Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for standing by. This is Lizanne, the moderator for your conference call. Welcome to the post-results conference call of AIA Engineering Limited. We have with us today the management team of AIA Engineering Limited. At this moment, all participants are in the listen-only mode. Later, we will conduct a question-and-answer session. At that time, if you have a question, you may please press star and one. I would now like to turn the conference over to AIA Engineering management team. Thank you, and over to you, sir. Yes, thank you so much. Very warm welcome to everyone. We are happy to report end of this year, fiscal year 2022, 2023. The numbers for this years are very, very encouraging. You know, we've seen growth after last few years of stall on account of various reasons. We've ended the fourth quarter with sales of 73,500 tons, on a production of 74,674 tons, translating into sales of INR 1,251 crores. EBITDA line item of INR 379 crores. Profit After Tax of INR 268 crores. Also, I'll just, you know, talk about the highlights for the year. We've done 291,000 tons for the full year. That's up from 260,000 tons full year last year, with a top line of INR 4,800 crores compared to INR 3,500 crores for full year last year. EBITDA of INR 1,475 crores, up from INR 877 crores, and profit after tax of INR 1,055 crores, up from INR 619 crores. Couple of highlights, you know, for this year. This year has been, you know, the first full year after the COVID interruptions and, you know, the, the setback that we got for duties, shipping costs going up, et cetera. We feel that we are back into that growth mode. In this quarter, you know, there's a reduction in other income related to Forex, and that's largely, you know, on account of the changes in currency that we saw over the end, at the end of March. Of course, the Indian rupee has since recovered, and some of that will get reversed. When I compare sequentially Q3 to Q4, there is about a 5% reduction at EBITDA level in currency terms, and there's another 5% on account of, your cost of goods sold. That largely reflects, you know, change in product mix. There's also, price pass-through, which is a, which is adjustment on the lower side. We also had, you know, actually, raw material go up this quarter, from the previous quarter. While the selling price was, you know, reflecting the lower raw material price previous quarter and hence a lower selling price, but my cost on the other side has gone up a little bit. On that account, you know, there's a 10%, you know, almost a 10% sequential reduction in EBITDA. That's in line with our commentary last quarter, that this is a supernormal margin. There's a pass-through both ways. There is, there will be a pass-through, you know, when raw material prices go down. That's reflected in this quarter's numbers. Of course, the raw material prices have since gone up, you know, last quarter. We are seeing a little higher raw material price this quarter as well. That's a constant situation, so we don't spend time estimating the future, imagining the future and where it could be. Thankfully, our business model allows us that full pass-through, so it'll be where that numbers ultimately end up at rate. Some key other numbers are export benefits are a little higher than the first three quarters because, you know, there's a 1% RoDTEP, remission of duties and taxes on export, you know, that has started on grinding media. There's a little bit of increase on that account. It's at INR 21.75 crores, compared to INR 16.90 crores on the sequential third quarter. Our treasury income is at INR 48 crores compared to INR 42 crores, largely in line with our cash. We are at about 2,550 crores of net cash, and the treasury, you know, reflects that. The main change is in the foreign exchange, which gain, which was at INR 75 crores approximately in the third quarter. That's reduced to about INR 15 crores. INR 60 crore sitting in that account, and I think some part of that will get reversed as we go forward because the weakening rupee. Again, that's a change that will keep happening on an ongoing basis. I think our working capital is largely in line, receivable at 63 days, comparable to the third quarter. WIP and raw material, again, a number of days term is largely flat. Our growth, our 73,000 tons, you know, half, three-fourths of that, about 48,000 tons came from mining, and 25 is non-mining, which is cement and thermal power and quarry, you know, the three industries that we service. So for the full year, we are about 192 in mining versus 170 in the full year last year. Non-mining has grown from about 90,000 tons to 98,000 tons. And that's the breakup for the growth of that 30,000 tons. A few other key numbers, if I were to reflect on, we are as a business, we are doing some restructuring of our plants, our manufacturing footprint as far as our non-grinding media is concerned. There's, there's some amount of automation, upgrade, debottlenecking, creating some warehouses, you know, et cetera, to allow for some, you know, improvements in operations. We have overall earmarked 200 crores, you know, towards that reorganization, you know, which is land for that reorg. Warehouses, we need to build some extra storage spaces, some decongestion, automation, you know. We are doing some extra molding lines, which will not enhance capacity, just increases our ability to do some type of parts. All of that put together is about 200 crores. As a result, there'll be operational and productive outcomes, but there'll also be about 20,000 tons of non-grinding media capacity that we will see an increased with, and it should take about, you know, 4 to 6 months for some of that to come through. I think we expect between October and December, that additional 20,000 tons of capacity, non-grinding media capacity to come up. Over and above that INR 200 crore, we are already working on grinding media project, which is the 80,000 ton enhancement. That project, you know, from where we stand, some delays in that execution on the design, procurement, et cetera, will take up to end of 2024 to get implemented. There's about INR 150 crore CapEx on that account. We are at INR 350 crore total CapEx, both these line items, and about a INR 50 crore renewable energy investment, you know, that we are looking to do. After that investment, after that INR 50 crore renewable, on this year's power consumption, almost 40% of our power will then come from captive and renewable sources, you know? This is largely constrained by the regulatory aspect within, you know, the state that we operate, I think. We were at 18% or 20% the year before. This year, we are at about 23%, 25%, 27%, and we'll go up to 40%-42%, you know, going forward on current year production. As we grow, production and consume more, you know, and have more connected load, probably we can add more captive renewable sources and take it from there. About a total INR 400 crore broad CapEx, you know, the grinding media CapEx will be between this year and next, you know, let's say half an hour. The debottleneck for our non-cast, non-grinding media, and the wind will be surely, you know, some part of it may be next year, but wind is surely this year, the other part. As of now, this is the total CapEx, you know, spread between this year and next, about INR 400 crores. Besides that, we are happy to announce that the board has today declared a dividend of INR 16 a share, and that'll roughly be about INR 150 crores of outflow for the company. That's what we're happy to report. Our order book is at about INR 770 crores, you know, as we explained, that these are orders, not reflecting our contractual commitments underlying those orders. From a business standpoint, you know, multiple efforts and which we have all kept talking about in the past, where we are doing interventions with the customer in terms of our mill lining abilities, mill liners, and the whole proposition that we have, you know, on that side. We continue to focus on the chrome benefits, you know, as far as the down process, the benefits are concerned for gold and copper, continue to reinforce, you know, with existing customers and adjacent customers in those geographies. I think with that said, we look to be comfortably placed to grow at a 30,000-plus rate as of now, and continue with a guidance of 20%-22% in operating margin, and more, if we can, but that's the model going forward. Our realization per kilo is at INR 170, which is comparable to what it was last quarter, and it reflects the a product mix change also. I think there's little more of castings this quarter versus grinding media, otherwise, given the price pass-through, this would have been 3-4% lower. That's the only thing that I would remark about. I'll have Sanjay Majmudar, you know, share his opening thoughts, and we can get to. Yeah. Good evening to all participants. Thanks, Kunal. Just a couple of very quick observations from my side. So one, of course, with this year-end and quarter mile marks a milestone for AIA, in the sense that we have crossed the total income has crossed INR 5,000 crores, with INR 5,143 crores being the total income reported. The profit also has simultaneously crossed the important benchmark of INR 1,000 crores, with our PAT after minority interest reporting at INR 1,055 crores. Couple of very quick observations. If you see in the last call, we were very candidly clear that this 39% should not be read as something which is constant, and we've been sort of vindicated in the sense that that one of INR 75 odd crore of FX gain has significantly reduced, plus the effect of the pass-through on the negative side, has come in this quarter, which has resulted into the operating EBITDA becoming in a more realistic range of about 30 odd%. On an entire year basis, it is about 24%-25%, which is also.. ... reflecting what we have been saying. As we know, quarter-over-quarter amendments and adjustments are not something that we look at, but it is more on an annual basis, and that is what we were actually quite clear about. Second point, in our presentation, we are talking of a CapEx of INR 200, but actually the total debt INR 200 is only with respect to ongoing brownfield expansion, plus the wind part. The real actual picture is what has Kunal said, INR 400 crores. We'll also make some adjustments and amendments, because it's little bit in a hurry, we will be again uploading it. This is just for the benefit of all, broadly, that the current year, broadly, CapEx is INR 400. Bulk of it are close to 300 coming this year, and it's about 50-100 going next year. This is a broad. Lastly, all our growth drivers are very much intact. The business opportunity is absolutely the same. Tremendous efforts all over the key markets are being on with the total focus on mining, conversion from forged to high chrome, that being our mainstay. Lot of new business directions are also being added through mill liner efforts. All in all, the story remains the same. We are all remaining equally committed and excited, and I think going forward, we should be able to see how the things unfold. I think with this, I request the moderator to open the house for Q&A. Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, we will now begin the question and answer session. If you have a question, please press star and one on your touch tone telephone, and await your turn to ask your question when guided by the facilitator. If your questions have been answered before your turn and you wish to withdraw your request, you may do so by pressing star and two key. You are requested to use handsets while asking a question. The first question is on the line of Ashutosh Tiwari from Equirus Securities. Please go ahead. Yeah, hi, Kunal. Congratulations to the members. Firstly, on the realization part, you mentioned that obviously this quarter is a bit higher due to this mix change with castings being higher. That number, say 3-4% lower than this, will that sustain going ahead or there's some pass-through of freight or RM or anything remaining? What are you saying? Whether this 170 will sustain. Well, you said INR 170 is maybe 3%, 4% higher than normal, and because castings and all. If you remove, like, say, then INR 160 plus is sustainable number going ahead in terms of realizations per ton, per KG? Hello? Hello? members of management team, we are not able to hear you. Hello? Ladies and gentlemen, we seem to have lost the audio from the management's line. Please stay connected while we try to regain the audio. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for patiently holding. We now have the line for the speaker reconnected. Over to you, sir. Yes. Is Ashutosh also on the line? Yeah, yeah, I'm there. Yeah. Ashutosh, 170 as current raw material should hold. It's a product mix issue, to that extent, it can change. Maybe as of current raw material and current situation, you know, between 160 and 170 is where it should stay. I mean, there are too many variables for us to answer, give an objective answer, no? Yeah, I got it, got it. The freight cost, everything is now fully passed on. There's no. On that, there's nothing remaining as such. No, no, it's fully passed on to the customer, and it's reducing. There is some amount of pass-through that will happen. It will happen in next quarter. Yeah. Yeah, it is an ongoing process. The margins are probably settling at higher level than what probably is a longer term thing. Maybe because, is it because in South Africa, was lower margin, then that's why? Is that the reason why margin is probably settling at higher level? I don't think there are plenty variables, no, Ashutosh, for us to say one thing like that. Your question was freight. There's some amount of pass-through to the customer that will still happen over. That's an ongoing process, like Sanjay Majmudar said. I mean, these are costs, and we'll. Our ability is there to pass through, you know, and then that will be that's all I think we can help you with just now on it. Okay, got it. Secondly, you mentioned this 20,000 tons of non-wearing capacity. This is liner or castings? Castings. We have the whole Odowa cluster, no, where we do. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. That. That is mainly for cement, right? No, no. Castings. We have mill lining, we're doing vertical mills, we're doing, you know. ... thermal power stuff over there. Quarry. The quarry, you know, and it's integrated with our new plant also, right? We are doing some parts, some work with the new plant also, where the flexibility of the parts, see the parts we can make, you know, require some amount of equipment, and sometimes you have to invest. Your headline capacity is there at 50, right? Your ability to produce what is also, we are doing, you know, right from 50 kilos to 20 tons, and it's not always possible to estimate. You know, we take a certain amount of estimate to say, "Let's start with this equipment." Just now, based on what we are foresee for a non-casting, there will be some amount of investment just to widen our product portfolio within, you know, the sizes of castings, you know, that we are handling right now. Of course, and these are older plants. We need to bring in automation. We need to de-congest, right? We are retooling them for next 10 years, basically. Okay, okay. Got it. Liner, how was the volume this year? Liner volume was about 26,000, 25,000, 26,000 tons. Okay, this should grow to around 35,000 plus next year, like 2024? We'll do 10,000 each year. I mean, 25 should be closer to 35 next year, at least, you know? I'm talking of mining liners. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Okay, and in terms of, let's say, demand outlook, is there any change or demand remains strong? Which metals right now are doing better for you in terms of growth, cost-... I think our theme is business as usual, because there is zero underlying business economic trend that affects our business. Gold and copper and cement are the commodities that will end iron. They'll continue to be produced and used, you know, with a small variation here and there. Their end price may change to market sentiment, economic, et cetera, but, I don't think. It's the same. Yeah. We continue to do the boring job. We have to go to the customer, do all of that, right? We are replacing, we're converting from an incumbent to us. That's the journey that we have to do. Generally unaffected by global factors. Higher shipping price and all of those things are more important to us than really how is gold doing or how is copper doing, you know, or how is iron doing. No, I meant mainly in terms of our relations with you both, in copper and gold. Will copper and gold be? Nothing to report, nothing to report over last quarter or two, Ashutosh. It's the same, Ashutosh. Our focus is absolutely the same. Okay. Got it, got it, got it. Okay, that's all from my side. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. The next question is on the line of Ravi Swaminathan from Spark Capital. Please go ahead. Hi, sir. Congrats on a good set of numbers. My first question is with respect to the mining efforts that we are taking in terms of new geographies, et cetera. Any thoughts on that? Are we looking at newer countries in terms of addressable market? Any thoughts on that, sir? Ravi, actually, all the key markets which are very, very important would include, of course, the North American market, the LATAM. They remain the markets of absolute star focus. Australia remains a very important market. CIS remains a very important market. All those markets, you know, Ravi, the whole issue is that as we explained, it's an agonizingly long process of conversion, and the markets, the dynamics, everything remain absolutely the same. Chile, Peru, these are all extremely critical. Brazil. As similarly, North America, Canada, they are all very, very important. Gold and copper remain the key driving forged. Iron, of course, is there. It's absolutely the same. Okay. Yes, new customer development continues. Lot of new mines are under discussion, negotiation. Again, onboarding important, you know, good number of people, training them continuously, that all processes have to continue to make sure that our bandwidth is available. Conversion, as you know, is a very long process. We are at it, absolutely. Got it, sir. One more question: working capital has kind of improved this year significantly? Yes, you're right. Yes. Any reason behind that? I would say a little more conscious efforts, and also the fact that because of improvement in shipping times and other things, the inventory which was in transit, that impact is also reducing a little bit. That's what we had guided as well, right? That we are carrying extra inventory, during COVID and uncertainty around shipping times. I think it's just a little bit of alignment back. 7-8 days improvement in finished goods holding, a few days improvement in data realization. That's it. Yes, there is an overall ongoing process, but the COVID shipping is what helped us with the finished goods. Got it. Thanks. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. The next question is on the line of Garvit Goyal from Invest Research. Please go ahead. Hello. Good evening, sir. Am I audible? Yes. Sir, my question is from other income side. Like you earlier mentioned, in other income, Forex gains are constituting a significant part. Can you give me a number on how much is for closing FY23 out of this INR 240 crore of other income, is the Forex gain? Out of... There is a- No, we have given the breakdown. Forex gain for the full year was INR 58 crores last year and INR 99 crores this year. You are mentioning it is likely to reverse in this FY 2024, right? No, no. I was saying, end of Q3, our foreign exchange gain was at INR 75 crores, right? Right, right. In Q3, between Q2 and Q3, essentially, that was the difference. Some realized, some not, because the rupee had strengthened and then weakened in that quarter. As you would know that in the fourth quarter, January to March, rupee had strengthened, right? Yes, sir. While the rupee had subsequently in this quarter, weakened again. I mean, I was just explaining the drastic reduction from INR 75 crores in third quarter to INR 15 crores in the fourth quarter. Understood. Understood, sir. Sir, again, on the realization side, currently these are at about INR 1,70,000. My question is on the, how much of this realization is the kind of permanent one due to the product mix problem? No, you know, it's very, very difficult to give you exact maths because it is a function of several factors. One is the product mix, which is a very important factor. Second is, there's always a lag of pass-through, either on the increase of raw material or freight, and decrease of raw material and freight. Again, the product mix variation is also very, very vast. If you see the lower end to upper end, we are talking of INR 80-90, all the way going to INR 250. Again, you know, there are multiple sets of factors at work. We therefore, generally, you know, historically, we have been giving this data. Actually, internally, we do as a%, operating EBITDA, which is the best yardstick for us also. I think that's what we have been always saying, 22%-23% is what we have been consistently focused on. Yes, some quarters we have done better, couple of quarters we might not do as good, but over a longer period, a consistent, percentage, EBIT, operating, pure operating EBITDA is what would be the best yardstick to monitor us. Okay, understood, sir. Understood. That's it for me, sir. Thank you. Thank you. The next question is on the line of Dhaval Shah from AlfAccurate Advisors. Please go ahead. Hello. Yes. Yeah, sir. My question is on the volumes front. I think in the last con call, you mentioned that the guidance for FY 2023. Sorry to interrupt, Mr. Shah, but there's a lot of disturbance from your line. Is that fine now? It's slightly better. Obviously, you can hear some more. Is that audible now? Okay. Please continue. Yeah, yeah. My question is, you know, in the last con call, I think we mentioned that the volume guidance for 2023 was roughly 2.95 lakh to 3 lakh tons, against which we did roughly 2.91 lakh tons. Can you please share, I mean, what led to miss the, you know, the roughly 5,000-10,000 volumes for this FY 2023? This will be shifted in the next fiscal or not, because your guidance is roughly 30,000 tons, which you already, you know, shared the last con call also, that the FY 2024 guidance would be roughly 30,000-40,000 tons. This incremental 5,000-10,000 miss will be added in the FY 2024 numbers? Is that understanding correct or not? You are, the point is that as a company, this is indicative guide, reflecting the opportunity risk. Sorry to interrupt, sir. Just mute your line when you're not speaking, it's a lot of clutter on the call. There is a ringing, there's ring coming in. Sir, that is from the line of Mr. Shah. Is it from your end or our end? Sir, that is from the line of the participant's line, Mr. Shah. Okay. Got it. I can hear you. Okay. I'll just answer that question quickly. It's more indicative and directional. We sell to more than 120 countries. There is shipping involved, right? There's always a few thousand tons that move here and there. 30,000 tons, whether we did, I guided 9, 295, we did 291, so it'll be 30 plus 34. It doesn't work that way. It's more, it's only directional. We'll do, you know, additional 30,000 tons. Revenue recognition challenges. Exactly. passing. It's only directional. We may do 25, we may do 34. Directionally, we are saying that it looks to be headed that way next year. Okay. Okay. Can you share the ferrochrome price for the last quarter, Q4? I think in Q3, the price was roughly INR 120 a kg. Is that almost the same or not? Yeah, everything is in that range, a little high. It was lower, no? It's gone to... See, it's difficult for us to, you know, we work with several alloys. These are all directional answers. It'll be difficult for us to do. Ferrochrome, as we speak, is about 5%-10% higher than what it was end of fourth quarter, end of third quarter. Sure, sir. Yeah. That's all from me. Thank you. The next question is on the line of Dhananjai Bagrodia from ASK Group. Please go ahead. Hi, sir. Thank you. Thank you for this opportunity. Wanted to ask you, sir, our freight cost, is it till port or till the final customer? It depends. For majority of the customers, it's till the final customer. We generally do on delivered basis, but there'll be customers who want it FOB, CIF, at the port, et cetera. All those combinations are possible, but largely delivered to the customer. Okay. Maybe I missed this with all the noise going on, but just roughly, what any volume guidance you would give for the company as a whole for next year, 2024? About 30,000 tons for next year. Okay. Any margin guidance? ... yeah, 20%-22% is our directional profit guidance. Sir, lastly, just wanted to ask, event, let's say, in mining or non-cement, are we seeing any any particular increase happening in overall CapEx between any of the clients we have? Because on the other side, we're not seeing so much mining growth happening in some of the commodities we track. Are you all seeing that? No, no. Let me first clarify that our growth is more of a function of our conversion cycle getting positive in our favor, given the fact that there is a very significant headroom between the current level of penetration of ferrochrome vis-à-vis the current market. Assuming for a moment that. Okay, we all know that mining continues worldwide with a growth of maybe, single digit, 3%, 4%, 5%, 6%, whatever it could be. Assuming that there is no growth, even then, with the current penetration of, say, about 25%, I have a headroom for growth, for conversion, and that is what is driving our growth. Our growth is completely, we are very agnostic to the industry growth and CapEx cycles. Having said that, copper and gold both are very, very, you know, very bullish. Overall, the approach, as you know, in EVs and everywhere, copper is required. Gold is a commodity. Gold is a metal which is always in demand. Iron continues to be the metal, which is normal growth with the overall world growth. I think, I think generally, the, as I explained, we are not very particular about the CapEx cycles. Having said that, we see some positive CapEx cycles, but, our total focus is on conversion rather than those CapEx cycles. Okay, sure. No, definitely. Perfect. You said INR 400 crore CapEx over the next 2 years? Yes, yes. Would working capital. At the minimum, that could be a little higher. This is as of now. Sure. Would working capital be in the similar range as it is now? I think you can take it in the similar range, number of days overall. Perfect. Thank you so much. Thanks. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Priyanka Biswas from Nomura. Please go ahead. Hi. Congratulations, Sanjay and Kunal. Thank you, Priyanka. set of numbers. Thanks. The first quick question is, I see some debt that you have taken all of a sudden. I mean, a bit of a surprising. No, no, no. That is basically, Priyanka, a working capital, foreign currency borrowings. I think these are normal treasury operations, Priyanka. It's basically packing credit. Exactly. We are all optimizing our treasury operation. packing credit, those sort of things, essentially. Exactly. Like that, like, on the balance sheet that it was just present, something like that. Yeah, around 400. Correct. Correct. Yeah. Our cash is INR 3,000. We've got INR 400, INR 450 of net. You have a net cash of whatever, right? I haven't reported gross cash, but these are treasury operations that are you know, normal and customary at this level of working capital. Okay, understood. The second part is, typically in fourth quarter, your non-mining volumes tends to be quite higher. This time, what we are seeing is that the March quarter non-mining volumes are lower than December. I think I kept explaining every time there is no trend, there is no trend, you know. I'm happy it's that way, because I can now get away from that question on the fourth quarter. It does us no good to report a great fourth quarter. There's no reporting on an annual basis. You guys grill us every quarter, nevertheless, right? I mean, it just, it happens that way. There are so many, you know, every container is an invoice for us, and there are various, you know, what happened that quarter, you know, the concentration of customers, the delivery lead times, et cetera, that comes into play. No, there is no cyclical, sir. There is nothing cyclical about our business, so to say, really. Also additionally. Not driven by a particular requirement from- We have this quarter also, see, the West has cement plant shutdowns because of winter. See, there are times when they place it in the third quarter, sometimes in the fourth quarter. There are underlying things, but nothing that's a given, saying fourth quarter will always be more. You understand? Okay, understood. It was merely just it used to happen, like earlier, I mean, no definite trend. Exactly. Correct. Yeah. What I see is this time the other operating income is higher. You explained that there was a 1% road tax received. Exactly. This should continue in FY 24 and 25, right? Yeah. Essentially, by that point in time, it should be higher. Yes. Yeah, yeah. As long as the policy continues. Same policy, if it continues as it is. Yeah. Also, one more question, if I can squeeze in. Any developments in Canada or Brazil related to the anti-dumping matters? Not really. Brazil duty will come up for review middle of this year, and it will take another year for its, you know, process. Like I said, it's now this is something that we have to deal with. Canada is there's a well-settled administrative process in place and which we are complying with. Our dispatches continue. Okay. When can we hear anything about Canada? Sorry? When can we hear about any updates from Canada? We shared Canada to say we lost volume and there's a duty thing. Now it's part of all the other countries that we're doing. You know, I don't think Canada needs special attention beyond that. Our volume growth is economically to that. On everything else that we're doing, that Canada is not a material part of our thing. It's an important market, and we'll deal with it, right? Our growth cannot be contingent on things happening there. I mean, that's the mindset in which, you know, business is being structured. Okay. Well understood. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. The next question is on the line of Ganesh from Dhanlaxmi Investments. Please go ahead. Hello. Good evening, sir. Thank you for the opportunity. Yeah. Sir, I just wanted to know about the strategy of your company broadly. When we say that lining market and the grinding market is shifting from legacy players, we are also seeing some lining, you know, kind of composites or polymers or even ceramic-based grinding media. How do you see our right to win in chrome-based media and lining, and how do you evaluate that currently? This would be my first question. I think there are two parts to the answer. One is underlying structure of the business. For the courtesy to everyone else on the call, I think it'll be a longer answer, and Sanjay Bhayani can help you offline with that. Ceramic is a fringe solution, right? There is As far as grinding media is concerned, there's forged and there's cast high chrome. We do not go offer commercial, third, spherical medium to grind from, you know, input feed. Today, I think There will always be fringe elements, small parts here and there being used, and they may be, you know, in that zone for many, many years or decades, right? From a grinding media standpoint, there is no alternate material coming in. As far as mill liners are concerned, you always had the current market also uses metal hybrids and rubber, right? Each has its own independent silo. You know, we will also have a strategy for hybrids like others may, and there's enough market for all of us to grow. I mean, today, 50,000 ton capacity that we have, I think we are not too much bothered by the macro, you know, hybrid versus rubber versus steel and all of that. I mean, it's a far more layered solution that we have, where we are going and talking about increasing throughput, reduction in power and other things within the metal side, right, today. That's a large market for us to not really worry about those trends. There's no point in debating or discussing another company's strategy or another person's view over here. I mean, there is a market for hybrids, and there's a market for rubber and a market for steel liners. I think we'll leave it at this for now, and happy to do offline, you know, for overall strategy for the business. Just a quick add, what solution we have in mill liners, I don't think anybody else can offer. I mean, that is the uniqueness of our solution. Okay, sir. Got it, sir. Thank you for that. Sir, coming to the chrome-based media in particular, how do you evaluate our, you know, current competency or current, you know, competitiveness in this market? See, very honestly, we believe that we have climbed up the knowledge chain quite a bit in terms of our competencies. In cement, I think unquestionably, we would be a quality leader across the globe, and the kind of solutions that we have, any type of mill, any type of equipment, we have that solution. Similarly, now in mining, with our focus on the chrome and the wear rate advantage that our product brings, plus the DP or the down-process benefit that we have demonstrated, and the mill lining uniqueness of the solution, again, we believe that we are a very unique company offering all these under one roof on a very composite basis. There is, of course, there is competition, so there are companies like Magotteaux, they compete with us. On the forged side, you have the Molycop and the Elecmetal, and then on the mill lining, you have Bradken and Norcast, et cetera. One company having all these capabilities and also very unique benefits or solutions that we can bring on table, I think that's a very sweet spot to us, and we continue to remain very focused in taking advantage of that situation. Okay, sir. Thank you. My last question would be on the cash and other investments that we have in our books. Do we have any planned out any strategy for short-term? Right now, yes, we understand there's a very different amount of cash that we are generating and utilizing. Having said that, a significantly large CapEx is still on cards, we believe that we should reach at least a significant level of penetration. Any opportunity can come across, we should be ready with any situation. We believe that we want to remain a little more comfortable with higher level of cash, at least for maybe minimum one more year or maybe even little longer. That's our internal thought process. Okay, sir. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you, sir. Thanks. Thank you. The next question is on the line of Aniket Mittal from SBI Mutual Fund. Please go ahead. Nice. Thank you for the opportunity. Sure. A few questions. Firstly, on the mill liner part, it seems to me that we've done about, 5,000-6,000 tons from the new mill liner facility this year, and the plan is to go or add another 10,000 over the next one year. If you could just throw some light on, you know, what lenses that visibility to ramp this up in FY24 in terms of the trials that are undertaken? That we've already shared the overall guidance, that we'll add about 10,000 tons of mill lining a year. Idea is to fully utilize the plants in four years. You know, 50,000 rated capacity, we should be able to do between 40-45, you know, and comfortably add 10,000 tons of, you know, is the current plan. That's all within, you know, our current utilization. ... Could you maybe just throw some light with geographies here that are we getting traction on for these ramp up in mill liners? And what is the number of sites where trials are happening? Yeah, there are three types of customers. Our existing customers who has a, you know, whose, where we can try and open up a relationship. Second is new customers, where we are doing it with our own design. Third is with a new design, right? There's a whole variety of these. It's a very conservative market. People don't want to change their incumbents or existing players. The ultimate strategy is to sell more grinding media, the idea is not just to sell, you know, mill liners. Our wish list is to go to a customer where we can sell a whole solution, which is mill liners and grinding media, and offer the whole gamut of benefits that accrue by using our own combination, right? That's, it's within these three parts, and this is to customers wherever there is mining being done, so no special focus on one geography. Our current pitch is also fairly diversified, that'd be fair to say, for the mill liners? Current sales, you're saying, is also split amongst geographies, right? That's your question. mill liners. Yeah, yeah, they are fairly spread. Yeah, there's no one country doing 50% sales or one customer doing 50% of that. Fair. The second question was just to harp on the non-mill lining front or the non-mining front. Where you've talked about this being fairly volatile in nature, and we've seen that over the past 4 quarters. Let's say, going ahead, how do we look at, let's say, the volume growth over here? Sir, it is not volatile. We said, billing, invoicing cannot be sharpened to every quarter. I mean, it moves between quarters here and there, but broadly, we've done about 90,000-95,000 tons. We don't expect a lot of growth coming in from there. I mean, it's linked to the cement market overall and, you know, the thermal power in India, and these are not industries that are fundamentally growing, and most conversion has happened to chrome. We are not factoring growth or budgeting any of that. Whatever the market grows or additional requirement comes in, we'll be a natural beneficiary of that. What would be the split between, let's say, cement and utilities? Would we. I don't think it'll help any further analytics, because that's our pocket of... We're not sharing further granular information on it, and probably won't help any further evaluation of the business. Okay. Those were my questions. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Bhoomika Nair from DAM Capital. Please go ahead. Yeah, good evening, sir, and congratulations on a good set of numbers. Thank you. My, yeah. My question was, you know, we're talking of an incremental, 30,000 tons of volumes annually. Now, with the mining liners capacity coming up and a lot of our solutions, which are now much more like a solution-based rather than just only the castings or the grinding media and everything, it's kind of a complete integrated solution that we are offering. You know, I mean, we're looking at a 10% kind of a growth as such going forward. Shouldn't the actually, the volume scale-up be faster now that we are having a much better, integrated solutions and offering now? You are absolutely right, and that's what we are working towards, right? There is an overriding layer of context to this industry, which is customers being conservative, right? There is an element of decision-making, there are these other variables which are a strong influence, and what that does is limits our ability to forecast and give a certain figure, right? You know, if for us to go out and say 50,000 may or may not be easier, it is easier to do, but it's easier to it's difficult to forecast. I think that's where we are coming from, that the beauty of the business is not going to be rapid J-curve growth. It's the steady stability that comes with that growth is because the customers stay, right? I don't have to go fish for, you know, that one more order, one more customer, which somebody else is trying to pry away, right? That's the beauty of this business, that it could be a slower growth, but it's a surer growth, you know, throwing out reasonable free cash flow and profits. I think that's the nature of our business. I mean, the joy is not to go and say we did 100,000 tons a year, right? The joy is to go become the largest in the world and whatever time and effort it takes towards that. The short answer is yes, we would hope and wish that it's more, but over the experience has taught us that there is some variable that can go against us, and we don't know what that is. That's why rather than forecasting and trying to explain where we are and we're saying, "You know, here's where, here's what's possible." It's more directional answer, as you know. This is not, you know, a studied, you know, specific answer. Right. You know, because where I was coming from is that we are already at 440 by the end of this year with the additional capacity coming in, and we'll be at 520, and then we are talking of also debottlenecking a little bit, which will further add capacity. If we are adding 30,000 on an annualized basis, that would mean that, you know, utilization levels and asset turns would kind of fall quite a bit because you would have 350, or if I take a, you know, broadly a 30,000 tons of incremental. Bhoomika. Will we possibly go slow on expanding? No, no. Let me, let me stop you here. Mm-hmm. See, 30,000 is a doable number as we speak today. Mm-hmm. As we explained, there are several mines on which we are working. There are many opportunities on which we are working. A significant conversion or a major conversion can ramp up the volumes much faster than what we are talking, and that is the reason why we're feeling encouraged to go on expanding our capacities. Correct? Mm-hmm. The problem is, as we have explained again and again, this conversion process, we work with several constraints. ... the mines, they work with a fixed budget. They need a lot of conviction. Our solution has fantastic results, and there are a lot of demonstrating the facts that we have also talked to the mines. It takes a little while. Now, there would be an inflection point where we can say that, yes, we can grow much faster. We hope we should reach that inflection point sooner, and as we reach, things can change. As of now, let's go with this number, at least for this year. Let's not talk of very long term. Otherwise, there's no point in my expanding, no? Sure, sure. The other aspect was on the, you know, margin profile. Now, obviously, you know, margin has kind of moved up, whether we look at it on a per ton or a percentage basis, et cetera. Yes. you know, as we're expanding our volumes and, you know, driving volume growth, how is the competition? Do you think that, you know, we need to scale down if you want to grow volumes a little more aggressively, or do you think that can happen hand in hand together? I frankly, you know, we have to have a mix of everything. Wherever the chrome advantage is moderate, we have to be very competitive in pricing. Wherever we want to have a breakthrough in a mine, and that mine manager doesn't want to budge with his budget, we have to again be competitive. Over a period of time, we have demonstrated that for certain pockets and certain businesses where our penetration is more based on significant value add, the pricing as a stress is not the only point that really can impact us. I would say at this point in time, a 22 odd% sustainable pure operating EBITDA is something that we are very, very sure of. There is definitely a room for improvement, but at this point in time, for the same reasons, we are not giving any guidance for any margin expansion. Having said that, there is good room for margin expansion. Let's see how it goes. You have to wait and watch. Sure, sir. Just lastly, you know, we have about a roughly 2,500-2,600 crores of net cash on books. Obviously every year, we are generating a huge amount of free cash flow, which can easily fund working capital and CapEx requirements. Any thoughts on usage of cash? While we have announced an INR 16 dividend, yet, I think the 16. cash is quite. Yeah, yeah. Despite that, I mean, you know, there's a decent amount of cash. No, no, I agree. Behind. As I said, we have, conservatively decided to have a little higher holding, at least for another year. I assure you there will be. There is a very conscious and continuous discussion in every board meeting on this, and there would be, at an opportune time, something that we will do with extra cash. I either consider giving you back or doing, you know, something which is there, but I think let's wait for a while. Sure, sir. Sure, sir. Okay, sir. Thank you so much. Wishing you all the best. Thank you. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Alisha Mahawalkar from Envision Capital. Please go ahead. Yes, please. The next question is from the line of Alisha Mahawalkar from Envision Capital. Please go ahead. Alisha, your line is in the talk mode. Please go ahead. Miss Mahawalkar, your line is in the talk mode. Please go ahead. There seems to be no response from the current participant. Participants, if you wish to ask a question, you may please press star and one. Yeah, operator, I think the queue is over then, right? Yes, sir. All right, cool. All right, thank you everyone for joining the call, and as Sanjay and I may remain available offline for any more questions. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, members of the management team. Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes your conference call for today. We thank you for your participation and for using Chorus Call conferencing services. You may please disconnect your lines now. Thank you and have a great evening.