most positive thing we've seen in 2023. What we hope the planning will do is reinforce the statements in the sense of what Section 28 and things like that, to make sure that there's clear guidelines there between what you can and can't do. So we're watching that closely. Then the other big thing that's gonna happen, that's coming down the track is the government are reviewing the National Planning Framework, and this will probably set up somewhere between 40,000 and 50,000 units as being the minimum amount of units that are to be delivered a year. That will align it to where the land should be available, so in EMRA, which is Eastern Seaboard, and then the four other cities across the country. There's a lot of debate at the moment. I know there's numbers out there from 40,000-60,000 that have been rumored by the Housing Commission, but it's set to somewhere between It's going to be a minimum of 40, we believe now, which will be a positive. The big thing we're looking for in that is that the headroom rate is much higher. So the amount of land that can, you can apply for permission versus the amount of units commenced. That's the broader scheme, because some of the developments have become so big, where you have 1,000 units in development, you're not going to commence all of them in a 12- or 18- or 24-month period. It just gives a much bigger headroom, because that's what's happening in some locations where you're coming up against the caps, and that's an issue. So that's another positive coming out. I would definitely say we've seen a sea change in planning in the last 12 months. Certainly, I think policy is going in the right direction, so that's another positive. The other big factor for us was our manufacturing. So, you know, we had our operation in Dunboyne. We obviously bought the Arklow facility, and then Carlow was another acquisition. But Carlow was, you know, we had no operation in Carlow, was get the operation up and running there. Great place to be now, turning into January, that we have the capacity to do 2,000 timber frames on our own, makes us the biggest supplier in the country at this point in time. All of the stock is for ourselves at this point in time. As well as that, we've light gauge steel operation that we're using for, 11 apartments or duplexes. So we've got the manufacturing where we want. We've invested well in that. We have it now in a position that can do this over the medium term, so we're very happy with that, and we're already starting to see the benefits across the business there. The final thing, and I suppose the other priority was partnerships. This time last year, we didn't have planning on the partnership sites. We'd actually only signed one of the partnership sites turning into the year. Both sites are now up and commencing. So we've about 1,300 units across the two partnership sites, just started. So that's another big positive, I suppose, there with the three milestones. And really, where we want to position ourselves was, we knew 2022 was a difficult year because of the issues we had planning. Was really set the business up for 2024, and I think we really have a very good test now at this point in time. Great. And in terms of going back to the update then this morning, I mean, in terms of hard numbers, Michael, it would be fair. Do you want to talk through maybe what was the most pleasing aspects of those numbers? Yeah, I think as, as Stephen kind of said, coming off, you know, where we were earlier in the year, you know, it's a, it's a really good outcome for the, for the overall year. I think when you look at the suburban business, and it's always kind of been the, sort of the bread and butter of, of Glenveagh, you know, having, having, you know, increased suburban revenue, having increased suburban margin. You know, there's, there's always a lot of focus on that suburban margin. So coming out with a 20% overall number, but, but even a 19.3% underlying housing, housing margin, when you strip out the land component, is, is really strong. You know, we, we guided approximately 19, and, and to be able to kind of, you know, push the, the far side of 19 is, is, is really, really positive. To touch on one of Stephen's points around manufacturing, it kind of goes to show that when we're starting to get our standardized house type in with the suburban business, when we're starting to get the factories operating correctly, there is margin progression. And I think going back 12 months again, there was probably some question marks as to, you know, how are we going to see that suburban margin progress, progress. And it's great to see that kind of coming through already in 2023 and, you know, with 'cause we probably said 2024 is going to be the first year you sort of immediately come through, so it's probably progressed a little bit better than we thought it would. Maybe if we move on then a little bit to the broader housing picture in 2024, and what kind of trends you're seeing at the moment. You're calling out inflation, both in house prices and build costs that look like they're running in roughly mid-single-digit kind of territory. What kind of pressures are going on within both house price inflation and build cost inflation that you think will start to manifest in the next few months? I think we kind of called it this time last year, that we expected the new home market probably to move up another because of, particularly with the government initiatives that have been rolled out. So you obviously had the extension of Help to Buy, but then yet the First Home Scheme really got into operation in 2023. And we've seen those outcomes, and I suppose for us, what's the real positive is, in a number of our locations where we're operating, particularly for the product that we're now supplying, its purpose is designed to work well under the caps. So we, we see that as a positive. I think the main underlying factor when you look into the commencement, that's commencement is moving up. But actually all indoor housing, which is the predominant product that purchaser or first-time buyer wants, is still at the same level. It's not actually increasing. And I think that's, you know, the supply side is going to be limited there going forward. So I think that's a positive for house prices. I think the other factor we're probably seeing is as you move back into the back end of 2023, we started to notice this in the attendance was, there was definitely where, you know, at the start of 2023, you might have only had one or two parties hundred. That had moved up to five or six as we got to the back end of the year. So that's a positive. We are in a pretty good place now where we're locked in for 2024. What's becoming the big benefit of the business is the manufacturing element of it. And we've actually seen a shift there as well, in the sense of, we would have kind of had the rule of thumb that material was 40%, labor was 60%. As we've evolved and as we've standardized the product and as we've moved to more manufacturing base, we're actually now closer, maybe, to the 50/50 mark, which has different dynamics for you as you move forward because you can hedge materials better. Your exposure to labor market is kind of more subdued. So, yeah, I think that's a positive. I don't think, I don't think I'm gonna look 12 months out and say to myself, "I'm gonna see surprise now on labor." I don't see that out there at this point in time, particularly for the volumes that we're ramping up to. So, it's in a good place, I think. Referring to the starts, I mean, there has been a noticeable uplift in the aggregate figures, I guess. As we get closer to the end of the levy exemption period for starts, which is in April of this year, I mean, is it realistic there could be a closure, even if there is, is that likely to lead to a really material increase in supply that could threaten that build cost inflation picture? No, we don't. Like, yes, absolutely, yes. Has it moved up? It has, probably up to 20-odd%. But when you get into the hard data of looking what it's starting, there's an element of, there's a lot of big apartment schemes that are starting. You see the LDA starting a number of schemes. You've seen us working on a number of schemes in the system as well. So I don't think there's going to be a glut product that suddenly is going to pull on labor. The other thing you've obviously seen is, you're seeing other markets, you know, be it the commercial market that's coming off, so that's freeing up labor resources as well. So I don't think that's going to be an issue. The trend is going to be interesting, where does it go? Because you're really looking at the planning data, what's coming out. Now, we've been very successful this year in the sense of, for the last 12 months, what we've got through, we've a good line of sight of where we're going to be for the next 12 months. But we're not seeing the flood of other applications coming through the system. And that's really telling. What we're starting to see is the smaller operator, they're more looking for a 50-60-unit site. They're looking for partnership. They can't find them out there. That's not our market, but they're looking for them, and they're not finding them at the moment. That tells us that they're not, they're not available there. So, it's interesting, I had a call yesterday with a small operator. He had a site that he thought he could put the system, he's just not. And he's looking for a site. He just has nowhere for his operation to go. So that's kind of a sign of what's happening there. I think you're seeing more big schemes are probably moving the dial at this moment in time. Yeah. You spoke about 2024 guidance and your comfort with that, or certainly the current consensus number that's in the market at this point in time. It's always been the case that from last year was going to be a significant step up in relation to the absolute amount of ability. Relative to the last time you'd have spoken to the market, what are you seeing in relation to the operation of the business that maybe given you or might give investors more comfort around that stuff? I think we were, because we had, and, you know, if you go back to last year, people kind of raised this 1,300 units business. We weren't 1,300. We had, we had an element of large partner schemes that we were forward funding, so we had a big operation at that point in time. I think the, the sea change I'm starting to see, and Mike, you mentioned the point, the standardization coming through the system. It's not just the standardized product, it's the standardized process from start to finish, from the planning system to the day we hand over the keys to customers. That's really coming to the fore. And I think that's the big difference to this year. The amount of sites that we're starting where with our own design product, with our efficiencies found, we know how to manufacture, we know how to do it at speed. I think that's the difference. I'll just give an example. A site we started in April or May of this year, we were already at our 200th unit standing in that period of time, and that's simply down to the efficiencies we're finding now in the system. What has probably evolved more in the last number of months is how we're migrating more towards big sites. So our operations are now moving to much larger sites. As with generally Ballinasloe, Kilmartin, Brownsbarn, all these sites are moving bigger sites. We're moving much higher volumes. The underlying demand is there, which is the most positive. Like, we're able to drive much bigger volumes out of sites, which is a benefit, and we're not affecting our underlying operation, underlying margin in those sites as well, which is a positive. With that profitability for 2024 in mind, Michael, how should we think about the cash flow cycle over the course of that year, and how leverage might develop as the year goes on? Yeah, I think I suppose first and foremost, we're pretty happy with where we've ended the year, EUR 51 million net debt. It's, you know, it's certainly below, I think, most people's expectations. So I think, you know, again, we've managed to manage the balance sheet pretty well at year-end. I think you'll see a very similar cycle to previous years. You're gonna see that, you know, significant cash spend in the first two quarters. You're going to see a, you know, a different net debt number at half year to obviously what you see at year-end. I think you're probably just as a growing business in terms of absolute numbers, you're going to see higher levels of net debt as we kind of go through the first half of the year. I think the big one that we want to get comfort on going into 2024 is around partnerships and getting our, I suppose, the industry and the market, just getting their head around what the partnership cash flows look like. You know, we have a large component that's going back to the state. We've got a component that's going to go to Approved Housing Bodies. We've got a private element in Ballinasloe, so with a lot of different tenures, you know, and given that we're only starting off on these sites, we're gonna have to invest, you know. In line with a large site, we're gonna have to invest at the start of the site, and then we're probably gonna see the actual cash flows kind of coming probably realistically towards half year, and then obviously in the second half of the year, so, you know, more substantially. So I think, as I said, you're going to see that kind of arc throughout the year. We'll finish the year, no doubt, in a strong net debt position again. You'll see a higher level of net debt at half year. But as I said, given we're a growing business, given we're investing in new segments, you're going to see a higher absolute number of net debt at half year. I sense, and I suppose one of the features of the announcement today was that we haven't expected revenue to be generated from the partnerships business until this coming year, as opposed to 2023. So it must be quite pleasing to see that come through. But maybe you could walk us through the accounting policy that drives that revenue generation and what people should expect to see in the PN going forward. Yeah. So I suppose, going back to my previous point, there's a lot of different tenures and kind of to. It's probably not the time or the place to get into too much complexity. So on a high level, because we're building on state land, you know, we don't take title of the land, it effectively falls into the bucket of percentage of completion. So I suppose the reason we've been able to recognize in 2023 is because we've actually started construction in 2023. So we're, you know, round numbers, we're about 1%-2% through the overall project. Therefore, we can recognize 1%-2% of the overall revenue of the project. So as we get through the project and at the end of the year, if that moves on to 8% or 9%, again, it'll be 8% or 9% of the overall revenue of the project. So the beauty of the partnerships and what we've always said is, it'll be relatively steady revenue and relatively steady margin as we kind of go through the overall life cycle of the development. Now, going back to my previous point around cash, there will be, I suppose, a slight disconnect between how we recognize revenue and the cash that's coming in. So again, you will see a higher trade receivable number coming onto our balance sheet than in previous years. But I suppose our task through the forward funding and through working with local authorities is to make sure that that cash is coming on a regular basis. So, you know, it obviously benefits our cash flow, but, you know, our trade receivable balances doesn't grow in any sort of meaningful way. Understood, understood. Maybe just getting into a little bit more of the Nuance of the 2024, the likely moving parts there. Couple of questions involving margin in particular, what is going to be the bridge between 2023 to 2024 in terms of margin business, and, what, what might be the main points driving those? You know, the, the examples being inflation, you've kind of covered, but, the development levies, the manufacturing that you've mentioned, and, I mean, somebody mentioned land tax, which I think means RZLT, which is obviously more like 2025, 2024. But, how, how does that bridge look to you at this point in time? I think on suburban, as we kind of talked on earlier, I think we start to see the first benefits of standardization and manufacturing. So I think that margin progression in kind of the underlying business continues in 2024. So we'd like to see further progression from the 19.3% that we saw last year. I think on the partnerships, as I touched on, we're going to contiNually see that, you know, somewhere between 14% and 15% or even 15.5% margin on the partnership business, just depending on the different tenures that are going to come through, but it'll be, it'll be pretty consistent. And then the urban stuff, you know, we've talked about that 10%-15% range, certainly for last year, depending on new deals, et cetera. We've obviously touched on the possibility of new deals in our statement. So I think very much any movement in the overall margin for the business is going to be driven by the mix of the three different segments. So as you can appreciate, partnership coming in in a more meaningful way, you know, approximately EUR 100 million of revenue in 2024 at a 15% margin is going to, for the want of a better phrase, drag the overall margin down slightly. Suburban will move on, and urban will probably remain relatively flat versus 2023. So I think broadly in line with where we were this year on an overall basis, but the mix within that suburban, slightly higher partnerships coming in, in a more meaningful way, and urban in the middle, pretty much flat. That makes sense. And, I mean, pulling that all together, then, what, what, what do you think that means for shareholder returns in 2024? Listen, I think we've always been very straight when saying if there's excess cash, we'll return it. I think, you know, we're whatever, the tenth, eleventh of JaNuary. It's, you know, it's early in the year to kind of start talking about capital returns, but you'd like to think we've kind of built up a reputation or built up understanding that if we call out excess cash at a point in time, there's going to be it. I think going back to the cash flow point, we'd like to see a little bit more visibility on how partnership plays out. We'd like to see a little bit more visibility on the LDA deals that we're hoping to do. But as soon as we have visibility on that, and as soon as we have excess cash, you know, our policy hasn't changed. But if, you know, we don't intend to leave cash sitting on the balance sheet. If we're hitting our three capital allocation priorities and there's cash left over, our ambition is always to return it to shareholders. We just, you know, at the moment, we just need to see a little bit more clarity on a couple of elements before we're willing to take that jump. Great, thanks. The land market's seen, you've done some deals, obviously, in 2023. How does that feel in terms of both value and liquidity at this point in time? Happy with the value in the sense of it's, it's hitting a few metrics between gross margin and return on capital employed. Obviously, some of them are structured deals as well. So there's 4 of them, of the 6 are structured deals, which is positive. You know, we're, we're not paying for the assets until they get planning permission. We're seeing that more and more happening in, in the land market for ourselves. It's all own-door housing, so it's really adding to the suburban side of the business. You know, we kind of feel that the suburban own-door housing is, is somewhere between 35 and 45 thousand units for own-door product, and that's been in a very, very stable place for, for the last number of years. Kind of overall sense of that, and I kind of break the land market into three at this point in time. The biggest player in the land market now is the state themselves, and we've seen them quite active. You've seen the kind of Clongriffin deal that the LDA did there just pre-Christmas, where they bought over 2,000 units at EUR 20,000 site, and these are all urban apartments. So I think they're setting, you know, and, and I know John Coleman came out and called that, you know, EUR 20,000 site is where they think the value of that is going forward. So that's one element, and the state are going to play their role, and they're going to invest. I think the Minister has called out on a number of occasions that the state themselves will activate their own land, but also go into the land market to buy in. I think they have an ongoing program that's going to be up and running there. You have structured deals out there. I think that's something we're able to do because we've got the credibility of working with the local authority and getting planning permission. You've got the RZLT, which is there in the background. You know, people have got that, and they know it's coming, so that's making people focus their minds. And then you've got, I would say, you've got the smaller range of sites. I think they're the ones that are trading at a bit of a premium out there at the moment. For us, we're very happy. Like, if we clip somewhere between 1,000 and 1,500 suburban units a year, perfect, and if we can get structured deals, happy with that. There is opportunities out there. We're certainly seeing an element of, L arger sites that are probably an element of distress, in the sense that people are just getting out of it now at this stage, and they're struggling slightly. You've to wind down a loan that's coming as well from the middle of 2025. So there's different dynamics out there, on trade, so it's interesting. The one thing that really sticks out to us at the moment is the state now are probably the best part of 150,000 units of land, which is phenomenal. It's, it's when you look at some locations, you just see how much land they have now. And I think the real challenge, what they're trying to do is that how can they start to activate that land going forward? So I think for us, the big play is, you know, we've shown how we can work partnerships. You've just show how it can be done. You can show how you can deliver the tenures. It's getting into that opportunities where we're really focusing on now to expand that, because I think that's just the state are there. They have the land, they have the need, and they have the capital. It's just how you work with them and how you expand that going forward. It's probably preempted my next question slightly, but it was, effectively looking at the three businesses within Glenveagh- Yeah. and where the opportunities lie. You know, suburban will obviously clearly be a backbone of the company. Yeah. But there are elements of opportunities, certainly in partnerships, as you say, but actually, your urban division is now seeing a little bit of additional potential there, too. So how do you see those evolve in terms of the opportunities in the next few years? Yeah, I certainly think, as Michael outlined, that the suburban side of the business is going to be the bread and butter. You know, 2,000 units a year is kind of a comfortable space for us. We think that demand is there. I think the partnership side, and I would kind of, I think your urban and your partnerships are going to evolve, in the sense that they're gonna kind of come more closer together. Because, you know, the buyer of urban out there at this moment in time is going to be the Land Development Agency. It's going to be the Approved Housing Bodies. It's going to be some of the local authorities. So there's your preferred provider at this moment in time. I think what the opportunity is, it's gonna kind of come down to is the state have the land, but the state don't have the skill set to get it turned into product. They don't have the planning resources in the sense of dealing with a planning application and bringing it through the system. The resource at this moment in time to adjudicate on it, but to actually put applications through the system, they know they don't have the resources for that. And I think that's where they're gonna turn to the likes of ourselves and other major players to do the entire process. Take the land, master plan it, choose the mix we want, give it to us in a program and a cost. And I think that's where the big opportunity is. The state probably would play the biggest role in urban apartments, because that's where they see the greatest challenge, and they see that supply we need to take up. But there's going to be opportunities where you're gonna have developments, where there's suburban housing as well, because the state has land in so many locations. So ideally, if I was to find the positions by the end of the year would be, we have two major projects on the go. If we could get another two, be it the LDA under the present agreement, what they're trying to do out there by bringing the forward funding into the system on one of our own sites, that'd be brilliant. As well as maybe looking at something with one of the agencies as well. Because I kind of think the ways I look forward is, the opportunity is probably somewhere around 2,000 partnership units through the various tenures a year, is probably where the opportunity lies down the road. It's getting into the right sites, because the sites are all of scale as well. The average runway, we think, on a partnership site is probably given 200-250 units a year. So if we got somewhere between. Over the long term, I'm thinking here now, is somewhere between 6 and 8, that'll be a good position going forward. Brilliant. Okay, thank you for that. Just coming on to the manufacturing facilities, we've obviously touched on, on a couple of occasions of, you know, seeing some benefit now more likely to arise from the current structure of Nua, which is mostly timber frame and a little bit of light gauge. Digging more into the medium term, what's next for Nua? Is that kind of a steady state that's in the background, or is there more that can be done on the integration process thing now? I think the ways we've positioned this, and just to give the dynamics, is there's 2 forms of construction you can go. You can go 2D, you can go 3D. 3D is ultimately going full volumetric, where 85% of the product is complete. We have seen a number of failures across the world in that, people have invested huge swathes of money, and unfortunately, they've failed. We've always believed internally in Glenveagh, that the key to this is the design at the start. If you don't have the design right, you will fail because it all comes down to the cost of producing the product. Volumetric was always more expensive than standard construction, but the key was as labor costs eventually moved up through the cycle, that you could catch up with yourself. I think where we've seen the real benefit is 2D. So this is a panelized system, and I think we've accomplished that really well. Like, our turn time from when we have infrastructure in the ground, when we've the base of the house in place and with the utilities, we can turn a unit in 10-12 weeks. We've reduced our, our lead time dramatically, and that's finding efficiencies. So we think at 2D, we're a very happy place. We've got where the cost need to be, and to really squeeze it much more doesn't make sense to us. The real goal for where we're probably going is how we intertwine our, our heating systems going forward, what they look like. Because our house has to become more sustainable. Now, we're already at A1, so there's very little room for that, but in the sense of producing the house, that's where the efficiencies are going to be. So it's probably certain sectors of the unit, as well as maybe the likes of how we lay out our infrastructure, how we do our groundworks, things like that. That's, that's probably where we're looking at to really, because they're the high-cost items. Like, as I would always say, it's the 20/80 rule. Chase the 20% that are putting 80% of the cost into the system. We've done a large on that. It's going after the next ones, is probably where we're looking at. The 2D system is very, we're very happy where that is. It's now looking at the other components that we add into the system and see where we can look at them and what, what we can bring to the table there. Yeah, no, it does. I suppose pulling a lot of that together, and looking at 2024, you're estimated to pretty much hit your return on equity targets over the course of this year. Taking some of those aspects which you're starting to deliver on, whether that be manufacturing, the I suppose, deferred land terms, increased amount of partnerships, does it feel like there's more levers to be pulled in Glenveagh in the medium term on, on ROE? Yeah, I think, look, it's a big year for us in the sense of getting there. And I think that was obviously, we were a long way back from that a number of years ago, and people never believed it. But we're certainly a lot closer now, which is really positive. As I've always said, 15% was never a ceiling on the business. It goes back to, look, we need to see how more efficient we can get. I do think there's probably another turn in our land bank in the sense of getting it into the right place. You know, we've been bringing that from, I think, EUR 750 million a number of years ago, down to where it is. It's really getting there. But there's still another element of a turn into it, and we just want to get that turn right. So we'll see. Look, as I've always said, it's not a ceiling. I couldn't give you exactly where it is going to be, but there's certainly potential upside down the road. It's all about getting the right things in place. Partnerships will definitely help, the more of those transactions, the deferred land. I think land is kind of the way the government are positioning it. They're trying to keep the land market in a very stable, low-cost base, because then it can't be blamed for where house prices are potentially going to go. I think they've set that trajectory out a number of years ago. I think they've put the tools in place in the sense of if they decide to go out with the RZLT, the potential for land hoarding tax that's going to come in into the future. All of these elements are designed to keep land prices in check. I think the LDA are kind of calling it where they want numbers. So, I don't think that's going to be. It's all gonna come down to your pure cost of producing the construction of it, and that's, I suppose, for us, where we've led with manufacturing. So yeah, there's levers that we can pull. I think the biggest thing for this year is you're finally getting the flywheel to really spin properly. We've been trying and trying, you know, and it's been a long journey to get it to size, but you now have it sized. Once you get it to size, you get it spin properly, of course, you squeeze a little bit out going forward. Yeah. Okay, thank you. Moving on more to audience questions now, which have been sent in from everybody listening in. So, I don't take any responsibility for the phrase. There's a couple, obviously, on political risk. There's potentially a general, or there's definitely a general election on the way. We don't know quite when it's going to be. And people wondering about how you perceive the political risk of a shift in that government at this point in time. Definitely for 15 months anyway, at the max from, from definitely now, from whatever government will be formed. I think the one way I would look at this is, well, whoever goes into power needs housing, full stop. I think every political party have nailed their future to housing, so they need solutions. I think these rumors that are flying around, which can reduce the cost of housing, that are being led by certain people, it ain't reality, and they know it, but in the end of the day, you can say anything before an election to a certain degree. I think the challenge is going to be they're going to need housing, and they're going to need it delivered. The other real benefit is the state have the capital at this moment in time, so, so that's a positive. I wouldn't have. As I have seen people talk and, and been engaged with them and stuff like that, I think their realization is politicians could always easily blame private sector. I think there's bigger components behind it now that they really see, and they see challenge. Perfect example is, if someone's saying that house prices should be EUR 300,000, the Land Development Agency and, and Dún Laoghaire producing houses in a, in a jurisdiction, the state government of Dún Laoghaire, for EUR 455,000-EUR 460,000, and they have no land costs, and they have no margins to worry about. So that's you can't blame the private sector. So the reality of what you are seeing is the private sector will probably be most efficient to deliver it. It's just working with them properly, putting the right mechanisms in place, making sure the planning systems are in place and stuff like that. Because the one thing that I don't think politicians do realize is, every time you're delayed, the cost of everything has to move up. So speed is of an essence, and the quicker you can make the system from start to finish, the quicker you can deliver a more efficient product going forward. Yeah. I suppose glad you covered the 300,000 question, because that was the next one coming up. Somebody talking about a high rate of under occupancy in Ireland, which I guess is true when you consider renting histories and things like that. It's a problem that the U.K. has as well, I'm sure, and a lot of the OECD. But concerned about future shadow supply, I mean, is there anything there in relation to unlocking on our house supply? I think the one that stuck out to me was, and it was actually interesting. Remember when the Revenue Commissioners were being pushed into, remember, the Vacant House Tax that they were bringing out? There was talk out there that we'll find 40,000-50,000 units that were unavailable. They're not there. They only could find 3,000 units. units. The vacancy level, and this is where I think there is an issue in the census and what's going out there is, first of all, the census is coming in at five point, just under five point two people, 5.2 million people. The reality is the administration data is pointing to a much higher number, so the population is actually bigger than expected. I would wonder is a lot of the census that are picking up actually obsolescent stock. It's not actually, like, looking at a house, and there's windows and there's a front door, the roof at the back is missing. It's not vacant, it's obsolete. And I think that's the challenge of really how much vacant stock is out there. Because I don't know many landlords that are leaving their units vacant. There is locations where you're finding it, certain, maybe in Leitrim or places like that, but the majority of locations, the stock isn't vacant. We believe anyway. We certainly see it. Just from ourselves, the pressure we see on our employees in the business trying to get a unit to rent is phenomenal. So, I think it's a, it's something that needs to be examined. I think there needs to be a proper database set up. I think the Revenue Commissioner spoke about it and didn't see a whole lot out there. There is issues with absolutely where you've got the Fair Deal system and probate and all that, where units are not being let. But the minister has already come up with mechanisms to incentivize to rent that out. So yeah, I'm not so sure there's that much out there. Yep, you're right. Somebody asked me, just in relation to the urban division, more generally, whether there's a risk on that side around the office development, which was the only bit of commercial you guys have, but is that an issue for forward book? I think the way I'd look at the office development is it. First of all, it was in the broader context of what was in the dock. So, you know, we've monetized about EUR 220 million to date in the docks. The office had to be built as part of the hotel, 'cause the hotel was the transaction. Both had to come together. What I would point out is the office is non-core business. It was a one-off transaction that we do. It won't be repeated again. It's a cash for cash flow transaction, so we're not worried about it. I I suppose the most important point for us is we have the lowest cost in the sense we have zero land cost in that development. It's just construction cost. We're not too concerned about that. We absolutely understand how the commercial market's going out there, but we're not going to get too worried about it at this point in time. Okay. Understood. A question about buybacks specifically and how the company thinks about, say, IRR and buybacks and whether to do those or whether to make more sense? Sorry, I think if we're having this conversation two months ago, and we were at EUR 0.95-odd, it'd be different. I suppose, you know, the share price has ticked up nicely. So we've always said we see a lot more value in the company than what it's currently at, and I think it's fair to say, even at current share price, we still see plenty of value at that point. It goes back to the earlier conversation. At a point in time when we feel we have excess cash in the business, we make the right decision at that point in time. So, you know, if we have excess cash later in the year and the share price is wherever it is, we'll look at that. You know, it's something we contiNually discuss at board level and, you know, we'd love to be in a position where the share price is high enough that it's a real meaningful debate. And I think as the business matures, and we've been very clear with this, you know, as the business matures and we see, you know, the steady state in some of our segments, you know, that's the point in time where we really start talking about dividends. So, you know, when do we get to that steady state? When do we, you know, reinvest in the business with in line with our three priorities? Listen, it's not, it's not a decision we have to make today, you know, touch wood, it's a decision we have to make later in the year. At that point in time, there's three or four or five different factors to weigh up between buybacks and dividends and et cetera, et cetera. Listen, hopefully, we'll get to make that decision later in the year. That's clear. Thank you. And the final one then, which was mailed in as well, and from, I think a couple of people actually just talking about the capacity of the business. Effectively, what does the potential size of Glenveagh feel like now? And somebody else asked in a different way, what would it look like in 3-5 years? Which is affixed right there. Look, it was a big journey. You know, we started off with a big, huge land bank at the start, but then had to build the machines, which it absolutely should reverse and do things slightly different. But it's astonishing the position we've ended up in. Next year, we'll be the biggest provider of housing in the state. We produce more housing than anyone else that's done in this country. I think that's a phenomenal achievement in a short space of time. I think it's what we've done on the journey as well, in the sense of, you know, we stuck to principles. We believed in manufacturing as best for business. We believed in the long-term view of partnerships and working that kind of product was a place to go, and I think we've been proven right about all that. I think there's plenty of capacity into the system. I think it goes back to my point, it's how much the state can feed into the system. And I think if you look at it this way, there's numbers out there that the state are gonna commit to somewhere between 10-20,000 units, it's probably likely to be 20,000 units. That's a huge opportunity, which just position, particularly for the skill set we have. We're not a contractor. We have the skill set of master planning, getting through planning, working the end customer, all of that stuff. That's a different concept altogether. I think that's where the opportunity, and I suppose the way I was trying to put it in the state yesterday was, or this morning was, you know, the state have the land, the state have the mechanics of the Land Development Agency, housing agencies, local authorities. They have, in fairness, put the policies in place. I have to give some credit to the state. The state are a bit like this, if you're trying to push them, they go slow. Once they start moving, they move. And I think that's what we've seen, that they've really started to move. And I think the final thing is the skill set we bring to bring that around. I think that's where the big opportunity. So I can see us certainly doing a lot more of that, and I think that's the opportunity we're seeing coming. Yeah, of course, it'll get better. Of course, it'll get more efficient, but that's what we're working through. Great, and I think that's a good tone on which to end. So gentlemen, thank you very much for joining us. Thanks to everyone for listening in. If you need any more details or need to get in contact, again, you have my email on the top of the screen. Thanks a lot, and we'll be speaking soon.