Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to Camlin Fine Sciences Limited business update conference call. This conference call may contain forward-looking statements about the company, which are based on the beliefs, opinions, and expectations of the company as on date of this call. These statements are not the guarantees of future performance and involve risks and uncertainties that are difficult to predict. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in listen-only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during this conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star then zero on your touchtone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to the management of Camlin Fine Sciences Limited. Thank you, and over to you, sir. Thank you very much. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. I'm Ashish Dandekar, Chairman and Managing Director of the company, and a warm welcome to you for the investor call, which is being organized after a fairly long time. You would have already received and read our investor presentations posted on our website, as well as in the stock exchanges. As you are aware, an open offer was triggered in April of 2023 by me, along with Infinity and the Belgian-based AvH Group. The open offer was successful, and the co-promoters were able to acquire about 9.9% in the open offer. With this acquisition, the entire promoter stake now stands at 48.03%. I'm very pleased to introduce to you both the new promoters, Infinity and AvH, who are represented and are here with us today. By Harsha Raghavan, who is the Managing Director of Convergent for Infinity. He doesn't really need an introduction, as he has been my colleague on the board since 2020. AvH is represented today by John-Eric Bertrand, Co-CEO of AvH. I am delighted and excited that we will now be supported by two superbly capable and experienced co-promoters. Harsha, Convergent, and Infinity have always displayed their deep commitment and have played a pivotal role in shaping critical decisions at CFS, at CFS. AvH, with their acumen and experience in fostering business enterprises, will certainly add tremendous and immense value to our business. The confidence reposed by my new co-promoters fosters well for the company's vision and strategy. I would invite Harsha and John-Eric to introduce themselves and brief us on their rationale to be part of CFS. I would first request John-Eric to share his views, please. Well, good afternoon, and thank you very much, Ashish. It's a pleasure to be with all of you this afternoon. We are a family-controlled, diversified group which is listed on the Euronext stock exchange, part of the BEL 20 index, but also the BEL ESG index. We have a consolidated equity of around EUR 4.8 billion. We were founded almost 150 years ago as a dredging company. We remained a dredging company for almost 100 years, but we're diversifying together with the family and other management teams into other markets and activities. And this probably explains, to a significant extent, our success. The dredging activity has, in the meantime, become a global, also diversified company with a leading position in installation of offshore wind farms. It makes up about 1/3 of our consolidated equity position. Back in the beginning of the 1990s, we also stepped into the private banking sector and helped the family there bring the assets under management from EUR 500 million to EUR 62.4 billion today. Now, we have also a number of partnerships within our private real estate, energy and resources, and development capital activities, among other partnerships in India. We are very much looking forward to joining forces with Convergent, with Ashish Dandekar, and the management team to support the company in its further development. We position ourselves as long-term partners of families and management teams to help them build out performing market leaders and contribute to a more sustainable world. And we believe the company's high vertical integration, its relentless customer focus, its diversification of its product portfolio, and also continuous expansion of that portfolio with, among others, natural antioxidants, creates a very robust position. We're very much impressed by this company's management team, its passion, and innovative drive. So we look very much forward to continuing helping together with the promoter group and management team, building out this company. We believe in very sound financial basis. We think this explains, amongst others, how we have been able to continue for 150 years. And we look into finding, helping companies develop sustainable business models. And we think this is very much the case of Camlin, and they are part of the solution. ... also by providing antioxidants products that prevent decaying of food, and will hence be part of the solution to feed a global population of more than 8 billion. Thank you. Thank you, John-Eric. Harsha, I request you to share your views. I'd be delighted to, Ashish. Thank you so much for, it's an honor and pleasure to be here on this platform along with my two colleagues and co-promoters, John-Eric from AvH, as I think you just heard from him, and Ashish Dandekar, who's been already our partner for the last several years. My name is Harsha Raghavan, and I'm the managing partner of Convergent Finance, which is an investment and advisory partnership that manages funds on behalf of Infinity Holdings. We invested... Infinity Holdings invested and purchased 21.6% of Camlin in 2020. It has therefore been my privilege to be a part of the journey alongside Ashish on the Board of Camlin for the last two years. By virtue of this cooperation agreement and open offer, we have now increased our stake together to 58%, and formalized the partnership with AvH and with Ashish. For us, this is a defining moment since the partnership that we have already built at Camlin over three years is now going to be extended for many, many more years to come, which aligns very well with our philosophy around being a long-term shareholder and a long-term custodian of truly excellent companies. In line with that, one of the things that we have found to be a real delight is the alignment of objectives between what Camlin represents, what AvH represents, and Convergent's own guiding principles. Just very quickly, those are mainly the following: In terms of objectives, our purpose is to create win-win outcomes for clients, employees, stakeholders, and the broader community. In terms of risk reward, our goal is to take calculated risks that generate alpha. Our core values that underpin how we achieve these objectives are six things. The first is Integrity, and our ethics are something we never compromise on. The second is Communication, a spirit of transparency, honesty, and concise communication that we pride ourselves on. The third is the Entrepreneurial Culture, working nimbly and entrepreneurially alongside the company that we work with. The fourth is Teamwork, and that collaborative approach we've seen at Camlin and with our cooperation agreement here. The fifth is Excellence, and that quest for continuous excellence in anything we do, which again, we've seen with Camlin, time and time again. And then the last, which relates with John-Eric's point about their rankings on the, ESG, score, is Social Impact, to make sure that we improve the world around us. With that, I'll hand it back to Ashish, and, I would want to relate my appreciation that, we are now co-promoter alongside two great partners. Thank you. Thank you, Harsha. We're looking forward to a very long and fruitful association between us. Before I open the forum for questions, I have a few requests. Please direct the first set of questions towards topics or towards the new co-promoters and on the subject of the open offer. After that, we would like to take questions on the business. I would request the participants to address the questions related to quarter ended June 30th, 2023, for obvious reasons. The questions will be responded to by my colleague, Nirmal Momaya, MD, and Santosh Parab, CFO. I now open the forum for questions. Thank you very much. We now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on your touchtone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we'll wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. Participants, you may press star and one to ask a question. Ladies and gentlemen, you may press star and one to ask a question. The first question is from the line of Parin Gala from Sage One Investments. Please go ahead. Yeah. Hi, thank you. This question is for Harsha. So Harsha, you've been on the Board for three years now, so- I request you to unmute your line from your side and go ahead with your question, please. My line is open. Hello, am I audible? Yes, we can hear you now. Yeah. Harsha, you've been on the Board with Camlin for three years, and I'm not aware if you have been on the board of some other companies in India or global. So can you draw a parallel with the three years of your experience in Camlin and your earlier engagement with other companies that you've built in the three years to change Camlin into, you know, an institution which it can become in the future? Could you have the question to? Great. Parin, thank you so much. I, I've seen the question recently, but I wanted to make sure. And if I understand the question correctly, it is, have I been on the boards of other companies for three years or more, and what changes have been achieved in that period? And pardon, the answer to that is yes, I have 27 years of industrial experience, almost entirely here in India. And as in my former roles, particularly as the former head of Fairfax in India, I was on a number of listed, public listed company boards for much longer than three years. One example I can share with you is Thomas Cook, where I joined that Board in 2010 and served on that Board for almost 10 years. In that period, Thomas Cook went from being initially a subsidiary of a U.S. parent. When we bought it, we were able to liberate them from the U.S. parent and allow them to truly spread their wings. Over the 8 years, from 2018, Thomas Cook India acquired 24 other businesses under our supervision, and we were able to really transform Thomas Cook into a multinational corporation. There are many other examples of listed companies in India that I can share with you in a private setting. But in the case of Camlin, I can also point out that the company is already a multinational, already has operations in a number of geographies. With our involvement on M&A, capital allocation, and the objectives I mentioned around prudent risk-taking, and with experience from our new partners at AvH, I'd say the company now has access to some of the best global expertise and networks to continue on its journey. Sure. Thanks. Thank you. Next question is from the line of Huseain Bharuchwala from Carnelian Capital. Please go ahead. Hello? Hello. Hello. Sorry, your voice is breaking. Can you...? Am I audible now? Yes. Great. So just two questions. One was on your specifically on the chemistry side. So when I look at, so, their chemistry or they are, what do you say? Their value stream is slightly different from what, how Camlin makes it. As a result of which, I think the pricing power that they get in terms of their cost of production is much lower. So how are we shaping it across, when I look at, between Clean Science and Camlin? So just wanted to understand your chemistry capabilities, as to how vanillin can actually help you guys. So I'm recently started tracking this company, so wanted to understand on that front. What I suggest is we answer that question a little later. First, let's finish the question addressed to the promoters. Okay. So coming to the buyback and promoter, I have one more question on that front. So I think recently we had a shutdown in a plant just two days prior to our IPO. Sorry, our just two days prior to our buyback, that we had, the o pen offer that we had. So, why was it any specific timeline that it happened, that it just happened just prior to the open offer? Any reason to that, if you can explain that? No, there are no specific reasons. It was the temporary shutdown was due to economic reasons. The markets, the prices in Europe and conditions in Europe were not favorable to produce for the time being, and that's how it has been suspended for, you know, for a period of time until the economic conditions change or improve. Just to add to that, so how do you see things shaping up going forward, for the overall vanillin and overall MEHQ that we build? Please, I said I will answer these questions afterwards. Yeah, let's- Okay, okay. No worries. Okay, okay. We'll, we'll get back on it. Yeah. Okay, thank you. Thank you. Next question is from the line of Dhruv from Vasuki India Fund. Please go ahead. Hi, thanks for taking the question. Am I audible? Yes. Yeah. So on the open offer, the initial open offer that came out was for acquisition of 25-odd percentage stake from the public. And what has been tendered actually is somewhere about 10%, right? So the remaining 15%, do you expect to continue ramping up the stake? I mean, I'm assuming that 25% was a strategic kind of a number to go above 50% as a promoter holding. So what can we expect going forward? I mean, not from a timeline perspective, but more from a direction perspective. So the public information? Yeah, Harsha, can you... Would you like to answer it? Yeah, certainly. I can answer on behalf of at least one of us, if not more. But we at Convergent had a 21% stake that we acquired in 2010. By virtue of this open offer now, we've increased that stake, and the total promoter shareholding is 48%. We do believe that 48% is a very successful outcome. You're right, that being somewhere in the 50% range is one of our objectives. That has been broadly achieved, since we have the framework for a good partnership amongst promoters 48%. In the future, if the company needs further capital, we'd certainly always be there and available to support the company with its capital raising needs. Of course, each situation will have to be evaluated at the time. And if in those capital raising needs there were to be an implication that of stake hold-up, then we would be possibly able to that. Thanks. That answers my question. I'd like to-- Great! And John-Eric or Ashish, do you have something to add? Well, thank you, Harsha. For my part, I can only confirm that we are happy to be among the strong promoter group. And indeed, as Harsha mentioned, we will look into supporting the company further if there are growth opportunities which we cannot predict for them. Yes. I agree, Harsha. I think you've been quite comprehensive in voicing the situational objectives, so I have nothing more to add. Thank you. So do you have any follow-up questions? No, that's, that's it. Thanks. Thank you. Next question is from the line of Ravi Mehta from Deep Financial. Please go ahead. Yeah, hi. Thanks for this call. My question to the co-promoters, basically just going through the slide, CFS 3.0, where, you know, a lot of focus, where the promoter want to, you know, focus for the next three, four years been mentioned. So just wanted to understand, like when you are getting into this company again, you know, with a longer horizon, so where do you see the roadmap? What are the gaps, which you think, you can plug in with your expertise and networks? And, you know, where you can collectively take this company in three years, five years down the line. Some roadmap, some colors, some strategy around what gaps you feel like plugging in, you know, that would be appreciated. I'm sorry, is this a question for AvH? It's for Harsha, AvH. Yeah, I mean, collectively, yeah. Okay. So, John-Eric, would you like to kick off? Sure. Well, happy to start off. We see a company which is expanding boldly, globally, with—which is taking on market leadership positions in its markets. As I mentioned, we have a global network, a global presence, and we believe we can help Camlin further, where we are present, through our networks expand. This is how we work within our group to try to also introduce our partners to other partners within the group and to our own networks. We also have a fairly broad experience as an industrial group. You have heard that we have market leadership position in dredging and offshore sectors, but we've also been active in the industry, chemical industry sector. We are reference shareholders of Oleon, which is a leading producer of oleochemicals. And we're also present in a number of Camlin's key end markets, such as food and beverage, as co-control participation in SIPEF, which is a leading producer of sustainable palm oil. We're very much looking forward to helping the management team geographical footprint, and also sharing experience in terms of industrial strategies to be deployed, and indeed helping with capital allocation and corporate governance, if the management should require that. Sure. Yes, thank you, John-Eric. Ravi, I think your question is great. In fact, it's give a chance also to reflect. For the last three years, since we made our initial investment, at that time, Camlin had almost completed Phase 1 of launch. That is now completed and has been operating successfully for several years. We have also started construction and fully built vanillin plants, which is now also ramping up operation quite admirably. We have also fully consolidated the Mexico division, which earlier was not fully owned by Camlin. And lastly, we have acquired a business called AlgalR, which is developing some fermentation-based compounds. All of this is just in the last two years. I can honestly state, objectively state, that the Camlin of today looks nothing much like the Camlin from three years ago. So I think a lot has been accomplished. Similarly, if we move forward by next three years, we would clearly expect that many of the initiatives underway already would have matured and would be yielding results. We would expect some of these are all announced projects, but we would expect to see vanillin ramp up to full capacity over time. We would expect to see some of the R&D projects that have been disclosed in the public domain. Not all, but some of them will start yielding outputs in the marketplace. And we will continue to look selectively and carefully at any further acquisition opportunities in the world around us. I'd say that the vision for Camlin right now, what it's achieved already just in three years, and what it can achieve over the next three and longer periods of time, I'd say is why we have increased our stake at this stage. Sure. Sure. And there is a specific mention of identifying synergistic build-on acquisitions. So anything probably the promoters have in mind and probably it can pan out in near future? For the statement, speculative statements of that nature, I don't think it would be appropriate. However, you're right, that this is an area that we will always continue to constantly evaluate. And once as and when these are fortified, then we give out. Sure. Sure. Wish you all the best. Thank you. Thank you. Next question is from the line of Rohit Sinha, from Sunidhi Securities and Finance. Please go ahead. Yeah, thank you for taking the question. So this question is for John. Just wanted to understand, if correct me if I'm wrong, in looking at the PPT or the portfolio where you were, you have been invested in part. So just wanted to understand, this investment in chemical company, how has been performing after a few years from your side? And, is this the first time you are into this chemical company investment side, or you have already in chemical or pharma kind of investment earlier, done earlier also? Secondly, when we are picturing our company in terms of global scale, just wanted to understand how we should be seeing this company compared to, obviously it is not very much comparable to Solvay or that company. But yes, how we should see this company growing forward in terms of global scale and in terms of, you can say, complex chemistry, which we are currently operating into? Yes. So maybe I can take your first question. If I understand well, you were wondering if we had similar or experiencing similar industries. We have been involved in a whole series of sectors with many companies operating in industrial platforms just like ours. And so we have experience as promoters, reference shareholders in both private and listed companies in India. We also have a longstanding relationship with a listed Indian company in our partnerships with the Reddy family as shareholders of Sagar Cements. This is a group which we supported the family in bringing from an installed capacity of around 600,000 tons more than 15 years ago to 10.25 million tons installed capacity, and which has become one of the important middle-sized players throughout India. As I mentioned, we also have experience in the chemical industry through our reference share ownership of a company called Oleon, which was one of the leading producers of oleochemicals. Maybe coming back to the second part of the question. We are very much impressed by the company's high degree of vertical integration, by its R&D capabilities, by its very strong management team. This is a company which is growing globally in a number of niches, and we believe which is coming closer in a number of niches to its customers, among others, to expanding business. So we see a management team which will continue building out the company in a number of markets going forward, and very much looking forward to supporting them in this. Okay. Okay. One question on the again the future prospect side. Just to say that I think the major requirement or capital need, which company was having five or seven years back, I think they have quite commendably completed their projects. Although some delays were there, but still they have managed to execute some of the big projects and now in a position that almost all the projects which we had under discussion are almost at the completion or are operational. So, I mean, with all this capital requirement coming into in capital flows, which will be coming from the co-promoter side, I think the capital requirement is not a concern going forward for us. So, are we targeting some bigger project as well now? Because I think all our existing projects are completed. If at all that would be the case, I think just to understand what kind of project we should be targeting or how we should scale up our business in the next three to five years. Rohit, I'll answer that question. We are always looking for projects and, in our chemistry or in our markets, what we can do to scale up. So that's something that we, you know, continuously evaluate, and we'll keep evaluating for future growth. Okay. Okay. I will come back and to you for the quarterly update question. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. Next question is from the line of Surya from Phillip Capital. Please go ahead. Yeah, thanks for the opportunity. Thanks for the opportunity to get to interact with the co-promoters also. Welcome you both too. My first question is on the business model, how we can- We can't hear you. We can't hear you. Surya, can you hear us? Due to no response, we move on to the next participant. Next question is from Sudars han Padmanabhan from JM Financial. Please go ahead. Yeah. Can you hear me? Thank you for taking my question. So my question is to understand, you know, one, the company is already backward integrated with fair amount of different, you know, international markets, I mean, Italy, you know, Mexico, et cetera. Can you talk a little bit more on the cost structure? Because when we talk about the entry barriers, the backward integration capabilities and the management risk, somewhere down the line, you know, it is not reflecting in the kind of margins and return ratios that the company is currently doing. So from a category side, what is it from the cost side that you can bring to the tables, you know, on the sourcing from, you know, cutting that excess fat? Also, you know, taking forward from the previous participant, I mean, I would believe that the capability is built today is for a different set of skills, which currently is not operating yet. So how are you planning to improve the scale and bring in more relationships into the fold of Camlin? Thank you. Yeah, so I'll answer that question. Essentially, our business starts from, we buy phenol and convert that into hydroquinone and catechol, which is called the diphenol business, which is our cutting point. To understand our business, hydroquinone is, we get about 40%-45% of hydroquinone, and a joint product, catechol, about 55%. Now, catechol is in an oversupply situation globally. The selling price of catechol is much lower than the cost of production, and it's a hydroquinone chain, which is the profitable chain and has to absorb the losses that we make in the catechol chain. The one thing that changes for us now is that having vanillin, one of the biggest outlets for catechol is vanillin. Being an integrated player for vanillin, after having set up our vanillin facility, the situation changes for us on the catechol front. What we expect in the next few years to come as we scale up our vanillin business is our cost structure, which looks a little warped purely because of lower market realization of catechol and improved realization of vanillin, will change the numbers as you see them today. On the scale side, I mean, given that, you know, are you seeing a, you know, good inquiry in terms of demand? How do you see the scale specifically happening on the vanillin front? The demand of vanillin is quite stable. Vanillin is growing at about 3%-4% a year. Of course, it's a competitive market, and since we are a new entrant, it takes a little bit of time to establish yourself purely because you need to qualify your product into the final product, where vanillin is used. Which is in progress. We've been qualified by several large buyers, and we are up for bidding for those contracts for the next year. So I think we are well positioned now on the vanillin front to you know to try and gain market share in the next few years. Also, we have an ethyl vanillin, so we have a plant which does both vanillin and ethyl vanillin, and we are in fact right now producing ethyl vanillin. We've made the switchover. The switchover typically takes four to six weeks. We've done that, and we'll get our ethyl vanillin, ethyl vanillin is in the process of getting qualified with all these buyers because they typically need both vanillin and ethyl vanillin. So I think, yeah, we are well, well-positioned to scale it up in the next few years, yeah. One final question before I join back the queue. So when you talked about, you know, M&A, specifically the M&A that you have done in your, your investment in pharmaceuticals, et cetera. But as, you know, a gradual play, what is the kind of minimum return ratios that you would be looking at for the investments, you know, you know, that you incur? If you can throw some color on your investment side. ... I suspect that question is to me, Harsha? Yes. Yes, yes. So, before we get to the return ratios, I think, I should make the, very fundamental point that when you are running and building a business, you need to think strategically. And when you think strategically, I think you need to think for the long term. And hence, there will be periods of time, in all companies, where investments must be made, and the return ratios will be only fully, understood and discovered after some period of time. So I think that's part and parcel about doing business. So when we make investments, there, in this company or in any other company, there could be periods of time when, the investments are being made and before the return ratios are visible. Over the long term, though, I think what is clear is that the company's cost of capital should be admirably exceeded, and the equity return for all of us as shareholders should be significantly in excess of the broader market is providing. That is a logical reality. We do not come with a prescriptive set of ratios or numbers, but rather we think strategically and long term to build the business. Thanks a lot. Thank you. Operator, do you want to ask the question? Next question is from Darshan Shah from Multi-Act. Please go ahead. Yeah, thanks for the opportunity. This is Rahul Picha from Multi-Act. So my first question is on the vanillin ramp-up. So just wanted to understand how long are the approval cycles for vanillin, and once, you know, you have received approvals, like you said, you have received with a few buyers, how are the contracts like in which period are the contracts for the next year signed? And so how long is the, you know, commercial supply lag that happens from the approval period? So just wanted to understand a bit on the timelines for vanillin ramp-up. Yeah. So typically, the contracts in the western markets are annual contracts or two-year contracts, and they're for a period starting from calendar year, so January to December. And typically, these are negotiated in the last quarter, the quarter ending December, before the supply starts in January. So as far as approvals are concerned, we are. I mentioned earlier that we've been approved by several large flavor ingredients houses, which their contracts will come up for negotiation. And so the ramp-up, as we see it, will start very quickly once we have those markets covered. Okay. And earlier, we were supplying vanillin from the Chinese joint venture. So right now, the customers that we are targeting are in the same geographies that we were earlier supplying, or there is a change in strategy or different kind of geographies that we are targeting right now? So it's more or less the same geographies, but of course we have a much larger capacity now. So we need to be a little more focused in some markets where there are bigger opportunities. So in terms of our capacity in China was roughly about two-thirds of what we have in India. So the strategy is slightly different, but yes, I mean, it's similar markets. I mean, the renewals are the same. Okay. And coming to catechol now, so how do you see the catechol loss situation currently? And, specifically, you know, you have shut down the European plant, so I assume there is some cut in the supply for catechol that would have happened as a consequence of that. So given that, how do you see the catechol loss situation currently? So catechol, I think, I don't see too much of a improvement in catechol prices. In which way it's currently, there has been stopping and there's this global demand slowdown, which, which we've seen, in the last few months. And, I think very early days to say anything, what is going to happen. We wait and watch. I mean, it's a question of a few quarters till the demand comes back. But as far as catechol is concerned, it's always, a challenge. So the idea is that at some point, we don't sell any catechol in the market, and we sell only the value-added products. We have other value-added products like TBC, we have guaiacol, we have guethol, we have ODEB. So those are all value-accretive, businesses. But of course, the end-use markets are much smaller than vanillin. Vanillin being the largest market. For us, we also have a project with Lockheed Martin, where our catechol would be deployed in the long term. I think we are positioning ourselves to not be really active in the catechol market in the next few years. Okay. Only be in the value-added markets. Okay. And, strategically, how are you looking at the European plant? Like, right now, it's been shut for some time. So on a longer term basis, do you expect to continue with that plant, or there is some strategy to bring the machinery back here in India and then do the manufacturing here at the same location? Like, longer term, how are you thinking about it? It's early days right now. What we are seeing is a correction of prices in the market, which has been significant in the last few months, which led to, of course, us suspending the operations there. We will evaluate the situation as we go along. There's no real clear-cut position or strategy that we have. We will be keep reviewing it and see for how long, you know, this market conditions remain the way they are, and then we'll take a decision. Okay. And right now, while this plant is shut, I assume there would be certain fixed costs that you would be incurring there. So what could be the monthly, you know, kind of, cost that you are incurring there, which would be a loss for the European operations until it is shut? We can't answer that question right now because really we are speaking about the quarter, which was, you know, we can't speak about current quarter. So it's really, if you see the last quarter's results, you know, we were okay immediately. Wanted to understand one more thing, like, over the next two to three years, as you direct more of your catechol to your vanillin production, there would be less and less of catechol sales that you would be making in the market. And I presume what you have been selling is ultimately being consumed by some company to manufacture vanillin. So does that also kind of indirectly lead to the vanillin supply side in the market also becoming more favorable as you stop supplying your catechol? Like, is that directly related or there is enough catechol available for others to kind of source it from somewhere else? Good question. Yes and no. I would say that there are a couple of players who are not integrated. And that could possibly impact the supply of catechol to them. But at this point of time, I think there is adequate catechol available to our competitors, you know, for them to be able to supply to that vanillin producers who don't make their own catechol. Thank you. Darshan, I request you to come back in the queue for a follow-up question. [Darshan], you may press s tar and one to ask a question. Next question is from the line of Madhur Rathi from Counter Cyclical Investments. Please go ahead. Well, good afternoon, sir. Thank you for the opportunity. So, what will be your outlook for FY 2024 in terms of top line and bottom line, seeing all these headwinds that we are seeing currently? And what kind of growth are you expecting for the next two to three years as our new capacity of vanillin ramps up, and the margin that we can expect going forward? Thank you. Unfortunately, we can't make any forward-looking statements because we are in a period where the quarter is ending. So... But our growth, as we have guided in the past, will continue. We will continue to grow at 15%-20% for the next few years. And, as far as margins are concerned, the margin improvement will continue. Sir, what kind of margins will we see shift as we reduce our catechol and increase our vanillin going forward? Again, I can't give you forward-looking statements on numbers, but there will be an improvement, because catechol we lose money, and vanillin we don't lose money, we make a margin on top of that. Okay. Thank you, sir. Thank you. Next question is from the line of Jay Shah from Capital PMS. Please go ahead. Hi. This question is, maybe for Ashish and Harsha. I just want to know that, you know, given now that you have a tripartite, promoter team, where you have geographical presence, apart from, you know, India, you have plants in Europe, Mexico, and in China. So what would be the strategy of the management going forward? Would you want to place yourself more as a chemistry player? Because right now, honestly, Camlin is being more of a product player, especially in the hydroquinone and isoprene space. But now, since you guys have so many other plants across geographies doing different chemistries, is the plan to make Camlin a name to represent when it comes to different chemistry that you can work on? Or you would want to be probably a global product leader in the top five, seven products in Camlin portfolio? Harsha, you can come in. See, we have a- ... We have a consolidated strategy that we've been implementing for the last few years. It's not a situation that is current. And, if you've heard the explanation that Nirmal has been giving on the way forward, the idea is to be an integrated player with the advantage and the strength of being backward integrated totally. Essentially, that is the strategy. It is not one location which is going to add value or not. It's really the consolidated plan that is going to keep adding value. Okay. So my question is because, see, some of the products are going to flavor, fragrance, or vanillin basically, or even- Right. -other products. Beyond the point, because they do not form, you know, more than 3%-4% of the end product that you're supplying to, volume growth becomes difficult in some of those beyond the point. But whereas when you are a chemistry leader, you know, you can always work on downstream or sideways derivatives and keep getting into newer verticals. I'm not sure I understand your question totally, but if I would like to answer it, essentially, if you're asking whether vanillin is a new, ... Component is not. It was always an integral part of the plan to value add on diphenol. And we are further along on that strategy. Maybe, Nirmal, would you like to explain further? Yeah. So your question is around, what you are asking is whether we will focus only on what we are doing or whether there is new chemistries that we will add. Am I right? Is that your question? Right. That's right. Because then what happens is, in a lot of chemicals, when you go into specialty, beyond the point to scale it also becomes a problem because the end market needs to have that much volume, right? And that end market also needs to grow at some certain CAGR, provided through which we can get the critical effects. But that doesn't happen in a lot of specialty, super specialty impact. So that's why the question. Yeah. No, so we continuously, if you see, what we are doing is we are continuously looking at chemistries. Of course, right now we're focused on hydroquinone and catechol and their downstreams, which in itself, I think for the next three to four years or five years, there's a lot of work that needs to be done addressing those markets. Including what we said those with our project with Lockheed. So essentially, for the next few years, we are focused on one side, on hydroquinone and catechol downstream chemistries. On the other hand, which is our blends, is where what you are saying is more, you know, that's playing out a little more for us, is that beyond the point, certain product categories, you need to saturate them, and then you look at different product categories. And that's a continuous process that we are adding new categories for our blends business, which necessarily is not chemistry driven. It is more driven by, you know, by the end use application. So it's more application driven, little less chemistry driven. Right. Okay, okay. Thank you so much, sir, and all the best for the future. Thank you. Thank you. Next follow-up question is from the line of Surya from Phillip Capital. Please go ahead. Yeah, thanks for the opportunity. Am I audible? Yes, Surya. Yeah, okay. Thank you, sir. So my first question was about the possible business model going ahead. See, with the strong promoter base now, it looks like that, okay, the investability has gone up quite significantly. So, now if we see the business model for Camlin, then we have fully integrated in both the legs of the diphenol. Whether it is hydroquinone to the level of antioxidants and the blends. And, here in the catechol side, to the level of vanillin, it is fully end-to-end integrated. And, if anything happens on the Lockheed Martin front, so then that is an extension, obviously. But, having seen the full end-to-end integration in both of your diphenol legs, so what is the way forward for expanding your business that you're looking at? The first is, of course, we need to scale up the Camlin business, right? Yeah. Which is a, it's a, you know, couple of years process, purely from a market perspective, not from a production side, but it's more market driven. So of course, our focus would necessarily be on that business. As well as there are certain downstreams, since we have capacities for ramping up our hydroquinone and catechol, and there are certain downstream products of hydroquinone, which we are working on, and we've kind of started introducing new products in the market in the last one year. And those products will get scaled up in the next two to three years. So the idea is, first focus on this. Finally, like I mentioned earlier, that in the blend we are focusing on new categories, and we have several new categories of products that, that we are now taking on a global level. So we had very good position, say, in Mexico or in Brazil or in Latin America or Central America, which now those product categories that we've got expertise on, we're bringing it to the other markets, and we're trying to scale it up, on a global level. So those opportunities are significant, potential. And, and so you will see, you know, growth coming on that side, and you will see growth coming from the downstreams, scaling up of the downstreams. Okay. But led by this co-promoters with agreement, whether this is adding anything to this vertical segue? Because this is, that has been known. Right. So of course, what adds with the co-promoter is that their network on a global level, which is significant, and gives us access to some of these networks, which otherwise is not so, you know, so easily available. I think that's where the big value add it comes. The second big value add for management of the business is, you know, long-term thinking and long-term strategy on creating value. And which today, with a robust promoter holding, it gives us the stability for the long term, where the co-promoters are committed to investing further, if required, or if it's not required, to help and sustain the business, as we've kind of worked out the model. Okay. My next question is on the related question on the blends. So blends seems the fastest growing segment at this moment for Camlin. And the potential-wise, it is quite significant, that is well known. But that is also a kind of global business with having greater, greater business potential in U.S. as well as Europe. And I think we have seen some success in the Latin America as well as U.S., but Europe still is a kind of at the early stage of our business penetration that we are there. So can we have any direct benefit coming from the AvH for this vertical? Yes, absolutely. And that's something that we are looking forward to, because we are very well placed in Belgium, and Belgium is really for these kind of businesses. Belgium is, I would say, the center of excellence in Belgium. There are a lot of consumers, I mean, our customers as well as competitors in the business who are located there. So I think there's a lot that we can work together with AvH to scale up our European business. Okay. And the extended question again here, sir, linking to your health and wellness business. So ultimately, the biggest market even for the the EPA and the DHA kind of product vertical. So Europe is the biggest market, and see, we have obviously acquired capability by acquiring AlgalR some time back, but whether this is coming to the forefront with strong promoter space now that we are having, and can this be a kind of a dominant driving piece for us going ahead? So, it's a very difficult question to answer in that sense, because, the products are actually sold across the world for sure. Europe is a significant market, no doubt about that. U.S. and Europe would be two significant markets for these products. The question is, one is scalability. So we are working on that side from a, from a production side. You know, how do we scale? How do we build, you know, a bigger capacity? And, look at them saying that, you know, which markets are potentially, for us, easier, so to say, to enter into. Of course, the most difficult markets would be Europe and U.S., because there are established competitors who are, you know, from that region, for, for, you know, for the last 10 -15 years, they've been in this business. So, for us, what we are looking at in the first phase is to see where we have the low-hanging fruit, which is where in some geographies where we think we have a good potential market, and we're focusing on those. Of course, at the same time, parallelly, it's not that we're not looking at U.S. or Europe. You know, that continues. Then, of course, with the help of the co-promoters and their network, the distributors and other, you know, other networks that they have, I think there is an opportunity there. Okay. And this last one, so see here, do you really find scope of inorganic growth for your business? Because, see, the last two acquisitions, what we have done, those were of strategic nature and to complete your end-to-end integration, your existing operations. But having achieved the end-to-end integration there, do you really see scope of inorganic growth in the, in your existing business or a kind of allied business that you can think about? See, it's weird. We are. You know, what we've done is we are probably basic in the sense that our own blending units and manufacturing and sales and labs, we are in about five locations worldwide, and those are for those specific markets and countries. So those opportunities, if we get as we go along for different geographies, is of course, something that we look at, because when you start from scratch, which in, whether it is Brazil or the U.S., greenfield always takes a long, long time to reach a certain size and scale. So, you know, we keep evaluating and seeing if there is an opportunity, if you can get to size and scale very quickly in a geography, that's something that we look at. But, I mean, acquisitions for, you know, just for the sake of, gaining market share, not necessarily. So it's more to, to get a, you know, to get a platform and to be ready, a ready platform which can help you scale up quickly. That's the kind of acquisition we look at. And of course, if there's a new product category which is allied to what we are doing and very close to what we are doing, and there's some technology or something which gives us, an opportunity, we'll keep looking at that. Okay. Okay. Sure, sir. Yeah. Thank you. Wish you all the best. Thank you. Do you have any follow-up questions? No, thank you. Thank you. Next question is from the line of Jatin from Burman Capital. Please go ahead. Thanks for taking my question. I had, I have two questions. One is on heliotropin. So we had plans to convert our plant in China to manufacture heliotropin, but we were waiting for certain approval. So I wanted to know the update, where is the process and how soon can we expect the operations in China to go, start? My second question is on Lockheed Martin. We keep mentioning about our opportunity with Lockheed Martin, so I wanted to understand how big this opportunity can be. So on the first question, heliotropin, we are in the process of getting the approval in China. There was some change of policy that had happened in China, which had delayed the approval process, but now it's kind of clarified and we are back on going through the approval. In terms of timelines, I think three to four quarters is what we expect, this you know, finally to get all of these going. So that's the first part. The second part on Lockheed Martin, as it's in public domain, they're installing in the next few months their first commercial scale battery. Thereafter, of course, the size of the market is quite large, and the opportunity can be significant, based on, of course, based on the success of their technology and their battery. But the expectation is that in the next three to five years, we should be able to get a sizable growth on this product, along with Lockheed. Thank you. Thank you. Next question is from the line of Rahil Jasani from Accelpru. Please go ahead. The line for the participant dropped. We move on to the next participant. Next question is from the line of Abbas from InCred Capital. Please go ahead. Hi, sir. Thank you for taking my question. So on export front, how is scaling up for this year? Or can you provide any guidelines for the second half year, 2024? Sorry, I mentioned earlier that we can't make any forward-looking statements because we are in that period, so unfortunately, we can't give any guidance. Okay. But broadly, we have said that we grow as we have mentioned earlier. Good. Thank you. Thank you. Next follow-up question is from the line of Ravi Mehta from Deep Financial. Please go ahead. Yeah, hi. Thanks for this opportunity. Just a follow-up on the blends business. So I've seen the growth being very consistent, and it's the second time we are seeing a step jump in the blends quarterly run rate of sales. And, in Q1, it was growth across all geographies, Mexico, Brazil, and U.S. So, probably partly you answered in one of the earlier question that you are introducing new products. I just wanted to get some sense on, how the strategy is panning out and, whether was there any one-off or pent-up, or this is kind of a new normal, a new step change, and which will, you know, sustain for a few more quarters, and then we can keep seeing these kind of jumps in cohorts of four, five quarters. Yeah. So essentially, what we are seeing is, in all the geographies, it's the growth that has happened, seems to be sustainable. It's doesn't seem like it, it would be one-off or for a few quarters. We expect that some of the businesses that we've got, will open some further, opportunities for us, in the markets. And, you know, we are hoping and, working towards, seeing that we can even grow further from where we are, very quickly in the next couple of quarters. Okay, sure. And a very remarkable jump in the U.S., in the Q, and like, the sales were over INR 60 crores, not seen before. So, these are the new, probably entry that you are getting into these markets. So just wanted to understand from a strategy point of view, whether there is a, you know, entry, entering strategy of keeping the margins low to get into an account and then probably work on margins, or these are, you know, quite remunerative market by itself, or maybe some color on, growth versus margin thought process. So, I mean, the U.S. is a very competitive market, of course. It's very large and very competitive. So our strategy in the U.S. is not necessarily cost-driven. It's also service-driven and also driven by our new ways of addressing old problems for our customers. So I would say that, broadly, the growth on top line will also. I mean, the bottom line also will grow along with that. It's not necessarily that we are selling very cheap or we are trying to cut price, you know, price in the market. So to really answer your question, yes, in the U.S., I mean, we've got entry into a few big customers. I think the momentum is good, and that we should be able to, you know, try and get some new businesses as well. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Next follow-up question is from the line of Rohit Sinha from Sunidhi Securities and Finance. Please go ahead. Yeah, thank you for the follow-up. Some of my questions were already answered. Just one thing on this, extended plant shutdown you have taken in Europe, right? Just to understand how the market has reacted in terms of, in terms of price and demand, in the earlier announcement and, which we have, we have extended it. So is there any kind of change in the prices or, how demand has been? The prices have not really significantly changed, even after we've announced it. And I think the demand remains where it was. We had some stock. We built up stock, also for ibuprofen and some stock of catechol, which of course will get liquidated in this quarter and in the next quarter. So in terms of... To answer your question, in terms of pricing, I don't see there's an immediate impact as of now. But again, depends on what happens in China, how things pan out there and, you know, the market pans out there. I think it's too early to even hazard a guess on what kind of pricing impacts we still have. So we'll have to wait and watch. Thank you very much. So the line for the participant dropped. Ladies and gentlemen, due to time constraint, that will be the last question. I now hand the conference over to the management for closing comments. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for being with us on this conference call. Thank you very much, Harsha and John-Eric, for taking the time out and being with us. We appreciate it. I look forward to meeting and talking to all of you on the next call for the next quarter. Thank you. Thank you very much. On behalf of Camlin Fine Sciences Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us. You may now disconnect your lines. Thank you.