Ladies and gentlemen, I Welcome you all to the Q4 and FY25 post-earnings conference call of Control Print Limited. Today, on the call from the management, we have with us Mr. Shiva Kabra, Joint Managing Director, and Mr. Jaideep Barve, Chief Financial Officer. As a disclaimer, I would like to inform all of you that this call may contain forward-looking statements which may involve risk and uncertainties. Also, a reminder that this call is being recorded. I would now request the management to detail us about the business and performance highlights for the period ended 31st March 2025, the growth plan and vision for the coming year, post which we will open the floor for Q&A. Over to the management team. Hello everybody. I am Jaideep Barve, the Chief Financial Officer of Control Print Limited. Welcome you all to the earnings conference call for the fourth quarter of the financial year 2024 of Control Print 2024 2025 Control Print Limited. We appreciate that you have taken out time from your busy schedules to attend this call. Thanks for that. Mr. Shiva Kabra, the Joint Managing Director of Control Print Limited, also joins me on this call. For first-time joiners on this earnings call, more information about CPL can be obtained by visiting our website. For information, the detailed presentation has already been put up on the website, as well as in the investor presentation notification on the exchanges for this call. Let me provide you some highlights of the performance of CPL for the Q4 of FY 2024-2025 on a standalone basis. Revenues from operations. On a standalone basis, the total income for Q4 is approximately INR 114 crore, which is a good growth from approximately INR 98 crore in the Q4 of financial year 2023-2024. The total revenue for the entire financial year 2024-2025 is INR 395 crore. Just for information, for 2023-2024 and 2022-2023, the total income was INR 347 crore and INR 295 crore, respectively. Pipes, food, dairies, steel and metal, cable and wire are few of our top-performing business verticals. We have finalized the staffing and sales strategies to build up and ramp up the businesses for the tracking phase and the packing divisions in FY 2025-2026. Our outlook towards the sales and profitability of these two divisions is positive for FY 2025-2026. Expenses and profitability levels. The cost of goods sold on a standalone basis is around 41% in Q4. There is a slight improvement from the Q3 of the current financial year. It was about 43%. On an annual basis for FY 2024-2025, the cost of goods sold is approximately 40%, which is in line with last year. That said, the management remains committed to optimize the procurement costs and also look closely into the economy, efficiency, and effectiveness of operations. This, we feel, can definitely lead to a reduction in the operating costs and overall profitability. Manufacturing costs remain at 3% of the total revenue for 2024-2025. It is similar to the complete years of the last two preceding years. Employee costs are 14% of total revenue in Q4. In comparison, this was 17% of the total revenue in the third quarter. That said, on an annual basis, this has remained steady at 17% for the current year and the previous year. Other expenses are 14% of the total revenue in Q4. In comparison, this was 15% of total revenue for the third quarter. This remains steady at 13% and 14% for the current year and the previous year, respectively. The EBITDA growth was 10.4%. The way forward for us will definitely push forward in the Track and Trace and the Packaging segments. We will have focused marketing and sales strategy and capitalize on the given market opportunities. We will monitor the revenues from both these divisions, both in India as well as overseas. Overseas subsidiaries will continue to be monitored with focused good targets. Business plans have already been mandated for execution. For Coding and Marking, the install base will be increased, focusing on increasing the larger market share. With this, I will leave the floor open for questions. Thank you, Jaideep. All those who wish to ask a question may use the option of raise hand, or you can drop a question in the chat window. Also, we request our participants to limit the initial questions to two per participant. Participants can now raise hand to ask their questions. We'll take the first question of Arnav Sakhuja. You can go ahead. Hi. Thanks for taking my question. In Q4, we had slightly lower gross margins, which was because of a higher share of sales of printers. I just wanted to know, going forward, what is the level of gross margin that we can expect in our business? We are looking at gross margins on a close basis. Honestly, it all depends on the sales and the product mix. If the consumables percentage of sales increases, obviously, the percentages would go up. It also depends. It's a combination of two factors. One is optimizing on the costs. Secondly, on the breakup of the product mix between the printers, consumables, spares, and the after-sales services. Shiva, you want to take this ahead? Hello? Shiva, are you there? You can continue, Jaideep. Yeah. Yeah. I guess I've answered your question. Okay. Also, just wanted to ask one more question. In Q4, we saw a negative tax expense of around INR 45 crore, and this is also reflected in a deferred tax asset. What tax rate can we expect going forward? See, I'll tell you, our Guwahati project was under Section 80IE. We had those benefits, and we were eligible to claim the MAT tax entitlements. What has happened is that in our MAT, we had a credit of about INR 49.57 crore. Since now, there's a virtual certainty that we can realize the same out of profitability in the next two-three years, and the project entitlements will cease, have already ceased as of today. We recognize the deferred tax asset. We are positive that in the next two years, we will make sure that we don't have to pay any tax, and the deferred tax asset would be used for that. Okay. Thanks for answering my questions. Yeah. Thanks. Now, we'll take the next question from Madhur Rathi. Please go ahead. Sir, thank you for the opportunity. Sir, I wanted to understand regarding this coding and marking Codeology that we acquired, and they had some products that we were missing. Sir, what is the growth plan for this segment going forward? Sir, how big is the opportunity in India? Sir, can we expect the margins in this segment to be similar to our India coding and marking business? Sir, second question would be, on the Track and Trace that we are pushing further going forward, how is the revenue model and margin for these segments? Is the additional cost added on the printers in the beginning, or is it more like a software-as-a-service kind of a revenue that will be getting going forward? In earlier phases, the cost of the COGS or gross margin might be declined. On that front, thank you. Hi, Shiva. You want to take this question? Hi, Shiva. Vinay, I'll take this question. Yeah, please continue. Yeah. So Madhurji, your first question was related to the Codeology business. Now, the Codeology as a company, it provides a holistic solution. It is much more in addition to the pure coding and marking business, what we do. It involves the conveyor systems, the coding and marking, the end-of-line print and apply systems. It is a holistic solution what we offer in Europe. It will be beneficial for the Indian company to synergize and make sure that those products and those solutions also are applied in the Indian industry. That would be a unique proposition for our business. Regarding the growth for the Codeology Limited performance in the U.K., there was a bit of recession for them in the year and a half before. Now it has been ironed out, and there is good order pipeline with us. We believe that the next year would be a good, profitable business for the standalone Codeology U.K. operations. Regarding your query on the Track and Trace. Are we ready to begin? Yeah. Hi. You want to talk about Track and Trace, Shiva? So Madhurji asked a question about how are we capitalizing on the Track and Trace opportunities? Yeah, would we see a reduction in the costs for that business? Sorry about that. I think my audio got disconnected without me realizing that. I'm ready anytime if everyone can hear me. Yeah. Shiva, we can hear you. Yeah, my audio got disconnected. I couldn't hear anything for the last two, three minutes. I thought maybe one question due to lineup or something is happening, whatever. Yeah. Shiva, are you able to hear me now? Yeah, I can hear. I can hear. Okay. There's a question being asked. Jaideep, you can repeat that. Yeah. Shiva, Madhurji is asking a question about the opportunities in Track and Trace going ahead, and would we see a reduction in the operating costs for this segment? Yeah. So Madhur, the Track and Trace business has two components to it. The first is the compliance, which is the essential element, which is the essential element that everyone needs to meet. Everyone has to be compliant with the new government rules, and also for certain export markets, these rules are in place. In that market, there are four major players similar to how Domino, Videojet, and Imaje are there. I'd say ACG, which is also a well-known company in India, Jekson Vision, and to a certain extent, PharmaSecure and OPTEL. These would be the four major players in this business. There are some smaller players who do have a fair amount of sales, but I would say that these are the four key players in this business. For the compliance perspective, these are the four players that are used by most of the large customers. In terms of what we need to provide, obviously, we are providing a compliance-based solution, but we're giving some extended benefits beyond compliance. We're giving some extended benefits beyond compliance to a lot of these customers. That's sort of what a USP is. If you're anyways implementing the solution and you can get a lot more benefits out of it, then that's sort of where we are coming in. There is some stuff that maybe got also about three key patterns in this area, which we'll be looking on. On a technology platform, we are trying to come in on a sort of technological superiority basis and compete with some of the established players. This previous year was more about. Shiva, I think we lost you. I don't know why my mic is disconnecting every now and then. The previous year was about establishing ourselves in the market, establishing our solution. Obviously, there were certain holes that we had to fill in terms of providing the best. Sir, we can't hear you. Okay. I just got disconnected and reconnected again. I'm not sure what's happened. Previously, it was more about establishing ourselves. The market itself is quite large and is growing. Right now, I'll say against the pharmaceutical market is the addressable market. I think, Shiva, we lost you. Can't hear you. Okay. I'm just reconnecting, hill. Yes, sir. Yeah. If this thing doesn't work, I'll just connect on from the Zoom from my phone. The thing is that the addressable market is. I think there's a problem at your end. I suggest you connect from the phone. In the meanwhile, we'll take the next question until Shiva can join back in. Sure. I have a sub-question regarding, sir, what would be the market size for this Track and Trace currently? A sub-question would be, sir, regarding the revenue and the cost front. Sir, are we adding the Track and Trace solution to the revenue at the start of whenever sales are done, or it's more like a Software-as-a-Service model? Initially, the cost of production or cost regarding the employee cost or software would be high? Logging in again from my phone. Just admit me in. Yes. Yeah. Okay. No, actually. I said I'm logging in from my phone. So just admit me on the phone, please. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Thanks. Continue, Madhur. Yes. Shiva, I wanted to understand regarding what would be the addressable market for this segment and what would be the rate at which this. Sorry about that, guys. I just got disconnected out there. Can you hear me now? I hope this is. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Better. Okay. Yeah. The market is quite large in terms of the Track and Trace. We estimate it to be about INR 400-odd crore as of right now. Like I said, it's mainly geared towards the pharmaceutical sector and certain other regulated sectors. There are certain things like agrochemicals, which include fertilizers, but especially pesticides and seeds, which are also governed under this. Now, even one or two other new sectors like explosives and some other types of things have come under this category. I'm apologizing again because I don't know why I'm having these speaker-related issues with my mic. Anyways, now I'm just connecting from my phone. The market is there. Definitely, we are expecting significant traction because we had a good response last year. We were implementing some projects, and I think that was more for a proving ground that we had to do with some major customers. Now, the type of pipeline that we have is significantly better than what we had. More importantly, our experience and understanding of the market is much better. Like I said, we have highly differentiated solutions compared to the four existing providers. Obviously, it's something I'm going to wait for us to maybe have some more sales. I need to speak also to some customers to see if we can disclose anything because these are all confidential projects when we work on these types of things. We've got a good platform there. Shiva, on the revenue model, sir, this INR 400-crore market size, sir, is this only the equipment market or equipment plus the software part of it? A sub-question would be, sir, how are we pricing this? Are we adding the whatever solution or software that we are going to provide in Track and Trace at the start of the sales on whatever equipment plus whatever cost is there? Or it will be more of a software-as-a-service model, and that will help us in margins going forward? There are two components to this. There is an equipment component. Obviously, as you know, our primary business is to supply the printers. So obviously, there are the printers. There are vision systems. There are certain types of mechanical conveyor systems, ejection rejection mechanisms, also some agglomeration so that the primary is connected to the secondary, is connected to the tertiary. In certain cases, this whole situation can be more complex. It all depends on the production line that the customer has. When we talk of about INR 400 crore-INR 500 crore, that is the size, including the equipment. Over time, the software part of that business is increasing. I mean, this is just an estimate of mine because, again, ACG especially, who is the biggest in this business, has other businesses. OPTEL is a global provider. This is our estimation of what the business size is. But it's growing. And this is in India. Essentially, what happens when you sell a piece of equipment or this thing, you sell the software with it, and then you charge for the software on a per code basis, a per print basis, like a per QR code basis, or you charge on an AMC for the line for the year. That normally depends on the production that's there on that line, but also the amount of what the cost of that specific line is. You can say, in general, if you sell a line for INR 100, normally the AMC charge would be INR 15-20 would be the software charges, which would be a recurring charge after the first year. Got it. Just a final question from my end. Sir, regarding the losses that we have been incurring in our subsidiaries, sir, should we expect this INR 4-INR 5 crore per quarter to be the bottom number, and going forward, it should improve? Or how should we see this going forward? Like I said, in the original platform, we had discussed the packaging business. The losses are largely in the packaging business. The Track and Trace would have a relatively much smaller type of an investment. That is happening in India. That is not happening at a consolidated level. That is a sort of different business platform compared to what we are doing right now. Definitely, we are expecting, like I said, it was a two-year plan for turnaround. I do want to say that we bought the company on March 24 in 2024. Literally, we just bought at the beginning of the year. It has taken some time for us to just get the operations to a normal set of operations. I do see that we have got a better type of a pipeline and growth there. It is going to take some more time to turn around. What we are doing is we're getting better results, a set of results that we're expecting this year. We're going to continue investing in that business. I'm expecting that the operational losses will come down. What we're going to do is we're going to try to be focusing on scaling up that business. In terms of a cash flow situation, it might not be any different. In terms of operational losses, I think we lost about, other losses. Jaideep is on the call. Jaideep, you can answer this. I think it was about INR 20 crore approximately, if I remember right, in the year gone by. We definitely expect that to reduce over the course of the year, if we look at an overall annual basis. Right now, we have to understand that we are selling more machines, and the machine sales and the revenue associated with that is sort of lumpy. That is a bit up and down in terms of what sort of profits we derive from that. As the number of machines increases and these machines get online, then the materials business will be a stabilizing factor in that business. So far, what's happened is that the machines we sold, we've been taking a long time to sort of dispatch them and install them. We've sold one machine, which we just installed in the Middle East, I think about a month ago. We've got two more machines, one which is just commissioned right now in India. We've got a third machine which has been sold about six months ago, but we've not been able to dispatch. It's been shipped, but it's not been delivered and installed. What's going to happen is, as these machines start working, we should also start getting some materials business. Of course, that's a lower margin, but it will stabilize that situation as and when we get more and more machines installed. We're expecting better results, definitely than last year. On a cash flow basis, we might continue investing in that business, most likely our call. There are a lot of things that we still need to build out of there. Got it. Sir, just a final another question. Madhur, may I request you to join the we'll take the next question from Shaket Kapoor. Please go ahead. Yeah. Namaskar, sir. Thank you for the opportunity. Namaste, Sapit ji. Namaskar. Sir, when you mentioned that the burn rate will be closer to this INR 20-INR 25 crore, what should be the revenue quantum that we can expect from? I think this year, there has not been a major change. It is, I think, the employee cost and the other overhead costs that are hitting the bottom line. If you could just give us some color how that performance is going to be. Firstly, sir. One second, Shaket. You just hold on to this question. Now, the second question, just wait for two minutes. If you can repeat this question because it was not clear to me something about the overheads and the operational expenses. Are you talking for the standalone business or the consolidated business? Only for the console part, sir. Console part, sir, how revenue generation is current year? You are telling that we can curtail the losses or curtail the burn rate to INR 20 crore. What would be the revenue pie looking like for the console business? No, no. I think that we are maybe going to slightly increase the expenses in terms of employee expenses on a consolidated basis. We expect the revenue growth to kick in to some extent. Obviously, the margin on that revenue should be good. That should help curtail the consolidated losses. Sir, secondly, to the Track and Trace solution part of the story, sir. Just to get the first thing, we're not really trying to reduce the amount of people and cost further from what we have right now. We're not trying to increase it massively. It might increase by two, three people here and there, but not overall. Like I said, what we are looking at is to grow the revenues. That's what we're expecting to see this year on a consolidated basis. Correct, sir. Sir, the Track and Trace solution part of the story is totally domestic. That is, we are catering to the coding business where it's an addition to what we are doing in terms of the consumable supply. Is that understanding correct for the Track and Trace solution business? It is a total. I wouldn't say it's part of our coding business. It's definitely a separate division or vertical for us. It's viewed differently by the customers because for them, software expertise, integration expertise, printing expertise, and vision system expertise, all four are equally critical for them. It's a compliance-based business. To understand the entire compliance angle, especially in pharmaceutical, is quite important for them. I wouldn't say I think that the fact that we have mastery of the printing element is a good selling point, but it's not a necessary point. I don't think people are interested in taking the solutions from Domino, Videojet, Markem, or Control Print if we didn't have a strong—if the overall package is not strong. To understand, what we are giving in terms of the printing is definitely one part of that solution. It is not a sufficient aspect for the customer to think. It is not a part of the coding and marking business. It is a separate business. It is not a part of the package to the customers who we are supplying the printers and the consumables. No, no, definitely not. There's a lot of elements to that specific type of installation. So it's way too complicated for most customers to look at. Sir, here, the market size is INR 400 crore. That is the total target market. INR 400 crores-INR 500 crore. Most of it is, of course, some part of it is equipment. Then some part of it is now a lot of people have an installed base. They also have a certain number of AMCs and software charges coming from the number of lines they've installed. This is our estimation of what the business size is. Correct, sir. Now, coming to the. It's more than INR 400 crore, but it could be bigger than that also because we don't have the exact disclosed figures from our competitors, especially not for the Indian market only. Just to conclude for the Track and Trace part, so taking into account the groundwork that we have done and taking into the ballpark number to say INR 400 crore, INR 500 crore, what are we eyeing, sir, in terms of a market share, in terms of top line in, say, two to three years down the line? Where do we think we will be placed? Our company will be placed in this segment? Like I said, there are four major players. On a technology basis, there are even other secondary players, but I would not say they have good sales. I would not say that their technology platform is the same. Like I said, ACG, Associated Capsules Group, which is a well-known company in India and a very good company, is the biggest player in this business, then Jekson Vision, OPTEL, and PharmaSecure. The four of them are four good competitors. Like I said, we need to prove technological superiority in our solution with additional benefits to the customers versus these four. That is what our focus has been in the previous year. For that, we have also had to do certain more development work, certain other types of things to make sure that our solution has sufficient benefit. Because you have to understand that today, I'm just giving you an idea. Of course, just like a name. But suppose say Dr. Reddy's or Cipla has machines from a supplier. He's not going to change a compliance-based thing for a saving of 20% on the equipment normally or 25%. There's going to be something bigger as a delta for him to move and evaluate a new supplier and then integrate that new supplier into his line and his systems because everything is connected to his ERP, his software, and his compliance also. For us, it's more about creating that sort of delta in terms of giving the customers that we are targeting a much superior solution and sort of taking them away from compliance into different areas where we can serve their requirements. I think last year was a proving and an understanding of what we can do and also certain developments that we had to do in the last year and a half to actually make our solution better. We're still doing certain developments. Now I think we've got certain areas or certain platforms which we can definitely scale up and which have a clear edge compared to the four major other competitors in this business. Right. One more question. It is difficult to see two, three years down the line because we believe we have got something superior. We are working with some customers. We need to install it, prove it. If people are getting a sort of strong ROI and they see that visibility, then people will definitely pick it up in a strong way going forward. If they do not see that, then yeah, we still have a good solution, but then we are just like another supplier and we will still do okay. It is not going to be a fun business. Yes, sir. I got your point, sir. For the packaging, the V-Shape part of the story also, sir, if you could just throw some more light, what kind of target market? Hello? Yeah, I'm here. Yeah, yeah. Sorry. Sir, I was looking for the feedback from the V-Shape packaging part also. What are we eyeing in terms of the current market? In this, sir, in the supply chain, what are the key raw materials and how are we aligning the raw material supply chain for the sale? Yeah. In the packaging business, we are still working on stabilizing that. I had said we needed a two-year plan to help stabilize that business. I think in the Track and Trace, definitely, we should see that we are coming to that level of maturity and this thing. In the V-Shapes business, definitely, we have got some good solutions. We are continuing to develop the platform, and we have got our newer products that we have developed in the meantime. Now, as far as single-dose packaging goes or mono-dose, there is a huge market for it. This is a much, much bigger market than the coding and marking business that we are in. What we have got also is a highly premium product and it is differentiated. Now, the question is whether we can—it is also more expensive. It depends on the customers who want a premium package. For them, it's a benefit that might be there. But the INR 2 or the INR 5 ketchup and shampoo is not really going to probably benefit from what we are offering. Right now, what we're doing is we're just trying to create more of a market. I think the basic knowledge and awareness of our product is extremely low. I don't know. I don't remember now. I studied those four P's of marketing and all that very long ago. The thing is, right now, we just need to reach out to a lot more people. We need more marketing presence in terms of helping that create our growth. The awareness needs to increase. Most customers are just not even aware that there is a solution like this. Those customers who are aware might think it might not be aware that it's a serious industrial solution that can operate at high speeds and high volumes and can compete directly with single-use packaging of stuff like thermoform or tubes or glass bottles or, of course, sachets and stuff like that. Right now, in terms of the marketing, we've got some salespeople in place. We've got certain other things in the marketing that we're working on at a ground level in terms of just websites, SEO, other types of things that we need to increase upon like our own presentations and so on. We have to target very focused markets. Because the cost point is higher, we're targeting more things like nutraceuticals, honey, stuff where it's not a very cheap product. People can afford to spend slightly more on the packaging if it's premium and it's giving them that type of visibility, like maybe cosmetics, serums, things like that, moisturizers rather than standard, the INR 2 shampoo. There is a market. Definitely, we have had a few sales as they get installed and we see more products coming to the market. I'm hoping that that itself will create more awareness. The main thing I think is to sell more will help us sell more. The initial part is always the more difficult aspect. Each stage in the beginning is a lot more effort. What we can do and we're working on is to try to see if for some reason our lead times and other things always seem to be a bottleneck and we need to reduce that. From the time we get an order to the time we customize a machine for those specific products to the time it is delivered and installed, that time is reduced. The faster the end product comes out on the market, the more the awareness of our package will be. These machines are manufactured sort of similar to our printers. They are much bigger. There is a lot more mechanical aspects to them whereas we use more hydraulics. There is a lot of stuff going on in there. It is a pretty sophisticated type of a machine. Parts are purchased. Some are machined. Some are, they are saying, a lot of them are custom-made. A lot of electronics is purchased from standard guys like Fanuc and Siemens and those types of people, drives, and so on. There is a bunch of stuff. Some of it is there. The programming is what makes it work in the specific way that we require. There are not that many custom suppliers that we rely upon. As far as the materials go, that is still something that we are working on. That has also been a bottleneck for us. Our core material has got an aluminum layer in it for a perfect barrier. We are trying to work very aggressively to come with a sort of recyclable material. We have done pilot projects on that, and it is working well, it seems. If that is the case, then we need to try to scale it up. Definitely, one of the big issues in this business is that suppose for a 10-ml packet, if the cost of the packaging is INR 2 and we can reduce it to INR 1, which is our longer-term target, then the addressable market can increase quite significantly. The other thing we need to do is go from a non-recyclable to a recyclable package. Those are the two aims in terms of the materials specifically. We are doing other developments in the longer term also for biodegradable and other types of things for other things. This is the immediate target in this year. Thank you, sir. Yes, sir. I'll join the queue, sir, for the core business question. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Shaket. We'll take the next question from Manan Shah. Please go ahead. Yeah, hi. Thanks for the opportunity. My first question was for the Track and Trace and the QRiousCodes of the business. I believe one of the problems that we solve through this business is counterfeits. There is a big luxury market which faces this problem. You spoke on the pharma side for this business, but what are your thoughts on exploring or are we exploring or do we have a solution for this part of the business where there is already a problem for which we have a solution? Manan, what we are doing is one of the things I discussed in terms of a differentiated technology platform. What we're targeting very aggressively is one of the things is the anti-counterfeiting platform and also the supply chain management at a different level. We want to give those additional options to our customers along with, of course, meeting all the compliance requirements from L1 to L5. That's not an issue. In terms of, to be honest, the only market we've really explored is the pharmaceutical market. The only other markets that we're exploring are where Control Print itself is operating. We are also telling some of our customers in other businesses like plywood or cable and wire that we do have such a solution. Price points are very different. Expected amounts people are willing to pay in pharmaceuticals are very different than what it is in other types of businesses and customers. Right now, to be honest with you, I'll say like 90% + of the effort is in the pharmaceutical business. It could be that we can explore other areas. I think definitely luxury cosmetics, luxury goods in general could be an area. As of right now, because pharmaceutical is regulated, they have to do it, and they are looking for solutions. Considering the amount of bandwidth we have, we've not been focusing on creating new categories right now. Okay. Understood. My next question was on the V-Shapes business. I believe our capacity over there is approximately 40 units per annum. If you can highlight how many units have we sold last year and at what sort of sale do we break even? I mean, to understand what are the levers to break even? Is it primarily the sales that will help us break even, or are there other levers to the business which can help us break even over there? Yeah. In terms of the capacity of what we do in V-Shapes, it really depends on the types of machines we are selling. It could be as few as 15 all the way up to 40. It depends on whether it is a standard twin, what we call the Prime Duo or the Nexo machine right now, or is it something more customized? If there is a pharmaceutical machine, then everything has to be purchased individually from the beginning. The whole process becomes significantly longer. To answer your specific question in terms of the sales, we sold three machines last year, out of which none were installed last year because of some delays in supplies from our side and so on. Because we just needed to get some things, it literally took us six months to get things stabilized before we could really start focusing on sales on the other side. We sold most of the machines towards the back end of last year. I cannot tell you what is happening in this year, of course, and I will keep you updated as and when we do more things. We sold three. I think at about, I cannot say. I mean, I do not know. Jaideep and me have done a calculation. It also depends on what sort of mix of models our machines are sold and then also how many machines are running and the materials with. I think we have about, Jaideep, I mean, I think we did a calculation. I think we have like 60 or 70 machines, maybe less or more. I think something like that of the twin prime, the smaller machines, we have like 60 machines or 70 machines of them. I think we should be break even on the material business. Obviously, what we sell on the machines will be an additional revenue and an additional margin. It is a combination business. We do make more money on the machines than we make on the materials. The materials is something that will be used year by year. The margins and the volume margin is higher on the machine upfront. The material would be like a consistent, I mean, over the next eight, 10, 12, 15 years for this machine life. That would be more of a consistent volume that we could get from that. So you were saying, just to summarize that, we break even around 60 units-70 units, right? I'm saying of the small type of machine, what happens last year, we sold two big machines. One big machine is about, say, gives you about two and a half to three times the usage of the small machine. What I'm trying to say is it really depends on where we are selling again and what the thing is. I'm trying to standardize everything. I'm talking about the 2-track machine, but we sold like two 8-track machines and one 2-track machine. The 8-track machine normally gives you at least about two and a half times to three times the amount of business as the small machine. It's only bought by customers who have products which are running continuously. In a way, that you could also consider it equal to selling six small machines because one machine you sold and the two big machines would be worth like accordingly five small machines. It is a combination. As and when we get a better idea of the breakup of the bigger machines and the smaller machines, we can keep you posted on that. We also provide co-packing services under this segment. Any success on that side, or? Yeah. So we have some customers that we are doing it, including, I think, some people see it like Bombay Shaving, of course. I'm only saying this name because he himself has put it on his own X and Twitter and other handles that we're going to disclose a customer. I think Bombay Shaving is supplying it to Taj and some other hotels. That is also something we're looking at keenly because that will get more awareness for this. In general, I'll be very honest, we are not very fond of co-packing services. It's something that we're just doing because we have to give samples and do certain things for the customer. That's why I think somebody asked for something about the work in progress. I remember. The reason we created some additional space in Nalagarh is so that we can have a licensed facility to pack foods and cosmetics in, so that we can just do this co-packaging, but that's separate from our main coding and marking factory. Yeah, it's something we do, but it's more from the view of that it's sampling, it's other things. Now, if you keep coming to me month after month, I'll be like, "You got to buy your own machine and make your own arrangements." It's definitely part of what we have to do to help popularize the product, but it's not really our main focus because we're not a contract manufacturer, so to say. It's part of it, but we need to do it to help popularize the product. Got it. Understood. Thanks. I'll get back in the queue. Thank you, Manan. We'll take the next question from Bhargav Buddhadev. Please go ahead. Yeah. Good afternoon, sir. And congrats on the good performance. My first question is on our standalone business. If I look at the printer installed base as on FY 2020, it was about 12,000. Now we are closing in at 21,000. We have had a consistent 10%-11% CAGR in terms of the printer base. If I look at the gross margins in the standalone business, we have seen sort of some pressure on the gross margins. If we look at raw material cost as a percentage of revenue, in 2020, it was about 27%, and now it is about 42%. How should we look at gross margins? Are we facing some competitive pressure, which is resulting in this gross margin being under pressure? Like I said, in general, we do not change our margins at all. What happens is our product selling prices and our margins are about fixed. Now, what happened last year, I do think the rupee depreciated against the dollar. Two, three of our things that we buy from Taiwan and one or two other countries besides the U.S. itself are linked to the dollar. There might have been some slight cost increases. I think the rupee was a little bit down last year. We will take countermeasures this year in terms of some price increases and certain other things. Yeah. Normally what happens is we meet once a year or twice a year as a set of managers. When we meet, then only we go ahead with certain other types of strategic decisions like price increase and stuff. We normally maintain our margins throughout, and it's about close to 60%. What happens is sometimes there's a different set of product mixes. Continuous Inkjet Printers have the highest margins, and also our Piezo printers. Some of the other printers have lower gross margins, but then they require less cost in terms of selling and servicing them. When we really look at it on a net basis, there's not that much difference. On a gross basis, there may be some variations of the same. It could be that the product mixes change. I need to look at this very closely, what you're talking about. In general, for every individual product line, we don't reduce our margins, our gross margins, or we don't increase them either. We keep them as it is. If there's a major change, it will be because of product mix. Sometimes there's some temporary change. Again, I don't know. 2020, is that the COVID year also you're talking about specifically? Yeah. I mean, just three months of COVID. So not like. I'm not, again, very sure what happened in that year. I'll have to look at a little longer trend line. In general, about 60% overall gross margin is what the company targets. We are normally somewhere close to that. I mean, Jaideep, you're here. Just going to give some better idea on this. Yeah. So for the cost of goods sold, I mean, for the last since 2022, we are remaining constant at 41%, 40%. So this year also, we are just about 40% for 2024, 2025. It's similar to the line of last year and the year before last. That kind of consistency we are maintaining. Again, as Shiva has rightly put up, it also depends on the product mix. I mean, the higher the number of consumables if we sell, obviously, the profitability is going to be higher. The product mix in terms of the line of printers, different printers have different margins, gross margins to them, although the net works out similar. Secondly, do we share what is the revenue run rate in the Track and Trace business? Because I see about INR 20, INR 22 crore is the burn which we are doing in the subsidiaries. If we are not sharing that number, just wanted to know what's the guidance on this burn rate. Will we see reduction, or will it stay around these levels for the next two years? Bhargav, the Track and Trace division is part of Control Print stand-alone. So you'll not see it in any subsidiary. The subsidiary that you're talking about, is that ICIPL? Can you just repeat which subsidiary you're seeing in there? He's talking about the V-Shapes thing, about the burn rate of INR 20 crores, he's saying. Yeah, yeah. So that's in the packaging business. That has nothing to do with the Track and Trace business. The Track and Trace losses were part of Control Print standalone. Is it possible to highlight what is the loss in the Track and Trace business? Do you share that, or don't share it? No, we don't give divisional performance. It's part of our internal MIS. So divisional performance, we don't give. Revenue run rate, the monthly run rate or yearly run rate, do we have some idea or? Bhargav, at the moment, we are not mandated to give a segment-wise analysis at the moment. When the time comes, we'll definitely give in our financial statements. Sure, sure. This burn rate, is there a possibility of reduction, or are we stay at about INR 20, INR 22 gross? V-Shapes? If I just agreed to answer that, I think that as the revenues increase this year, we would expect that we should reduce that operational loss significantly. We do not know exactly where we are going to end up. It is just like I think it is like May end or something. As we know, in the next 10 months, I think we should, like I said, even what we sold last year will definitely help contribute this year because it is just, I mean, out of three machines, one just literally started a month, month and a half ago, and one is under installation. One is going to be installed in another month from now. Some things that we need to improve here. Obviously, as we sell more machines, that will give us some more revenue. That will also give us a more consistent aftermarket business of the materials, which will be a consistent earning. Yeah, I think we are expecting, in general, we have got the cost platform that we need largely, like I said, across all our subsidiaries, including CP Italy. We might add one or two people just more on the sales or marketing side. We do not need anyone anywhere else across Markprint, Codeology, CP Italy, or elsewhere. Even in the Track and Trace, we might just add one or two more sales guys if we feel that we get the right type of fit. We have got some people. We might add that one or two people to help just give us that extra thrust if we feel we get that right type of person. Other than that, we're not going to see any major cost increases unless there's some unforeseen issues that happen. In that case, as we sell more, we should get some more operational leverage, and the SG&A will be spread over a bigger revenue base. The gross margins would really flow into reducing the losses. Awesome. Thank you very much, and all the very best. Thank you, Bhargav. We'll take the next question from Gaurav. Gaurav, please go ahead. Yeah. Hi. Can you hear me? Gaurav, can you be a little louder, please? Sorry. Is this better? Yes, it is better. Please go ahead. Okay. Thanks. Hi. Sorry. Just have three relatively basic questions, slightly new to the business. Do you all share, or maybe could you give us an indicative sense of gross margin, let's say, across different verticals, whether it's consumables or printers? The reason I'm asking this is going back to Bhargav's question. Let's say in FY 2018, 2019, gross margins were almost north of 65% with the lower consumables mix. Today, that's a lot lower with the higher consumables mix. Just trying to understand how do we think about gross margins, let's say, on a three, five-year basis. Like I said, I think overall, we were talking about 60% overall. There was a certain period, which again, I'm not sure which year you're referring to, where from Guwahati, we were getting certain additional benefits from manufacturing out there. That boosted our gross margins because we were getting certain tax benefits that we used to accumulate straight to the bottom line or pad our gross margin up further. We still get some, but then the amount reduced quite sharply at 2018, 2019, or something like that. We got some benefit for a couple of years, and then it reduced. That could have been a change. Again, I will say that at a certain point of time, CIG was like 85% of our business. Valvejet was, I'll say until about five years ago, LCP, Valvejet and CIG was probably like 90% of our business. As a result, the margins were high because we were more for, even though we had theoretically six or seven products, we never actually really focused on selling the Thermal Transfer or the Thermal Inkjet or even the Piezo for that matter, whereas now they're forming a significant part of our growth. Those issues could be there. Like I said, in every individual product line, we don't change the margins. If there are certain cost increases or certain other types of things that happen, we normally also would increase the prices in proportion. In general, our overall target we expect from the mix of products that we are selling should be about 60%. Like I said, different product groups have different margins. On an overall basis, like I said, certain product groups also have lower operational costs. So on a net basis, we think that everything would be the same. Got it. Just a second question was on the consumables component, like let's say ink, or any example you want to take over there, just trying to understand how pricing has moved. Let's say on a per cartridge or a per liter basis, just given that the business is very sticky, is this a segment where you can take, let's say, 5%-7% annual price hikes? Just trying to understand how pricing is, how pricing moves in that segment. Some of our competitors have been a bit more aggressive in terms of increasing prices than us. I think I've disclosed that in the past. There's now, I'd say, more of a pricing gap, a little bit of a pricing gap between our three competitors and us. So far, we've not taken a very aggressive stance on that because we are getting a fair volume growth. Like I said, last year, the Rupee depreciated. This year, we're probably looking at some sort of a price increase. In general, it's been more for us, genuinely, if you feel the costs have increased, that's when we've gone for a price increase. We've not really used it as a revenue lever. It's something we need to discuss internally, whether we need to do that. You're right. The product is sort of inelastic or sticky, but it's not being used so far by us. It's something we need to discuss deeply inside, I think, as a strategy if this is a method we want to go down on. Fair enough. I mean. If there are cost increases, we normally pass them on with a little bit of a lag. Sometimes you might see the margin dropping 1%,1.5%, and then it comes back. It's because sometimes, like in the COVID time, there was a lot of certain cost increases. This thing, I think, because the rupee depreciated a little bit unexpectedly compared to what we expected, prices increased a little bit. Then we recaptured that by some price increases. It's more like in line. It's not a fundamental way of increasing our margins and revenue, but it's more to capture a justified cost increase on our side. Got it. I mean, it's fair to imply from that that there is a fair pricing umbrella that you all can still work towards in terms of working upwards versus where your direct peers are. Compared to them, yes. Compared to them. Okay. Got it. Just my last question. Again, partly because I'm approaching this with less context, but it seems like there are a few businesses which are in an investment phase, like V-Shapes and, let's say, Track and Trace over the next few years, next one or two years. There is the core marking and coding business, which is quite stable. You mentioned that you'll probably give this investment phase maybe one to two years more and then sort of decide as to where we go from there. Let's say if we were three to four years out from now, right, and you've decided to keep some business, some businesses, invest in others, etc., how should the business look? What is the bare minimum in terms of how do you think the business should look in terms of size and margins once you've made those decisions and where, let's say, a few years out from now? Thanks. I mean, a few years out from now is very difficult to predict. Like I said, in the core Track and Trace business, I mean, or the core coding and marking business, we've got a history of what that business is like. We know that the industry is going to grow at about 9%, 10%, 11%, stick to 10%. We believe we've got a slightly better product mix, so we should do 10%, maybe a bit more. We've done that over the last two, three, four years or something like that. Hopefully, we can continue that. I think it's not only that we've gotten more digital printing things. We've integrated some of the Markprint products, some of their technology in India, certain other types of things that we've done. We are also advancing on that front. We've done a lot of innovation in the high-res. We have some three key patents in the Thermal Inkjet. And we've come out with a new product, which is not going to be successful because the ink development is still not complete. But we would have a leading-edge product if we did have the ink developed in time. So we're working on we're definitely doing our investment in the coding and marking business on the core side. But these are R&D expenses that we were taking anyways, and we're just continuing them. So we're still trying to maintain our competitiveness in that business and try to grow a bit faster. As far as the other businesses, like I said, go, I think we're working on a platform of technological superiority. And that's what we want to establish, both in the Track and Trace. We are also a premium player compared to the other players that I mentioned. What we need to do is we need to offer a sufficient delta, offer at least 30%+ in terms of value to the end customer for him to consider changing platforms from what he is using right now to us. In terms of the packaging business, again, like I said, right now, the market awareness of this product is very low. Obviously, it was fundamentally my decision to look at this thing and invest in it. I think that there is a massive scope in it. Like I said, we are still in the early stages, and we are struggling, and we are working to make things run smoothly. My focus or what Control Print is bringing, of course, we have got some differentiated technology. We have got some other stuff. Especially in the packaging business, what we feel is we know how to make a business run smoothly and scale it up consistently, especially if it's a technology-based business. That is sort of the type of management that we want to, and that type of process-driven skill that we want to bring in into that packaging business. In the end, these are markets that are slightly different than what we've, or which I've been working in personally or even some of the other people. It is very difficult for us to give a view from three, four, five years out. I think in the coding and marking business, we're quite confident that things should work smoothly. Like I said, in other things, we're still building out. Honestly, even if we are successful in building out, that just means we've got to continue reinvesting and building out because right now, even in the packaging business, the only place we are targeting is some part of half of Europe and India. We've not even got our marketing act together outside of that, whereas as we've changed the global business. Even in the Track and Trace business, the idea would be if we can prove it in India, we can again take that solution elsewhere to certain other geographies and see whether we can exploit that. If we're not able to do it here, where customers know us and they give us a better reception, then it's going to be difficult for us to do it elsewhere. Thank you so much. Thank you, Gaurav. Thank you, Gaurav. Sir, since we are running short of time, we will take the last question from the line of Deven Kulkarni. Please go ahead. Yeah. Hi, can you hear me? Yes, please. Yeah. So can you share the split of printer revenue, consumable revenue for this quarter? For this quarter, the breakup between printers, consumables, spares, and service is 14%, 58%, 11%, 16%. Okay. Thank you. How many printers did we sell in this quarter? 836 printers. Okay. Got it. Last year, this number was 630 printers, right? Number of printers sold in the Q4 of FY 2024, yeah? It was actually more. It was 868 printers. Okay. Okay. Fine. Thank you, Deven. Since that was the last question, I would request the management to give their closing comments, please. Thank you, everybody, for joining on the call. Shiva, would you like to give? Yeah, absolutely. I think thanks, everyone. A lot of great questions. A bit surprising because I think more questions on the Track and Trace and the QRiousCodes business and the Packaging business than the core coding business. I think if there are certain things that people would want us to put up, I think we'll try to add those additional details. We have a pretty extensive ERP, so we get a lot of data. If people need some specific question that we feel is not compromising our secrecy or our competitiveness, then we are glad to share that. Thanks, everyone, for joining. I really appreciate your time during the working hours and best wishes. Thank you, everybody. Yeah, thanks. Thank you to the management, and thank you to all the participants for joining this conference call. You may all disconnect now. Thank you.