Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to eMudhra Limited Q3 FY 2024 earnings conference call, hosted by IIFL Institutional Equities Limited. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen-only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star then zero on your touchtone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Saurabh Thadani from IIFL Institutional Equities. Thank you, and over to you, sir. Thank you, Yusuf. Good evening, everyone. Thanks for joining us today on the Q3 FY 2024 earnings call of eMudhra Limited. On behalf of IIFL Institutional Equities, I would like to thank the management of eMudhra for giving us the opportunity to host this call. Today, we have with us on the call Mr. Venkataraman Srinivasan, Executive Chairman; Mr. Ritesh Raj Paryani, Chief Financial Officer; Mr. Kaushik Srinivasan, Senior Vice President, Product Development; and Mr. Arvind Srinivasan, Senior Vice President, International Sales and Strategy. I will hand over the call to Mr. Venkataraman Srinivasan to give the opening remarks and take the proceedings forward. Thank you, and over to you, sir. Yes, thank you, Saurabh. Thanks to all of you for joining this conference call. A warm welcome to our Q3 FY 2024 earnings conference call. I'm happy to address you today and share our quarterly results. I'm pleased to announce that we have delivered robust performance with significant growth in all the metrics. Our total income increased by 59.5% on a year-on-year basis, accompanied by growth at 26.9% and 30.1% in EBITDA and PAT margins respectively. In Q3 FY 2024, we had a significant expansion in the international markets, supported by wins across various regions, driven by increased demand for our cybersecurity solutions. We saw an increased interest in our offerings in North American markets, particularly in the cybersecurity and paperless office sectors. The acquisition of Ikon Tech Services remains beneficial, creating opportunities for cross-selling within their customer base in sectors such as education, oil and gas, and financial services. Additionally, there was a sustained momentum in deals within the MEA markets, where we are engaged in projects related to e-government and DS State, focusing on the implementation of technology solutions encompassing Digital Public Infrastructure, Zero Trust, and paperless transformation. In India, there was continued demand for paperless office solutions, supported by eSign plus e-stamping for onboarding in capital markets and banking. There was also an increase in use of our tax authority and authentication access management platform in e-government, reflecting a push towards transitioning to Zero Trust. Regarding trust services, prices for token-based digital signatures remain steady, with volumes and growth aligning with historical trends. The SSL business is experiencing increased activity due to the outreach efforts to our enterprise clients and through our large partner network. To significantly strengthen our current product capabilities, we have begun investing in research and development for post-quantum cryptography. This investment aims to develop keys and certificates that are quantum-proof. Additionally, we are conducting R&D in the area of mobile PKI infrastructure, enabling the issue of digital signature certificates to mobile devices. This can potentially open more use cases for secure authentication opportunities in sectors like banking and e-governance. Furthermore, we are investing in R&D for fully homomorphic encryption, a type of encryption method for searching encrypted data. This has various potential applications in data protection and privacy, especially in scenarios where personally identifiable information requires encryption while still being searchable. We are confident that these ongoing investments will enhance our product range and expand our reach, which will yield positive results in the forthcoming quarters. Key project wins: rollout of public key infrastructure, authentication, and access management solutions for a defense agency. Implementation of private PKI for consent of certificates for a mid-sized IT firm in the U.S. Rollout of e-signature platform for a large urban development company in Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Rollout of e-signature platform for paperless transformation of customs authority in the Middle East. Upgradation of e-signature platform for success authority and single window operator in West Africa. Rollout of e-sign for bank officials of a large public sector bank for digitally signed approvals to enhance transparency. Other business highlights: certification of emSigner for SAP SuccessFactors for easy signing of HR onboarding documents, listing of emSign on AWS and Azure Marketplace for easy consumption of SSL certificates by customers already using these platforms. Use of generative AI in driving significant efficiency in customer responses via our email channel for our business signature customers. So these are the highlights. Now, I request Mr. Ritesh Raj Pariyani, our CFO, to take us through the financial performance of the company. Thank you, Chairman. Good afternoon, everyone. I hope you are all doing good. Let me begin with by sharing the headline numbers of quarter three, financial year 2024. We are pleased to announce that our revenue from operations in quarter three, financial year 2024, amounted to INR 973.8 million, a year-on-year growth of 59%. The growth was primarily driven by the sales in the overseas market. There was a rise in the enterprise solution segment, which generated a revenue of INR 745 million, reflecting a year-on-year growth of 90.1%, while the trust services revenue grew by 3.6% year-on-year to INR 228 million. The operational revenue of nine months, financial year 2024, was at INR 2,734.3 billion, representing a year-on-year growth of 59%. In quarter 3, financial year 2024, EBITDA rose to INR 267.5 million, a 19.6% increase year-on-year, with a margin of 26.9%. Net profits reached INR 200.1 million, up by 31.6% year-on-year, with a margin of 20.1%. For nine months, financial year 2024, EBITDA stood at INR 801.9 million, with a margin of 29%, and net profit was INR 551.5 million, with a margin of 19.9%. Despite increased spending on IT research, branding, and marketing, our EBITDA and PAT margins remain stable. Thank you. Yeah. We hand over to Q&A itself for further proceed. Thank you very much. We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on the attached telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use handset while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we'll wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. First question is from the line of Parth Agarwal from Systematix Institutional Equities. Please go ahead. Hi. Thank you for the opportunity. My question was regarding the international business. You know, last quarter we mentioned that, you know, we were searching around INR 45 crore of revenue for a few quarters in the international business, and from there, you know, we see a good growth. But, in this quarter itself, we are going to move from INR 45 crore-INR 55 crore of revenue. Just wanted to ask which, you know, this INR 55 crore of revenue generated for the quarter is sustainable or it's something one-off? Yeah. No, we feel it is sustainable because it is wide, but it is not from a single geography or a single customer. It is across the board, across Middle East and Africa, and also in the U.S. and everything. So that's why it is sustainable. Maybe a little bit here and there could be there, but generally, we feel it is really sustainable. What is the enterprise business order book currently? Generally, order book, we are only giving in year-end, but, order book growth, generally is good. Almost it is 35%-40% growth we have achieved in the order book compared to March as of December. Okay. Okay, got it. Thank you. My one question, one another question is, you know, we have been international expansion, and that is certainly reflected in our revenue growth obviously. But my question is, whether this growth is coming at a cost of sustainable margin? Because is it possible that, you know, going forward, whenever, you know, couple of years down the line, once we are, you know, established ourselves in the international market and we want to improve our margin, will our growth get hampered that time? My only concern is that are we getting the good amount of business in the international business, international market, by undercutting our competition? What was the question? You are asking, growth is at the cost of what? I didn't get the percentage. In the international business, the growth that we have, is it at the cost of margin or are we undercutting our competition there in terms of cost? No, a little bit we have to undercut only; otherwise, why would somebody come to us? So generally, we go 20%-30% cheaper compared to competition, because we are at a penetration stage. That is number one. The second thing is, we also have to invest in marketing, branding, partner, many things in the international market, because we are new players there. So that's what we have been telling, that some of the profitability we will always reinvest in the growth, but also at the same time, balance between the growth and the profitability to ensure in the current year around, we maintain around 29%-30% EBITDA margin and 20% profit margin. So in line with that only, we are going ahead. Okay. In the domestic enterprise business, there was, you know, margin contraction as well as de-growth. Can you just share your insight on that? No, the margin contraction is, if you see this, this time, two abnormal items are there. One is the write-off of land. About four years back, we got a 100-year lease of a land in Salem from the ELCOT, which is the Electronics Corporation of Tamil Nadu. So that land, we thought from there we will create the disaster recovery site, the data center, and all that thing, and also do the international operation from there. But then because of the later we found that the 200 Mbps line was not available to connect our main center with the disaster recovery site. So that plan could not materialize, and we had to create the disaster recovery site in Chennai. So with the result, this land was handed over back, but before doing that, we earlier, so 3-4 years back, we had already done some site development fencing and all that. So almost INR 1-5 crore had to be written off, where we handed the land back to ELCOT. So this is one of the thing. And the other thing is for the US market development, we had spent some, 2-3 crore of, marketing. So this marketing bills relating to 1-2 quarters, it came at that time in, in the current quarter. So both put together, there was a one-time expenditure of almost, 3-4 crore. So because of that one-time expenditure, only the EBITDA margin came down to 39.6%. If these are adjusted, it is almost at 29.5%. The degrowth in the Enterprise India business, what is the reason for the degrowth in India? Degrowth in India Enterprise business, because in India, Enterprise business, if you see, predominantly it is coming from the public sector and the government agencies and all that. In that lot of time, we are bidding along with the hardware and software, and then, and quite a bit of the receivable is also in that business. So since the receivable is going high, we are consciously planning whether we should bid for the hardware or we should only focus on software. So in that, we are gradually trying to focus more and more on the software rather than on a total turnkey project. So that is one of the item of the thing. And the other thing is the realization is also very low in the Indian market. Compared to the foreign market, in the Indian market, even if you take a e-signature, e-signature realization is for INR 5. On INR 5, some INR 3.5 goes to Aadhaar, and net realization is INR 1.5. So business per se is growing, but from a value perspective, the growth is not that significant like in the international market. Okay. And sir, we want this SSL and emDiscovery sometime back. So how is the response in the market for those products? For the SSL and TLS? Yeah, SSL. emDiscovery. Yeah, emDiscovery response is good. Even Kaushik met a lot of customers in U.S. and all that. I will request him to brief about that. Sure. We've got quite a few wins in the SSL, TLS, and emDiscovery. One, of course, a large banks, and we have a stock exchange in India, and some private sector clients. More interestingly, in North America also, recently, we one IT company is using for private PKI. We also have users across automotive industry. So there's quite a bit of demand in the global markets for emDiscovery, as more and more enterprises are transitioning to this Zero Trust, and this PKI is becoming integrated to the transition. Okay. Just a final question from mine. So can you explain the tax expense, because the effective tax rate is around 2-3% this quarter? Thanks. No, tax, because we got the minimum in tax in this quarter, because that earlier, if you see as part of the original IPO, there were three products. That is the, this remote signing, then the IoT product, and then the, this certificate discovery product. So all these products, after final test run and final implementation, we capitalized in this quarter. And when-- because these are all software products, we get almost 40% depreciation, from the tax perspective. So because of that, we could get some, good amount of tax depreciation. That's why this quarter, the tax provision is lower. Is it expected to remain lower in quarter four as well, or it will normalize? Quarter four. Quarter four will probably normalize. Yeah, yeah, quarter four, more, more, it'll normalize. Okay. Thank you so much, and best of luck for the future quarter. Thank you. Next question is from the line of Rishi Maheshwari from Aksa Capital. Please go ahead. Thanks for the opportunity. So I think given the circumstances of how the IT industry has been doing, you've done a fairly good job. Congratulations on that. My question was that to understand the enterprise customers, last year quarter, you had reported, 910 global and 10 Indian customers. Whereas this quarter reporting structure, I think, has changed, and the total number of customers you reported is 910. So from a total of about 1,000 customers, the customer on the enterprise side has seems to have reduced by to 910. Am I reading it correctly, or these are these are some of the customers who just come and goes out, and therefore, there is not much to read into it? No, no. Customers has not reduced, but actually what is happening, once you have a large base of customers, further orders keep on coming from those customers only. So that's where addition of new customers, the rate at which the new customers are added is very less, but I think reduced- It is not reduced, and of course, I mean, we are also focusing on, you know, more larger value customers over a period of time. So it's not really reduced from that perspective, but more repeat orders are coming from- Yeah - the existing set of customers. So that's a very point, I think, I was trying to hop onto the same point again, by, in my follow-up question. But, you know, per revenue, per customer seems to be extremely low at this point in time. It will be between $25,000-$35,000. My sense is that this is not very remunerative, if in case this is... If you continue increasing the volume versus increasing the depth in, enhancing the value of each customer. Now, I'm sure this is how you've just explained in your previous answer as well. If you can highlight, you know, what is the potential that generally when you, when you pitch to a customer, what is the kind of potential that you see in each customer's wallet share? What is the... For instance, whenever IT companies usually look at any of these services implementation, they usually look at between the range, even smaller companies, which is between the range of 5 and to about $500,000 to about $1 million kind of range. For any customer that they want to pitch that, effectively, you've to correlate that with the how, how much is the marketing spend, the time spent on, acquiring each customer. How do you think you have thought about- Generally, you are talking about the IT services industry. In IT services industry, now let's say I penetrate a customer, and the customer is using 50 of my resources. So then that 50 resource continue to be 50 resource, 50 resource or 30 resource, like that little bit it changes, so continuously it does that. And if it's from 100 resource, then it becomes a larger customer and all that. For us, what is happening is we are mainly into the product business. In the product business, the same customer may not again and again ask. Earlier, several time explained there are two components: one is the licensing revenue and the other thing is the AMC revenue and other thing, and the cloud related revenue. And the cloud revenue is not very high in the Indian and the Asian market, so it is predominantly license revenue. So every time new customer comes, though the 900 customers are there, all the customers may be using all of them may not be using in the current quarter, and some of them may be paying AMC in the current quarter, and a few of them may be buying license in the current quarter. So that's why the current quarter revenue or the current year revenue, by dividing 900 or 920, we may not be able to arrive at any meaningful analysis out of that. So that's where we have to see what is the license revenue. And in each license revenue, if we are able to get INR 1.5 crore or in foreign geography, maybe INR 2-4 crore, it is a worthwhile opportunity to chase. Out of that, again, 20, 20% AMC will come from them in the future. Also, whenever we license, we license for a specific number of users or specific number of servers and all that, so when that way they expand, there will be further revenue growth. So this is slightly different from the IT services model, where it is all the number of people based on which you are billing. Sure, sure, sure. Thanks for the detailed answer. I also want to hop on understanding the growth trajectory going ahead. You know, you mentioned that the order book growth is expected to be or has continued to be at 35%-40%. Do we see that revenue will also grow at more or less the same rate going ahead in, say, FY 2025 and FY 2026? Oh, this year, as we have several times told, we are expecting around INR 360 crore level, which will be almost a little over 40%. That is for the FY 2023-2024. 2024-2025, we have still not made a detailed estimate because the strategy meeting and other things has to be, has to be done. But still we feel around 30% growth is, should be possible. When maintaining the 30% aspirational margin that you had earlier alluded to. Is that right? Yes, yes, correct. Well, this margin had some component, as you mentioned, some one-off of ESOP charges. Will we continue to have these ESOP charges as the ESOP gets exercised in the years ahead as well? ESOP charges will continue because it is exercisable over four-year exercising, so whatever we are granting for that, the ESOP charge will happen. But actually it is not a charge. All the shares are in the trust from the trust it is all of them. Because of the accounting standard, it is debited to profit and loss account and credited to reserve directly. There is no liability on this thing, so that's why. And there is no dilution also. There is no further dilution of share capital, but our auditors have been taking that view that it has to be done, so that we are doing. Because the dilution has also already happened. Sure, sure, sure. All right, sir. Thank you very much for your time. All the best. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Next question is from the line of Parikshit Kabra from Pkeday Advisors LLP. Please go ahead. Hi, and thank you for this opportunity, and congratulations on the results. I just- Thank you. I wanted to first check. So just mentioned that 360 was the guidance for this year. I was wondering if you want to update that guidance, because that would imply that in Q4, your growth would only be about 13% year-on-year. So now that we are coming towards the end game of this, like, you know, this financial year, I was wondering if you want to update that guidance. We don't want to update, but maybe 10% less can be there. Because already we are INR 270, in the INR 270, if we do another, whatever, like the current quarter also it may go to INR 370 or something. But for that, we don't want to upgrade the guidance already. Okay. Okay, sir. No, because every quarter this year we have grown at 50% plus, and so overall guidance of 40% plus implies the same. But okay, and you don't want to update your guidance, you don't want to update. That's fine. Fair enough. Next thing I wanted to understand was how is the U.S. market coming along? Yeah, I know we have been trying to figure out our product market fit and trying to build up the momentum in the U.S. market, so I just wanted to see how things have progressed in the last quarter. Well, it has progressed very well. Some 8, 9 discussions or maybe even more than 10 discussions are also taking place on both the end seller side, as well as on the PTI side. So maybe Kaushik may be able to- Some deal wins also happened- some meetings with the potential customers. Yeah, and some deal wins also happened both on the end seller side as well as for, you know, PKI. We see a lot of traction both for private PKI use cases because in U.S., unlike the federal model, it's all communities of trust. So healthcare is a separate sort of requirement, banking and all that. Despite there's, you know, good amount of positive momentum going into next year in the U.S. market, we've also got the right set of people on the ground, including, you know, Scott, who is a veteran in the PKI space, and he's also been sort of helping, you know, steer at some of these discussions. right. So would I be right in saying that product-market fit for the US market is almost just maybe a couple of quarters away now? It doesn't work like that because you are constantly innovating and competing with other players who are also constantly innovating. So it's always a question of, you know, you have a few capabilities, you are going after specific segments with those capabilities- -And then how do you go on specializing, right? So it's not a, you know, a binary point where you just say that we are ready and then therefore things will start, you know, flowing, right? So it's more a question of, you know, assessing the market, figuring out your strengths, and then going with a specific strategy, which is what we're trying to do. All right. All right. On other news, I know that you have closed your QIP, or at least partially closed your QIP, so congratulations on that. Wanted to inquire, is that money going to be used to fund working capital or, or you know, as per your initial guidance, that this might be used for some kind of a strategic acquisition? Which way are you seeing the utilization of funds now? Yeah, both, because if you see our offer document, one is for the U.S. growth in U.S. working capital, because the U.S. market is growing fast, so we need working capital funding in U.S., so that is one objective. The other main objective is the acquisition, and one more objective is the... We have told about the three product, you know, Post-Quantum Cryptography, Fully Homomorphic Encryption, and the mobile PKI, so on the software investment type, right? Some of them we have reserved for the general corporate purposes, which can be used for any purpose, which is more flexible. Okay. So between the unbilled revenue and, you know, the trade pay, the receivables that you have. First of all, let me just verify that the unbilled revenue and receivables will mostly be for the enterprise business and not so much for the trust business. Is that a fair assumption? Correct, correct, correct. Correct? So when I add those numbers up and I look at the enterprise revenue, then it seems like, if the trailing twelve months revenue of enterprise business, 80% of that is actually captured in receivables plus unbilled revenue. So our working capital requirement seems very high, and at the rate at which we are growing the enterprise business, I would wonder whether we will end up using all of this money in working capital itself, you know, just to make sure that we are growing as the opportunities arise. No, no, no. I think some calculation could be wrong. For example, if you take quarterly revenue of around INR 100 crore. On that, you give trust service of INR 20 crore. INR 20-22 crore trust service. The balance, the enterprise revenue is around INR 80 crore. That is in one quarter. Yes. So, the unbilled revenue and the services y ou are saying 80%. No, 80% of, so the receivable itself will be 70%-80% of one quarter revenue, and the unbilled revenue may be less than one quarter, maybe two-month revenue or three-month revenue. It should not be 80% of yearly revenue. Okay. Okay. So, the numbers I have was only from the previous quarter, because, of course, this quarter numbers are not released, and- Even then, it was around, I think, both put together could be some INR 140 crore or something like that, but still it is both- Approximately, uh. So that way, if you see, on 370, if you reduce 100, it will be 270. On 270, 150 will be maybe around 6.5 months kind of thing. Correct. 6.5 months again include the GST and all these things. So when we eliminate GST, if you calculate the time, it may be 6 months. But even our, our enterprise implementation cycle itself is 4-5 months, so unbilled revenue of around 2-3 months is a normal unbilled revenue. Mm-hmm. That is sundry debtors, and sundry debtors are also predominantly due to large number of government projects- Mm-hmm. where the hardware money and also the software money takes a longer time to realize. Mm-hmm. That is it. It is not 80% of the annual revenue. Okay. Okay. No, I... Okay, no problem. That's fine. All right, and so is it possible for you to provide the international revenue number split between North America and the rest? No, that we are not yet providing that way. Maybe at some point we may take a conscious call to see whether geography is, because then, yeah. All right. All right. Thank you, sir. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Before we move to the next question, a reminder to the participants, anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one. Next question is from the line of Rajvi Palladia from Svan Investment Managers. Please go ahead. Hello. Yeah, actually, my question has been answered. Thank you. Okay, thanks. Thank you. We have our next question from the line of Mr. Saurabh Thadani from IIFL Institutional Equities. Please go ahead. Yeah, thank you for the opportunity, and congrats on the strong performance. The first question I had was, we've announced multiple deals in the non-U.S. international markets in the current quarter. Can you just talk about the trends we are seeing in some of those markets, particularly the likes of Middle East? Yeah. So across, Middle East, Africa, and now also, you know, Asia Pacific, we are, you know, being invited to participate in a number of projects relating to this digital public infrastructure, which is what we've implemented in India around identity, signatures, and you know, all of this. And in Middle East, Africa particularly, more traction is happening even on the cybersecurity side. We already have substantial amount of penetration in the Paperless Office. So across the board, across industries, as the wave sort of increases, both for going paperless as well as from a cybersecurity perspective, we think, you know, we're starting to see a number of traction in various industries. We are already quite deeply penetrated in the Middle East and banking, but other industries are also starting to see traction. Got it. The next question I had was, on the margin side. I think over the last few quarters we've been investing, to drive growth, first on the sales and marketing side. This quarter also, we had, some of those costs kind of come in. Just want to get a better sense in terms of our outlook, in terms of margins, both in the near as well as the medium term. The near, medium is near term, up to next one year, we hope we will be able to maintain this 30% EBITDA margin and 20% profit margin. The medium term of over one year, we do not know, because how the competition will evolve, whether what should happen and all, it is too early to predict. So at least next one year, we feel this could be maintained. Got it. The last question I have is on the digital trust services side, on the competitive intensity there. Over the last couple of quarters, we've called out that we've seen price stabilization. Any update in terms of, competitive intensity? Have you seen some of the players, not being able to survive, or how is that generally, going around? No, all of them are still there and still supplying. Now, almost it is 10. Earlier, only four competitors were there. Now, almost 10 competitors are there. But still they are there. But our—we had even earlier pronounced that we will get only 15% growth, and that's what we are getting. Got it. Thank you. That's it from my side. Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one. Next question is from the line of Nitin Sharma from MC Pro Research. Please go ahead. Yeah, hi, thanks for taking my question. To start with, where do you see your India business growing over the medium term? India business. Now, what is the- what was your question? India business? Yeah. So geography-wise, this quarter had a decline in the India business. So over the medium term, how we should see it growing, at what rate? Now, India trust service business, we have earlier told it to grow around 15% per year. The India enterprise business, consciously, what is happening is the main receivable and the annual revenue are higher in that business. And it is the bank, the government component in that business is higher, so and we were bidding along with the hardware, software, everything. So now we are taking a conscious call to see how we can reduce this and all that. So if we want to do that, we may not have to bid for hardware, we have to bid only for our software and all that. So with the result, there may be it may not have the same level of growth. It could also end up in 15%-20% growth India enterprise business. Understood. Overall growth, we will maintain because of the international business. Understood. Is it possible for you to break down the overseas market growth? No. One more thing, in international business, the realizations are much better. So if we put the same level of resources in international business, our profitability and top line both are better. So that is another reason for our more focus on the international. So, is it a number in your head, in terms of how much, what percentage of business you would want your to come from overseas market? Because that has been consistently coming down for the last over the years. The focus is, of course, you know, there is no fixed number. Over time, the international business will, of course, you know, be more than the India business over a shorter and over a medium term. Already that's become 50-50%. Over time, any technology company, generally, you see, the international business become 80%, 88% of the overall business, in any technology company. Understood. Next question. Is it possible for you to break down the overseas market growth rate by country on nine months basis? The line is not audible. Yeah. Can you please break down the 9 growth rate for over countries within the overseas territory on 9-month basis? How much we have grown year-on-year for the 9 months? Territory-wise, you said? Yeah. Territory-wise, that's why we are not segregating up to now. Okay. Okay. Territory-wise, the main territories are only U.S. and Middle East, Africa. Europe and all, little bit only. Our penetration is not that deep, so still we may not have come to a level where we have to analyze each territory-wise and then go that way. So that's why we have not been doing it until now. Understood. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one. Participant, you may press star and one to ask a question. We have our next follow-up question from the line of Parikshit Kabra from MK Ventures. Please go ahead. Hi. I just wanted to quickly clarify the difference between adjusted EBITDA and EBITDA this quarter. Was it just a matter of ESOPs or was it something else? No, no, we told two items. No, one is the ESOP, and the other is the, that, one-time write-off of land, what we had. Okay. Also. You mentioned that. Sorry. Yeah. Thank you. Yes. Thank you. Participant, to ask the question, you may press star and one. Next question is from the line of Anupam Jain from Professional Investor. Please go ahead. Hello? Hello. Yeah. Yeah, sir. So my question is: what is the TAM for the Zero Trust business? So TAM, as per various global research agencies, and several tens of $ billions, but of course, that is a very large addressable market. It's very nascent and growing. There is no specific third-party research on our segment, but which is also equally large, possibly in, you know, a few $ billion, right? So we are still a relatively small percentage, and that is why, you know, the growth opportunity that, you know, we are sort of, you know, estimating there. What are the revenue target that you are targeting from this, this business particularly? Any, any guidance would be good. Any rough guidance. Overall, that is what, you know, highlighted by our chairman. If you maintain that growth of about 30%, right? Yeah. In this segment, any- This is hardly related to enterprise, so trust is growing at 15. You know, you can extrapolate the potential growth from the other areas. It should grow much faster, so. Okay. So that should grow at 50%? Sorry? That should grow at 50%. Fifteen, fifteen. Because the industry research estimate done in the- It will not grow at 50. Okay, okay. Sorry, sorry. Thank you. Have a good night. Thank you. Next question is from the line of Rishit Parikh from Nippon India Mutual Fund. Please go ahead. Hi. Am I audible, right? Yes, you are audible. Please go ahead. So I've got a couple of questions, right? So one, I think you've talked about sort of investing in R&D into the newer products, right? I think Quantum PKI is one, and I think there's a shift towards that sort, right? So we want to understand how does this sort of expand your addressable market? Do you see that you've got ability to cross-sell these products into your existing customers? Is that something that your customers are demanding for? I mean, how does the development of these products come into shape, and you know, just help us understand what is the addressable market, and does the growth number that you talk about 25%-30%, does it include these two products, or this is just extra that? You see, these products are related to cybersecurity area only. These are not in a completely different area. But if you take the post-quantum cryptography gradually in the defense and other thing, they are already anticipating it, and they already want which company will have. And gradually, over time, we feel in most of the RFPs it will be there, and if you do not have it, you may not get qualified for the, for bidding in that RFP at all. So that way, it becomes an integral part of the cybersecurity solution and PKI solution. Same way, if you see mobile PKI, mobile PKI, lot of countries have already law covering mobile PKI. India, it is not there, but the Ministry of IT is very actively working on it, and they feel instead of storing this in crypto token, the digital signature in crypto token, it can be stored in mobile, and from there it should be authenticated. So that way, maybe within some few months itself, this from Ministry of IT, such regulations can come if it has to be done in the mobile PKI. So that's an anticipation we are doing. And the other need is the homomorphic encryption. This also need comes more from the defense and that kind of establishment. So these are all necessary when you say you are a cybersecurity player. Beyond that, little more technology, Kaushik also can explain. Yeah, so the need for these products, I mean, one, of course, from client feedback, like in terms of what is the future, and also IT research communities that are basically looking at cybersecurity trends for the next, you know, 3, 5 years. You know, folks like Gartner, Forrester, IDC. And as a consequence, our own internal sort of assessment of what we should prioritize in terms of being able to position ourself superior to competition, right? So that's really how we started embarking on these products and identify these things. These will offer immediate cross-selling opportunities into our existing customer base itself, because most of them, some of them, are using our platform. They have to go into the next level of, you know, cybersecurity readiness, quantum, you know, sort of, compliance, et cetera, which are forced, one, by government mandate, which will also then percolate to sectoral mandates, right? So, so that's really the genesis on why we decided to do R&D on these three areas, because they are aligned, offer, you know, potential to cross-sell into our existing customers and upsell into our existing customers. Okay, thank you. And just two more questions right on this one. Does this sort of also... Are you in complete conversations with your clients in the U.S., or this is largely to do with India, some of the government agencies that we talked about? Across the conversations with clients in the U.S., conversations with clients even in APAC, we'd likely to do a mobile PKI roll out for a very large country in, you know, the Asia Pacific, conversations in the Middle East, as well as, you know, some of these governments in Africa itself. Okay. And when you talk about the 25%-30% growth, does it include these two products, or this is these two products only, and then as and when you get a PoC or contract for development? No, as of now, 30% include these products, not incrementally. As we go along, we have to see, because generally, I don't want to say something and not achieve that. So that's where we are extremely cautious while saying something. Okay, absolutely. You've got a timeline by which these products will be, sort of, up for market, where you'll start marketing it out, or are you already started doing it? Almost 1 year. By before March 25, we have to implement all these products. We've already started work, entire specifications have been drafted, then the process of approaching is there for the routine development. All these are happening already. Perfect. That's all I have. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one. As there are no further questions from the participant, I would now like to hand the conference over to the management for the closing comments. I would like to thank everybody for joining the call. I hope we have been able to address all your questions. For any further information, kindly get in touch with our investor relation advisors. Thank you once again, and have a great day. Thank you. Thank you. On behalf of IIFL Institutional Equities Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you all for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.