Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to Greenlam Industries Limited, Q1 FY 2025 earnings conference call. This conference call may contain forward-looking statements about the company, which are based on the beliefs, opinions, and expectations of the company as of the date of this call. These statements are not the guarantees of future performance and involve risks and uncertainties that are difficult to predict. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen-only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star, then zero on your touch-tone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Saurabh Mittal, Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer, Greenlam Industries Limited. Thank you, and over to you, Mr. Mittal. Thank you. Good afternoon, friends. Welcome to our earnings call of Q1 FY 2025. I'm joined by Ashok, CFO, Samarth from the finance team, and SGA, our investor relations advisor. You probably have had a look at the results available on the exchange and the company's website. I'll give a quick update on how the quarter went and the challenges we faced and the opportunities we see. Q1, on the revenue side, we've grown about 17.5, 17.4% more precisely, with domestic business growing at about 11.8% and export business growing by about 22%-23%. The growth was slightly lower than what we had expected, and we faced challenges in both the domestic business and the export business. The domestic business grew at about 11.8%, and because of the election-related disruptions with people, workers not being on ground, on-site works getting affected, some heat issues coming in, so the domestic business was impacted. In June, we did see improvement on ground with the business. So that's largely on the domestic piece. In the domestic, if you see, particularly, we had a dip in the veneer business, which again is largely a business which is done on-site with carpenters and polishers, etc. So I think that probably is the reason on the dip in the veneer business. On the export business, I think we grew well. We could have done better, and we had challenges on the container availability, goods in water, in tonnage. So I think this challenge has been persistent for the last, I think, nearly 9-12 months, and I'm not sure when this will get streamlined. But on the volume and the value growth, I think we've done reasonably well. We've also been able to improve realization in the export business. So I think that's on the export business. We think as we move ahead, both in the domestic and the export business, across all categories of laminates, veneer, flooring, doors, plywood, I think things will look better. And clearly, I think we are driving to win more market share and also continuously accelerate the rate of growth on the revenue side. On the domestic side, I think we've largely been able to maintain the gross margin of previous year Q1, but we had a dip versus the Q4. So we've seen costs in jobs due to rate increases on the imports. We've seen a slight increase in costs in the laminate business, and we've seen timber costs going up in the plywood business. On the plywood business, we passed on certain costs to the market effective July, so about close to 4% price increases we've done. On the laminate side, we are still reviewing the cost impact and whether we can offset it with higher volume and better value mix. We yet to make a decision on the price increase on the laminate side. So that's on the cost part. As far as the new projects are concerned, the Tamil Nadu factory of plywood, on the factory side, I think things have got largely streamlined. We need to only drive more business. On the laminate factory, the new plant in Andhra Pradesh, that plant is also moving in a good way. Most of the plant operating parameters, manpower on ground systems have largely got streamlined. Again, there too, we have to improve more business. So utilizations did improve in Q1, and I think as we proceed through the year, things should keep improving. On the particleboard plant, as mentioned, we should be able to start the plant in Q3 of this financial year. So that's on the newer plants and newer projects. The Prantij plant, we had already communicated earlier, is by and large running well and near full capacity. So I think that's going reasonably well. So that's probably from my side. I think on the industry side, I think the building material industry, the amount of construction which is happening has happened. A bit of woodwork will come in. We are quite positive on our ability to build the domestic market. On the international markets too, we are getting more market share across many geographies. We are adding new customers with new capacities available with us, with the new sizes of products we can do from our Andhra Pradesh plant. That's also helping us win more market share and add more customers. I think on both the geographies, we feel that things will keep improving as we proceed despite certain headwinds and certain challenges which keep coming. That's probably from my side. Ashok will give a detailed update on the numbers and figures, etc., and we'll be happy to address your questions if any. Ashok, you're ready. Thank you, sir. Good afternoon, friends. I'll take you through the financial performance for the quarter. Consolidated net revenue for this quarter grew by 17.4% on year-over-year basis. However, it did grow by 3.1% on sequential basis to INR 604.7 crore as compared to INR 515.2 crore in quarter one last year. Gross margin this quarter was marginally lower by 30 basis points to 52% from 52.3% in Q1 last year. On a sequential basis, gross margin did grow by 100 basis points. EBITDA margin was down by 190 basis points at 10.6% in this quarter as compared to 12.5% in quarter one last year. On a sequential basis, EBITDA margin did grow by 280 basis points. EBITDA in absolute term remained flat at INR 64 crore in this quarter as compared to INR 64.4 crore in quarter one last year. Net profit for the quarter stood at INR 19.9 crore in this quarter as against INR 33 crore in quarter one last year. Net profit was lower due to higher depreciation and interest costs related to two new plants which we had started last year. I'll move on to the segmental performance. First laminate. Laminate revenue for this quarter grew by 13.2% on year-over-year basis and remained flat on a sequential basis to INR 534 crore from INR 472 crore in quarter one last year. Volume in laminate stood at 11.9% on year-over-year basis. However, the domestic laminate revenue grew by 4.5% on year-over-year basis and did grow by 6.4% sequentially in value terms. Volume growth stood at 10.6% on year-over-year basis. International laminate revenue grew by 22.1% on year-over-year basis and grew by 5.3% sequentially in value terms. Volume grew by 13.8% on year-over-year basis. EBITDA margin for the laminate business stood at 13.6% in this quarter at a growth of 120 basis points on year-over-year basis and a growth of 300 basis points on quarter-over-quarter basis. Production volume was at 5.08 million sheets and at a utilization level of 83%. Sales volume for the quarter stood at 4.67 million sheets. This could have been better, but because of availability of containers, some of the export was held back. Our average realization for the quarter was at INR 1,105 per sheet. Moving on to decorative veneer and allied segment, which includes wood veneer engineered floors and engineered doors, revenue of decorative veneer business did grow by 24.1% on year-over-year basis and did grow by 47.5% on sequential basis to INR 19.6 crores from INR 25.3 crores in quarter one last year. Volume did grow by 26% on year-over-year basis. Sales volume for the quarter stood at 0.2 million sq m, and the capacity utilization for this quarter stood at 21%. Average realization this quarter stood at INR 960 per sq m. Moving on to engineered wood flooring, revenue for the wood floor business grew by 30% on year-on-year basis and did grow by 6.5% on sequential basis to INR 13.4 crores this quarter as against INR 10.3 crores in quarter one last year. Capacity utilization stood at 13% in this quarter. Engineered doors revenue grew by 40.7% on year-on-year basis and remained flat on sequential basis to INR 9.8 crores as against INR 7 crores in quarter one last year. Capacity utilization for door business stood at 21% in this quarter. In the plywood business, our revenue stands at INR 27.6 crores in this quarter. Sales volume for the quarter one stood at 1.14 million square meters, and capacity utilization for this quarter was 24%. Average realization of plywood in this quarter stood at INR 242 per square meter. Our net working capital days stood at 65 days in this quarter as compared to 72 days in quarter one last year. Our net debt stood at INR 922 crores, which includes debt of approximately INR 465 crores on account of ongoing particleboard projects. That's all from our side. I would now like to open the floor for question and answer. Thank you. Thank you very much. We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on the touch-tone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. The first question is from the line of Keshav Lahoti from HDFC Securities. Please go ahead. Hi. Thank you for the opportunity. So I want to better understand more on laminates export side because the freight costs have seen a sharp spike. So how should we read? Because if the freight cost rises substantially, whether the domestic manufacturers of that country become more competitive, and will it be able to pass on this entire increase in freight costs? Because this quarter we have seen some 300 basis points sequentially margin compression in laminates. How do we see the margin going forward? And do you maintain your 15%-16% laminates margin guidance for the year and 20% revenue growth overall? I think that's a good question. So clearly, freight costs have gone up. So normally we end up, so we have agreed freight cost with the customer beyond which we charge them for the increase. So in the last few months or even now, we've been able to pass on most of the increases, barring few increases in certain markets. So as we proceed, my guess is it depends on where the freight costs go to. So I think certain markets will be able to pass on the increases. Certain markets, they might have to do some cost share kind of a model. So I think it'll be like a mixed bag as we proceed. As far as the competitiveness is concerned, so the competitiveness is not only on the cost. Certain geographies, the local manufacturers don't have capacities also. But yes, with extreme freight costs or extremely high freight costs, even if you end up passing on the increase to the customers, it impacts the business model in those countries. But as we see at the moment, and like the data suggests for Q1, we have grown at about over 20% in value. We've also improved our realizations. So I think this focus on driving volumes and the constant focus on product development and premiumization is something we've been pursuing for many years. I think with this combined strategy of pushing of the volumes and constantly improving value mix, I think we should be okay with the business model. Certain markets we export to, there's a currency advantage also which we are gaining because in those geographies, which is mostly the pounds, we export in pounds and we have no imports. So that little bit of currency advantage also we are gaining. So that's on the freight and how we see the international markets. As far as the margins are concerned, there could be some movement% here or there, but if you see the margin reduction, it's also due to certain operating costs which have gone up. The outputs, the sales have not been booked which have been produced. So there's also a little bit of those valuation accounting issues also are there. So I think very hard to say exactly what% movement will happen. If the volumes do go up, we are able to sell, we are able to do value mix. Maybe some of those additional costs can get met up with additional volumes, better price mix, etc. Very hard to say what's going to happen. So I'll ask Ashok to comment on that also. Yeah. We will be, as of now, the same guidance which we have given that 18%-20% in the revenue items. EBITDA last quarter was 16.6%, which was higher than our average margin. We believe that we should be in the range of 16%, but everything will depend upon how the cost moves from here. Understood. How should we read the increasing kraft paper cost from Q2 onwards? Will it have any major impact, any reading? So certain kraft paper costs have gone up. So it will have an impact. Any cost going up will have an impact. And certain deco paper costs, not as base price, but because of the sea freight increase from both Southeast Asia, East Asia, and Europe. So that's also adding to the cost. The base price hasn't gone up, but the freight costs have gone up. So in some way, we have to bear some cost with the supplier. Some places, the shipments are FOB, so we have to bear some. So there will be some cost impact. I think we have to make up with better efficiencies and improve value mix. I think, and those efforts are going on. Understood. But what is coming from price hike in the market right now? If the kraft paper prices are increasing, decor paper why, they are not taking price hike to pass it on. So like I said earlier, so we are also reviewing whether we need to increase prices in the domestic market. Internationally, we will not be able to increase prices because of the freight cost increasing passed on to the customers more or less. So internationally is going to be hard to increase prices. So internationally, the focus is on pushing out more volume and improving the value mix. Domestic market, we are reviewing whether we can do a price increase. Okay. One last question from my side. Normally, if the freight, you book a vessel in advance, like want to understand the increase in freight cost is passed on with the lag effect? No. In terms of our export, it is passed upon on the every consignment to consignment, and it cannot be booked in advance. It is booked on depending upon the vessel availability at the time of export only. Beyond the agreed cost with the customer, cost in excess of that is getting passed down to the customer in most of the cases. However, in some cases, company may have to be at the cost. Okay. Thank you. That is quite helpful. Thank you. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Praveen Sahay from PL India. Please go ahead. Am I audible? Yeah. Yes, please. Hello? Yeah, please. Yeah. So my question is related to the export. So you also mentioned about the container availability that also restricted some export order to execute. So how has that impacted in Q1? And what's the situation right now? Is that worsened more than Q1? And when are you expecting things to normalize? So in the Q1, we have already mentioned in our communication that Q1, still towards the end of June, we could not be able to ship some of the material, nearly 150,000 sheets, we could not be able to ship. And that situation in July, it's only, I will not say majorly improved, but yeah, a little bit better than June end. And it's difficult to, as of now, say when the situation will become normal because it's not in our hand. It's more of a geopolitical situation which is creating this trouble. So as of now, we only hope that this will get improved, but it's difficult to give exactly by when this will get resolved. Okay. Second question is, as you had mentioned that there is no price hike in the laminate, and also there is some cost has been increased. But if I look at your gross margin in the laminate, it has not much on the year-over-year side corrected. So do we expect going forward there is some correction in the gross margin because of some raw material cost impact? So, I'll take a question. So, if you see, while GPs have gone, gross margin has not been too affected. This is also because we've been able to improve the value mix. And I said that to the earlier colleague of HDFC that we've always had a focus on both driving volumes and improving the value mix in domestic and international. So, our realization has slightly also improved in Q1. So, as we move ahead, I think the effort, which we can't say this with certainty, but the effort is, to drive more volumes and also drive the value mix underneath in both domestic and international markets. So, as we see things now, maybe it may not be major impact despite the RM cost increase in the laminate business. Okay. Last questions are related to the domestic laminate business. There the numbers are quite soft, and you had given an indication of a general election and the heat wave, which has impacted the Q1. So how the things are playing out right now? Because these things are in the past now. As a whole, laminate domestic business, you are seeing some kind of improvement? So if you see Q1, we've had in domestic business about 10% quantity growth, and value growth has been slightly above 5%. And like I said earlier, we have started seeing improvements from June onwards. So our sense is that even this month is looking pretty decent. So our sense is it should be kind of normalized quarter in Q2, at least on the domestic demand side. Okay. Thank you, sir. All the best. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Sneha Talreja from Nuvama. Please go ahead. Hi. Good afternoon, sir, and thanks for the opportunity. Just a couple of questions from my end. You've seen around 12% growth on the domestic market, perhaps your export growth is also interesting. Just wanted to understand what would be the growth rate, industry growth rate. And does that mean you are really gaining market share? And if at all, could you give some flavor? Is it national players losing market share, or is it smaller players that are losing market share? Some sense that would be helpful. So, domestic data we don't really have, so it will not be right for me to. I don't have the data, so I can't say much. The sense we've got is that it's been slow domestic in Q1 for most of the players, both organized and unorganized. Until now, we've not been able to see any other companies' results, so can't say too much on that. On the exports, there is some DGFT data and all that. So I think there we've seen that we have won market share, and we've grown more than the industry growth in the quarter. That is true. Yeah. Domestic, hard to say now, but I think once the data comes out of the other companies, we'll get a better sense of what's happened on that. So I mean, you're deep diving into exports in that case. Is it that India as a country is gaining market share, or you specifically are coming out, or is it a shift between the domestic players, or is it you're gaining from some outside players based on your cost advantage, India advantage? So I still think we're too small to put these numbers into a very macro. But I think clearly within exports from India, I think our market share has gone up. And the geographies we are operating in, not all geographies, certain geographies, we've won more business maybe versus the regional local players there. Also, you have to appreciate that we've added a lot of capacity in laminates with three lines in Andhra Pradesh and three lines in Gujarat. We've also added new sizes of products. So earlier, we were constrained with capacity in the earlier plants. I think that's also freed up our supply chain and improved our supply chain into markets because we've already built many markets. So I think a bit of both is happening. I think we are winning our market share from India exports have gone up. I think certain geographies are also taking share from the international players. I don't think the overall market is growing so much. I think it's more of a market share shift domestically and internationally. Understood. That was helpful. Secondly, on your other division, which is of course decorative veneers plus floorings and those put together, what is the reason why we are not seeing similar growth there? Because I think you have definitely built-in capacity or utilization levels are lower. Is it the market acceptance towards the premium product that is not letting it happen, and what could be your turnaround strategy there? So if you see other parts of the businesses, the flooring business has not slipped much versus Q4 sequentially and has grown versus Q1. And as we talk, we'll see improvements moving ahead. That's in the flooring. If you see doors too, we've actually gained versus Q4 at a small base, and we've grown reasonably well versus Q1 of previous year. And again, I say this, as we move ahead, we'll see both the floor and the veneer business do well. Sorry, the floor and the door business do well. The decorative veneer business was a bit of a disappointment. I think here we clearly have slipped in Q1 versus Q4 and versus Q1 of previous FY. And our sense is because this product, and I said this earlier, there's carpentry work and polishing work, and there's a little bit of heat disruption. This is mostly an on-site work. So, I think there's a little bit of challenge here. I say, I think Q2, we should come back to a regular business in veneer. We already see that this year because in the veneer model, the way the business works, people come to select the material. It's physically you have to move to sites. There's a carpenter, there's a polisher. So there's a little bit of a manual intervention, which is a bit higher than the other categories. You still don't have large factories finishing veneers in the plants and making furniture. Maybe that's one of the factors or maybe just being a bit slow. On the ply business, Q1 of last year is obviously not relevant versus Q4. We've been slightly a slight growth of 5%. We started opening besides South India, the Maharashtra market also starting April. So that's still WIP. So yes, we could have done better, but it's not that we've not done okay. I think when everyone's data comes out, probably we'll see we've done reasonably okay. So I think as we move ahead, we probably will keep doing better on these categories also. Sure. Any vision where these all three businesses or four businesses, individually smaller ones, would start contributing to profitability or would at least break even? Yeah. So if you see, I don't have the data, but Q4 last year, they'd all come into profit, as you described. Now, so if you see the flooring and doors is very minor loss. Ply also we've been able to reduce the loss. So I think from a break-even, that's an operating level and the EBITDA level. I think as far as the profitability is concerned, I think that's not too far away on the veneer flooring doors. Ply, I think we still need to ramp up a little bit more volume to come to a profitable position. But we're on the job in terms of driving more business, gaining more market share, scaling these businesses. Understood. Sir Elashli, or maybe Ashok Sir also can handle this regarding employee expenses. Is it also because of the fact that our new business, which is particle board, is expected to come in and cost seems higher right now? And when can we see as a percentage of sales or the number normalizing? So this is not related with the particle board because that has not yet come into the, as of now, the commercial production. So that's not in the books as of now. They've not expensed out. But if you compare from the quarter four, so if you see that employee cost has gone up by INR 10 crore, so that will be, that is on account of one-time annual expense, which happens in the quarter one and the annual increment. So not much has gone up. In terms of%, yes, it might have gone up because of the sales being lower than the quarter four. Understood, sir. Thanks. Thanks a lot and all the very best. Thank you. Before we take the next question, I will remind the participant to press star and one to ask a question. The next question is from the line of Utkarsh Nopany from BOB Capital. Please go ahead. Yes, hi Saurabh. Thank you, sir. Sir, I have a few questions from my side. First, on the particle board segment, sir, if we see our particle board capex cost per unit, it appears to be on a quite higher side at around INR 30,000 per CVM versus if we see for the other MDF projects which have been recently completed, it's around, say, INR 21,000-INR 25,000. So given that particle board features significantly lower realization compared to the MDF product, so whether can we think of clocking low double-digit ROCE on this project, even if we are able to operate the plant at full capacity in future? Yeah. Yeah. Hi, Utkarsh. So your observation is correct. And as the things stand as of now, which we have said in the last earlier also, that as the things stand as of now, the raw material cost, the timber cost is at the highest level till now. And that's work on the cycle. And we believe that it will settle down by the time we come into our commercial production starts and we come back up to a certain size and scale. We believe that in terms of when we reach the full utilization level, which will happen in the third or fourth year kind of a thing, then we can have that margin in the range of around 15%-18% ROCE. Okay. And for that 15%-18% ROCE, what kind of realization and EBITDA per unit we are assuming, sir? EBITDA can be in terms of, not in terms of more, in terms of as a% of revenue. It will be in the range of 20%-24% depending upon what the raw material prices and the sales prices at that moment of time in terms of that. We are seeing optimum utilization of 90%+, which can happen in the fourth year of operation. Okay. Sir, my second question is on plywood. Sorry, I'm coming back again. Can I just, yes, just once, on the particle board and MDF CapEx cost comparison? You might want to just also consider that particle board is largely a pre-laminated particle business model. So it's not only a board production. So you have to, the model will be laminated board will be sold at least 80%, if not more. And so you have capital expenditures on impregnators, presses, plates more than the MDF plants. I think that's something you should also know. Also, I would like to highlight here that the process is a bit more complex in MDF. And if you would study trends of Europe and even Asia, you'll see increasingly more plants coming of particle board because it's more cost-efficient. It has more flexibility in the dimension of boards, and you supply a pre-laminated board. So the model is a bit different, not completely, but I think you must keep these things in mind while comparing the capital expenditure. So it's not a board-to-board comparison of CapEx. It's board plus lamination of nearly 80% capacity lamination. That's something you should keep in mind. Anyway, go ahead, sir. Yeah. So my second question is on the plywood segment only. Normally, we don't see any capital-intensive project take so much of time to reach the break-even EBITDA point. Then why is it taking so much time for us? And by when we are likely to become EBITDA positive for plywood segment, sir? So plywood, so we are in the upper premium segment of the market. We're not in the middle or lower end of the market. Quarter after quarter, I think the loss is reducing. And if you see now, nearly at about, I think, 40 or close to sales in a quarter, we should become EBITDA positive, approximately slightly lower than that. And timber costs have also gone up substantially over the last six to nine months. So I think we're on the job to set up the sales model, secondary sales. And because it's also a branded model, we're not in the lowest segment of the market. It doesn't sell only by price. So I think just to put the entire sales cycle in terms of demand generation, specification, that work is taking some time to bring it to that capacity. Otherwise, product quality, performance, South India's network is by and large in place in the market. Okay. So sir, can we expect to reach the EBITDA break-even for plywood, say, maybe by the second half of this fiscal? Well, it may be possible. It'll depend on where the timber costs and where the sales are clearly. So obviously, clearly, that's our intent to get there. We also have slightly higher marketing costs initially to support the sales of plywood. So I can't put that with certainty, but clearly, we want to keep we want to get there at the earliest. Okay. Sir, thirdly, on the laminate segment, our realization has been quite volatile on a Q1, Q2 basis in the past few quarters. Can you please guide how much realization hike we should assume for FY 2025 on an annualized basis considering the current product mix? Why did you say that it's volatile? Whatever I can see, it's fairly stable with the forward slightly going upward. So it's not that it's moving up and down every quarter-on-quarter basis. So it's fairly, I will say, stable in terms of that with some upward increase. However, in the domestic and export, it might happen, but overall, it's fairly stable. We believe that it will go slightly going up depending upon the product mix, what we have in the product mix as well as the domestic and export mix we have on a quarter-on-quarter basis. But with a better product mix, it should go up. Okay. Sir, lastly, I just need a few data points. If you can just guide the budgeted CapEx cost for FY 2025 and 2026, and what would be our quarterly interest and depreciation cost from the March 2025 quarter period once we commission our particle board project? We will come back to you on the weekly. Okay. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Rishab Bothra from Anand Rathi. You may go ahead. Good afternoon, sir. Two or three questions from my side. Firstly, on the cost front, what is the mechanism where we can protect ourselves from the fluctuations in raw material prices? I mean, there are frequent fires in some part of the geography. India also witnessed in a few months back. So what pricing impact does that fire have on our raw material pricing? Should I? Yeah, yeah. No? Yeah. So there is no fixed formula, Rishab, in terms of in that. What we are very actively managing our raw material cost in terms of, let's say, in the chemical from 45 days to 90 days the previous booking has been done. You can't do more than that because the material will not be available. In terms of base paper, we maintain an inventory of around six months, six to seven months inventory we maintain. And the price is also fairly stable. It goes up as and when there is an inordinate movement in the cost. Let's say shipping cost is going up substantially, which nobody can predict when it will go up. And that has an impact on the overall price. Either we are buying at CIF, where the vendor will increase, or if we are buying on an FOB basis, which means our cost of getting the container or the ocean freight will go up. So we manage that on an active basis in terms of that. But it's very difficult wherein we don't have any impact on the price. We will have the impact. Of course, that impact will be more on a staggered manner and will have probably 2-3 months post it starts happening in most of the cases. Okay. And in terms of fire, fire in forest and all those stuff region? Fire and that is that we have not seen any impact of that on our raw material prices. Doesn't the prices shoot up during those time frames? But why it is so? It has no impact on us or our vendor. So we have not seen any such cases in the past. Got it. In terms of plantation, do we intend to go for plantation sometime? We have started running a program since last year wherein we don't do the plantation. We will help the farmers' community in and around our plant by providing them the technical input as well as supporting them with the clonal kind of a thing on a cost basis. We have already started from last year at two of our plants in South India. Okay. So this was on the cost front. On the revenue front, once the capacities are on stream, what is the maximum potential revenue which we can obtain and in what time frame? In each of the segments exactly. Right now, only the particle board project is ongoing. Just all the ply board as well as the expansion of laminate has already been done in last year. So with this, the particle board, once it reaches the optimum utilization of 90%+ or near 100%, we believe that at the current prices, we will be in the range of around INR 4,000 crore-INR 4,200 crore. And we believe that if everything goes as per our plan, that should happen by, let's say, in 28, in around FY 2028. Okay. And sir, is there any fungibility? I mean, if there are some disruption in what we? Rishabh, that is from the current whatever capacity which we have. But during this course of these next 3-4 years, we might need capacity in, let's say, in laminate. That should be over and above this. Got it, sir. Got it. Sir, my next question was, is there any fungibility? Let's say there are some disruption in overseas market or in domestic market, we can divert those products vice versa to maintain our growth momentum? If this is for laminates, mostly yes. For certain products don't have a market in India, so that may not be possible. But so you can assume mostly yes. So the capacities are fungible. Got it. Sir, doors and windows have been—I mean, the utilization level has been not up to mark. I mean, you have been mentioning time and again that those will remain the same. But what is our long-term ambition of those capacity utilization in those segments, doors and windows? I mean, flooring, sorry, not windows, doors and flooring. So clearly, it's inching up. I think last year, overall, we did better than the previous year. I think this quarter, also the first quarter versus the previous year's first quarter, in both the categories, we grew on about 30% and 50%. So I think it's inching up. And with a lot of premium homes, hotels coming up through the country, I think the flooring business to us looks to be in a good position. As far as the door is concerned, also, I think the flow of business orders has been decent. So I think both the business will keep improving as we proceed. This will be more so institutional business only, not B2C as such? The flooring is retail and institution. The doors is largely institution and some retail also. Okay. Lastly, sir, the peak debt level, what could be that in 2025 and 2026? Yeah. So as per our estimate, peak debt will be in this year only because the project particle board project will get over in this year. So we believe that our peak debt will be in the range of around INR 925-INR 950 crore in that range. And from next year onwards, this should start coming down because most of the CapEx will be over in this year. Thank you, sir, patiently hearing me and answering my questions. We'll come back in queue. Thank you. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Saatvik from IIFL Securities. Please go ahead. Hi, sir. I just have one question. Sir, on your plywood business, where do you see your utilization going by March 25? Sorry, will you come again? Saatvik? Sir, on your plywood business. Sarthvik, question again? Yes, sir. Am I audible now? Yeah, yeah. Sir, on your plywood business, where do you see your capacity utilization going by March 2025? For the year, it's difficult to give on quarter-on-quarter basis. For the year as a whole, we expect that our utilization will be in the range of around 40%. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, we request you to restrict to two questions per person. The next question is from the line of Bhavin Rupani from Investec. Please go ahead. Hi, sir. Thank you so much for the opportunity. My first question is related to laminate business. Sir, what are the major factors which resulted in lower margins during the quarter? You mentioned that there were certain overhead costs which led to lower margins. Can you just quantify those overhead costs? We will not be able to give that much detail. So in terms of employee cost, if you see that from the FY 2014, sorry, the quarter four, it has gone up by close to around INR 10 crore, which includes the one-time annual cost, which happens normally in the quarter one, as well as the annual appraisal cost, increment cost that happens in the quarter one. Plus, if you see the related to the margin, in comparison to last year on a year-on-year basis, the gross margin is down by around 0.3 odd% kind of a thing. And with this, I think these are the two major. And if you compare from the last quarter four also, the gross margin is down by 140 basis points, and the employee cost has gone up. These are the two major factors which have resulted in the lower EBITDA margin for the laminate in this quarter. Also, the fact that a decent amount of shipments couldn't happen, which are produced. So there were valued at all costs, I think. That's also versus March ending in now. I think the inventory at plant and inventory in the water has also gone up. I don't have exact data. I think that's also a fair share. If that would have been invoiced and sold, clearly, that would also have helped the EBITDA margin because most of the manufacturing expenses would have been gotten cut. So I think it's utilization of the revenue recognition could not happen due to containers and goods in transit of exports. Domestic, there were no challenges on that front and the other costs of manufacturing. Okay. Sir, if we remove the, let's say, Naidupeta is running at 40%-45% utilization right now, if we remove the revenue or volumes of Naidupeta, is it correct that our total overall organic volume growth would have been in single digits? So I think that besides the 6 by 14, 16 by 14 feet line in Naidupeta, the others, there have been some movement between customers and business. So actually, removing it completely may not be appropriate. So 6 by 14 is a new line. It's a new product, a new line. I think that's fair. But all the other sizes are part of the same business model. And we have moved certain business to serve certain geographies, certain markets from the existing plants to Naidupeta to achieve better supply chain, lower transit times, etc. So I think that may not be a right comparison, but I leave it to Ashok what he wants to comment. That's correct. Hello. Yeah. Mr. Bhavin, does that answer your question? Yeah. I have a follow-up. Sir, as far as raw materials concerned, apart from kraft and decor paper, we have been hearing that 8%-10% increase in resin prices as well. Is that correct, sir? So as you mentioned earlier, also, in the base paper, in most of the cases, the increase is on account of ocean freight, where either it is increased by vendor or in case of FOB, ocean freight has gone up for us. In case of kraft paper, some grade of kraft paper, there are increases in this quarter. But overall, kraft paper will not go up by around this much%. That's correct. And in terms of chemical, again, in the chemical, also, there are impacts of ocean freight. In some of the chemical, it comes in containerized form. So there also, there is increase of the ocean freight. And mostly, I will say that in terms of the increase because of freight, except one or two cases where the base prices have also gone. All right. All right. Sir, next is on laminate expansion. Any plans for you? So as of now, we are running at around 83% capacity utilization as a whole. And we have gone up in the past 108%, 110%. So we have around 17, 18%, sorry, around 25% capacity in our hand. So we will take a decision at an appropriate time. We always review our capacities on a regular basis. So we will take that close to around 3 to 4 quarters before when we reach that 108%, 110%, or above 100%, then we will take this call. But just to tell you that at both the plant in the Gujarat plant as well as in the South India plant, we have enough space in terms of to do a brownfield expansion, which can happen at a much faster pace at a much lower cost. Got it. Is it possible to quantify how much expansion can be done at both Gujarat and South along with the cost? It will depend upon the requirement at that moment because cost depends upon what do you put, what sizes of press you put. So it will be difficult to quantify as of now. But I can only say that we have enough space for the brownfield expansion. Okay. So sir, can you assume doubling our capacity at both Gujarat as well as Naidupeta plant? Is it a fair assumption? Yeah. Theoretically, that is a possibility at both these locations. Okay. Fair enough. Sir, next question is related to. Mr. Bhavin, can you please join the question queue to ask your follow-up questions? All right. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Rajesh Kumar Ravi from HDFC Securities. Please go ahead. Yeah. Hi, sir. Am I audible? Yes, Rajesh. Please go ahead. Yeah. Hi, sir. My question pertains to exports. In Q1, what would be the freight component in top line? And how would that change in Q2 currently tendered? You see that the freight cost is only looking up. Rajesh, what we expect in terms of that, so any additional freight has been passed on to the consumer, to the customer. That has not come more as a contra item that is not kept into the revenue. We pay and we recollect from the customers. That is not part of the revenue. Okay. So in revenues, what you book is exactly which part of the cost in terms of freight cost? This is agreed with the customer only. Over and above any additional cost, that is recovered from the customer. That is not part of the revenue. Neither in revenue nor in OpEx, right? Yeah. Okay. And sir, if I look at in terms of your whatever the agreed freight cost that you book, that is reflected under which heading in the operating cost? It will come into the other expenses. Okay. It comes under the other expenses. And second question pertains to this particle board. One of the players is already Merino, is now ramping up their capacity. Almost a year would have been they have been operating. Any understanding on how the market is, market acceptance of the product and their utilization and what sort of how is the realization shaping up for the same? Because you would also be targeting similar customers. So the feedback we have is that they have a decent flow of business. Exact utilization, I would not know. But you probably know that Merino and others will be the only companies with the size, capacity, flexibility of dimension of the boards, the product quality, etc. We end up competing with unorganized, lower-level, low-quality particle board producers who produce boards from bagasse and from wood also, but mostly multilayer technology, Chinese technology, where boards are not of good quality, uneven, finishing is not good. Certain market share in the OEMs because of lack of particle boards has been taken away by MDF. So we think we can also win some business from there. So we think it should go well. Okay. Great, sir. That's all from my end. Thank you. All the best. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Ritesh Shah from Investec. Please go ahead. Hi, sir. Thanks for the opportunity. Sir, a couple of simple questions. Sir, you indicated that we have overall laminate exports. We have cost-plus. Did I hear it right? So I wanted some clarification on that. Secondly, you also indicated that we have part of our sales, which is on FOB basis. Wanted some clarification on that. And third, wanted to understand, is there a regional sales mix that you can provide on laminate exports? Just trying to understand the right impact and what we can do to mitigate it going forward if hypothetically the situation continues for longer. Thank you. So, Ritesh, in terms of your first query, in the export, what we have said that most of our sales are on a C&F basis only, which means the freight is paid by us only. So wherein we have an agreement, wherein a certain amount of freight has been built in in the cost of the or the price of the product. In case of a very high fluctuation, if the price goes beyond that agreed level, then the additional freight is charged to customer on a consignment-to-consignment basis. So this is what which we have explained. This we have started from the pandemic. And now again, we have used this scenario now again after this geopolitical situation when the cost of ocean freight has gone substantially in terms of that. And your next query, in terms of geographical-wise details, sorry, we don't share the details into the product. Right. So how should we look to mitigate these external factors like freight? Is there a possibility? How do we look at it, like geographical diversification to look at more of U.S., less of Europe? How should we understand this? Well, I think that's not relevant in our case right now because we have capacities, we have markets, we have to service the markets. We are not into a commodity model. We have to keep our supply chain on to the customers. So we can't switch. We can't say no and yes. We are into a long-term model. And it's a standard distribution model. Our teams are in the market working with the furniture makers, architects, IDs. So that's not relevant in our business model. I think the only way to mitigate is to improve the value mix, improve the price point, improve efficiency, improve volumes, create more demand, sell better products. I think that's the only understanding we have. Good. And sir, this last question. Sir, whom do we sell our material to when we say we are catered to exports? Is it big box retailers? Is it master distributors? How does the sale actually happen? It's a bit of a long-winded discussion, but in just brief, it'll be channel distributors, it'll be large furniture producers, mostly these two, at times some large contractors, fabricators. Okay. Is it possible to give us some broad mix over here? No. We will not be able to provide that, please. Sure. All right. Thank you so much. Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, this was the last question for today. I would now like to hand the conference over to the management for closing comments. Yes. Jiten, thank you so much for taking out your time and your questions. If you have any other questions, you can reach out to us or to SG for those. Thank you so much. Thank you, everyone. Thank you. On behalf of Greenlam Industries Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.