Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the earnings conference call of ICICI Securities Limited for the quarter and year ending March 31, 2022. We have with us on the call Mr. Vijay Chandok, Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer, Mr. Ajay Saraf, Executive Director, Mr. Harvinder Jaspal, Chief Financial Officer, Mr. Vishal Gulechha, Head Retail Equities, Mr. Kedar Deshpande, Head Retail Distribution, Product and Services Group, Mr. Anupam Guha, Head Private Wealth Management, Mr. Subhash Menon, Chief Technology and Digital Officer, Mr. Ketan Karkhanis, Head Digital Client Acquisition and Co-head New Solutions Group, Mr. Prasannan Keshavan, Head Operations, and Mr. Nilotpal Gupta, Head Data Science Unit. For the duration of this presentation, all participant lines will be in listen-only mode. They will be standing by for Q&A session. If you need assistance during this conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star then zero on your touchtone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. This business presentation can be found on the company's corporate website, icicisecurities.com, under investor relations. I would now like to call Mr. Chandok to take over the proceedings. Good evening, sir. Thank you. Very good evening to all of you and welcome to the ICICI Securities quarter four call, as well as we are taking the full year earnings call for fiscal 2022. I'm sure that by now you would have already reviewed through our financial year numbers, and also the quarter four results and also, of course, our presentation which has been uploaded. I will start with highlighting a few points. First on the financial side, three things I would like to highlight. If you look at the FY 2022 revenue, this stood at INR 3,458 crore, registering a 30% growth over the last fiscal year. This has been led by a strong performance across all businesses that we are in. Our profit after tax for FY 2022 grew by about 29% and it came in at about INR 1,882.6 crores. The board of directors approved a final dividend of INR 12.75 per share, taking the full year dividend to INR 24 per share of fiscal FY 2023. As we look at the operating side this year, what we find is diversification as a scheme has really stood out, and it has stood out for us in the areas of revenue mix and also in terms of client segmentation. When I talk about revenue mix, what here we see is that the broking as a contribution and to total revenue has now come down to about 44% in fiscal 2022, which used to be 58% in fiscal 2021. In fact, when you look at quarter four, it has come down further from 45% to 42%. The retail allied equity income contribution to the total equity has actually increased now to 22% in the full fiscal, which was 16% last fiscal. If you look at quarter four, it is actually further increased to 38% of the total retail equity. This is on the back of traction from Prime and our MTF which is gained by a greater margin. We also see diversification with respect to age group and revenue mix. Of our total equity retail revenue, what we find is that 50% of revenue is coming now from millennials and Gen Z. A 50% is coming from 40- to 50-year-old and another 30% coming from above 50. In 50% of revenue in each of the fiscal 2014-2022 is contributed by greater than five-year vintage customers, referring to relating to our ability to retain, you know, vintage customers as we move along. With respect to client sourcing and the client mix, we see that there has been a strong momentum in client acquisition. We added close to 22.7 lakh customers in FY 2022, which is the highest that we've ever done in any year. Today our customer base is now expanded to about 25.6 lakh customers. In the last three years, millennials and Gen Z has now constituting more than 80% of our active customers and 65% of our customers acquired in FY 2022 are actually less than 30 years of age. A 84% of these customers are from tier two and tier three cities. Pursuing with this theme of diversification, the open architecture strategy has actually helped us reduce our dependence on ICICI Bank for new customer acquisition because today we find that 78%, 79% actually of customers are sourced from channels other than ICICI. The other point we want to highlight with respect to this year is that there is clear traction in product propositions and our digital properties which we've been launching in the past few quarters. To name a few, our PMS book has now crossed INR 700 crores. Prime proposition to our customers has now crossed 1 million customers. We have more than 1 million Prime customers on our platform. The Markets and Money App that we have launched has crossed a combined download of about 1 million, and the Markets App is rated four stars on the Play Store. There is clearly gaining traction that we see on some of our properties like One Click Markets, which is both for equities and mutual funds. Premium Portfolios, Masters of the Street, t hese are very interesting products that we've launched to gain share of business in the equities business, the equity side of our market opportunity. The MTF book on an average of the fiscal has actually scaled up by 26 x from what it was last year. We're clearly a market leader with a 22% market share in the MTF side of the business. Finally, when you look at this year, our efforts were actually recognized by various awards that we won. I don't want to talk about them. I'll just highlight two of them, actually. One of them is where we were ranked as India's Best Securities House by Asia Money in 2021. The second one I'll highlight is the Digital Wealth Manager of the Year award by FICCI which is a digital award for 2022. I'll now turn our attention and talk about quarter four performance. While we look at the entire fiscal as a strong year on the whole, quarter one to five was a mixed bag as far as the industry was concerned. We witnessed in Q3 a reduction in cash equity volumes and also postponement of various primary market issuances owing to uncertainty in the market led by the geopolitical tensions arising out of the Russia-Ukraine war. The retail client additions to this industry, even in terms of NSE active or also in terms of total number of Demat accounts, also lost momentum in this quarter compared to the sequential previous quarter. While the cash volumes reduced in the quarter, derivative trading volumes continued to show growth, but clearly there was some moderation in the growth rate related to the previous quarter. On quarter four, our revenue grew by 21% on a YOY basis to INR 892.3 crores. Again, this is on the back of growth in all our business segments on a yearly basis. However, when you look at it on a sequential quarter basis, revenue declined 5%. This decline is primarily attributed to our issuer and advisory business which was impacted, as I mentioned, due to postponement of various public issuances due to the geopolitical uncertainties going on. When you look at our distribution business, it actually showed an improvement. Equities business overall remained flat on a sequential basis. Even when you look at our cost structure, it remained flat. As a result, profit after tax for the full year increased 5% and declined by 9% on a sequential basis. This came in at about INR 340.3 crores. This sequential decline in profit can be attributed to lower revenue in the issuer and advisory business. Let me now just take you through some of the key highlights of our performance for the period. That's, you know, all the feedback that you've been giving us to improve our disclosure. This time around, we have gone ahead and added additional disclosures. This is for the first time we are giving you a disclosure on our retail market share in equities and derivative side. On the retail equity market share, we are happy to report that our market share improved by about 30 basis points in quarter four on a sequential basis as compared to quarter three. Market share now has crossed 10% and is at 10.1%. This was at 9.8% in quarter three. This is clearly as a result of the traction that is coming on various products that I just spoke about earlier in my comments. On the derivatives side, however, our efforts to regain market share continue, and it remains a focus area as our market share in derivatives actually declined in quarter four to 2.3%. Now, to recoup this market share, we have identified four key investment levers, namely pricing, experience, various tools to facilitate derivatives, and finally, the proposed and the open API architecture platform. To update you on the pricing front, we have already launched NEO, which is gaining traction. On the experience and analytical tools front, we have launched our new Market Wrap, One Click Derivatives to our platform, new TradingView on charts, Option Expert. We've invested in improving UI, UX among some of the other initiatives. As far as the open API architecture is concerned, we have very recently launched the same called Breeze API, and it is currently in the adoption phase. It has several industry first features. In a short period of its launch, teamed up with more than about 1,000, you know, traders. A lot of that has to actually play out, in the times forward. On the back of these measures, what have we seen? We have seen an improvement in some of the input parameters, like number of customers, like orders, like lots. There are many more initiatives in the pipeline which are in the domain of algo trading platform. We are coming out very shortly with a, you know, with a platform which we have branded as Beta Cockpit, which is directed towards high volume traders. We are also rolling out with one such simplified options trading product which we branded it as Flash Trade. All these initiatives, we've, you know, just been launched. We remain totally committed to start showing you some gains in market share as we move forward. On distribution business, we have witnessed a growth in revenue driven by insurance and other distribution products. Our loan base broadened with distribution of home loans and also some of the other loans that we distribute which have momentum. We registered market share gains both on a sequential as well as YOY basis for flows into bank and equity mutual funds. We feel satisfied when we look at the strong gains that we have made at a granular level on the SIP count as far as mutual funds are concerned. This is on the back of the launch of our Money App which has seen good adoption from customers. When you look at the mutual fund data, there are multiple key points that I'd cover. The mutual fund average AUM is up by 22%, which is an all-time high for us. The AUM market share increased from 1.6% to 1.7%. Market share in SIP improved and stands at about 3.7%. SIP counts for Q4 touched 1 million per month, t his used to be 700,000 a year ago. The SIP flows increased by 31% YOY now. In context of our insurance business, we are working on multiple fronts to harness the entire insurance opportunity. We are working on creating intuitive customer journey, which is highlighted by our partnership that we recently announced with CoverFox. In fact, the product made for CoverFox has also been launched through Chase App. This is enhancing our product suite, which is helping us integrate with insurance and it is helping us provide an analytical-driven, personalized experience to our customers which is leveraging our Money App. Loan distribution continues to scale up. This quarter we disbursed INR 660 crore as against INR 530 crore that was done last year in quarter. As far as the issuer and advisory business was concerned, it was impacted in this quarter, considering the environment not being very conducive for IPOs. Having said that, the franchise continues to strengthen its leadership position and the pipeline is pretty strong. We also continue our efforts on growing recurring side of the issuer and advisory business like QIP blocks and other advisory services. Having looked at Q4, I'll now shift our attention and give a little bit perspective on the way forward. As we enter FY 2023, we are entering it on the back of a slowing market environment. However, we continue to believe quite strongly on the medium-term story for the industry. That story remains intact despite the short-term headwinds, FY 2023 will be a year of investment for us. We will be making significant expenditure on investments on technology and marketing. This is in line with our endeavor to stay ahead of the curve. Investment in technology will be to magnify our digital capabilities, modernize our data center, and also help us transform our tech architecture to become cloud-enabled. Key areas where we are spending on technology are cloud migration, launching new digital properties, addition of digital layers to existing ones to enhance customer experience, and finally building a reliable and a risk-protected data infrastructure. This year our tech costs increased by 70%, as compared to the previous year. In the year that is FY 2023, we are budgeting a commitment of 2.5 x what we spent in the year that just got concluded. Marketing spend is primarily focused on brand building activities and increasing promotion and awareness on new properties, products, and features to increase our presence. Today, if you look at digital fintech space. We Invest ranks as amongst the most diversified business models and this diversified business model has a meaningful presence and market share in several business segments. Today it would be fair to say that we have established ourselves as one of the leading fintech players in the country. We continue to tread the pedal to strengthen our franchise and gain market share in the equity side of the business and continue as we do so diversify into other revenue opportunities of insurance loans and other distribution products so that we can emerge as an open architectured digital NEO financial services platform. I'll end my commentary and go to open for questions waiting there. Thank you very much for your patience today. Thank you very much, sir. Ladies and gentlemen, we will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question, may please press star then one on your touchtone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star then two. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Anyone who wishes to ask questions, please press star then one. The first question is from Parash Jain from HSBC Markets. Please go ahead. Yes, sir. Thank you very much for the opportunity and congratulations for good set of numbers in challenging time. Few questions from my side. First, I think I wanted a clarification. You mentioned about some budget being 2.5x versus last year. Was that marketing and promotions which is what you mentioned? Hi, no, Parash Jain, this is technology spend. Okay. Technology spends have been growing, so that was higher by 20% this year. Okay. On top of that, we spoke about 2.5 x for the coming year approximately. Would this be an expense in P&L or would this be like, you know, capitalized on the balance sheet? It will be a combination. I mean, the overall outlay is both CapEx as well as OpEx. Bulk of it would be CapEx. Would you be able to quantify FY 2022 number? FY 2022 number would be in terms of CapEx of the order of about INR 60 odd crores. Thanks for the clarification. Couple of questions from my side. One, you know, we have again sort of reclassified revenues in our presentation, both in terms of, let's say, equity and the like as well as distribution. If you could help us understand, you know, how do we compare even Q on Q. Or sorry, how do we compare that with the previous classification? What has changed? Second question is in terms of client acquisition. While, you know, you mentioned that, you know, for the industry as a whole, you know, the addition has declined, and this is pretty much visible in some of the last years also. You know, the decline for us in terms of new clients, new active net client addition, has been, you know, a much sharper decline vis-à-vis, let's say, competitors, in this quarter. What would explain that sharper fall? Third question is in terms of your interest expense. While MTF and ESOP interest income has grown by about 1.6x what was last year, interest expenses have grown almost about 3x. What has driven that number? Last question is in terms of employee cost. Was there any one-off write back or something in the same quarter last year where the cost have sort of gone up from about INR 105 crore to INR 170 crore? These are the four questions which I have. Reclassification of revenue, slower than competition, you know, client addition, interest expenses and employee costs. Parash, let me try to take it in the reverse order. Those answers are fairly straightforward. Yes, last year, if you remember our commentary, we had a slightly up-fronted variable cost for the first time. As a result of this, Q4 was relatively lower than the run rate. In fact, our cost-to-income ratio, employee cost-to-income ratio was one of the lowest in Q4, which was 20%. We had given a guidance that a more normalized number is of the order of about 23%-25%. Against that normalized number, the increase is primarily on account of growth in the employee base and increments. That is the answer to the fourth one. Now let me go to the third one, where you're saying that the interest income increase is on account of two parameters. Number one is, as you rightly said, growth in NPS and loan book. The second is also that we have interest income increase because of FDs that we place with exchanges, and those FDs have to keep on increasing as the volumes keep on increasing. So that is the interest income on account of FDs. Both of them put together is showing that growth of which is three times. Your third question- Sorry, when you say 3x, my question was that INR 30 crore, you know, the interest expense has gone up to about INR 90 crore. I sort of couldn't understand what you are trying to say in terms of FD. Our FDs with the exchanges that we've put, you know, we would. Is there any expense that you are plugging over here? I couldn't understand, actually, to be honest. Let me tell you. On the interest income. Right. We have two line items. One is interest income that we generate from NPS loan books, basically. Okay. This is one, interest income. The second interest income is from the savings deposit that we place with exchanges. Okay. These two line items which impact the overall interest income. Right. On the expense side, the borrowing which funds both these line items, basically commercial paper borrowing, which comes under finance cost. Okay. The finance cost increase is for both these line items. Okay. That is my understanding. Okay. If I look at NII level. Yeah. What would be growth at NII number? If I take those two back out of these expenses. Yeah. On a NII basis, the growth would be primarily the growth that you are seeing in the NPS interest component. Okay. That would be the growth. Okay. Sure. Because FD and commercial paper borrowing would be almost even Steven, so there is no negative carry or a positive carry. Okay. Sure. Moving on to your third question, which if I remember, was on account of slower growth in NSE active, if I remember that is where you are vis-à-vis players. As you rightly said, one is a bit of a moderation that we have seen in Q4 in the market and in most of the players. I mean, you've seen month-on-month for January, February, etc., the numbers have been softer. That is one theme. The second theme, as we have been articulating, is that we are focusing on improving the quality of the mix and consciously we are wanting to have a scale which helps us to improve the mix of the sourcing. After which we want to scale. That has been a conscious effort, because of which you have seen a slightly more delta vis-à-vis some of the other players. Would it be also because if I look at attrition from the client acquisition, you know this quarter is slightly higher for us, the drop out of the clients at the net level. I'm just trying to calculate open plus, you know, whatever you have added, which is about 618,000 and closing is about INR 3.03 billion. Dropout would be roughly about 3.4 lakh which is significantly higher than what we have seen in the past. Parash, in fact, our emphasis on quality is from this particular aspect that, you know, once a client does even a first transaction, getting a second transaction is where, you know, this parameter of quality comes into it. Once now we have got an experience of, let's say, 12 months, 13 months, of the sourcing, higher scale of sourcing, we are trying to gauge the channel which gives us more sustainable quality. That is the reason why, yes, you see the higher drop-off, and that is also leading to our conscious effort of improving the mix before scaling. Sure. Lastly on the reclassification. Yeah. Reclassification, let me clarify once again. I think you are referring to the retail equity and allied which is one line item. We have always been saying that retail equity and allied is our total income from equity businesses. We also upload apart from the presentation, we upload a very detailed Excel spreadsheet which gives you all sub breakups. The point that we wanted to make was that the INR 521 crore that you are seeing for retail equity and allied, that is the total income that we have been able to generate in our equities business, and it includes the income that we earn from broking, the interest income, the charges that we have and it has to be seen together. That's why the way we look at it and, that's why what you see at an allied level is consistent. It is INR 527 crores and INR 521 crores. These are the two numbers. The breakup between broking and our allied is also there, detailed as per our disclosure. I think there is even change in the institutional brokerage number also, which this quarter you have reported at about INR 63 crore. In this presentation, the previous quarter number is about INR 69 crore. If I look at our, you know, Q2 presentation, that number in that presentation was only about INR 44 crore. Similarly, if I look at even distribution online by pages, there has been change. Has there been change across for several line items? Here even in the institutional equity business, what institutional equity business does is two types of business. One is the flow business and second is it also helps in the corporate finance fees or investment banking fees. There is a revenue sharing which is an industry practice. That is what is all the allied income which also the details are available in the disclosure. This is what we started from the last quarter with the- Sure. Thank you so much. That's it from my side. Sure. Thank you. Next question is from Prayesh Jain from Motilal Oswal. Please go ahead. Hi, Prayesh. First, on the corporate demand side, you mentioned that the recurring segment is growing. Could you give some color as to what is the share of that recurring segment right now? And how do you see this business shaping up in FY 2023? You know, you have a good pipeline of deals in store but looking at the market conditions, the risk of a decline in the revenue from this segment, t hat's the first question. Second, on the NPF book, with market volatility increasing, will you take a call to reduce the income or reduce the lending on this side of the book? Thirdly, on the distribution side, do you think that like, the growth momentum that we've seen will continue in next year as well? Sorry, Prayesh, if I may just bother you to repeat the last question if you can, I missed that. Thank you. Basically I was asking. Sorry. The distribution income, what is the kind of action you expect in the next year? If I can answer your first question on the confidence side and a bit of predictability there. You know, what we are doing also is, you know, given our dominance in the equity capital markets, the 37% market share last year, what we have built, you know, invested in building up on the advisory side, which is the private M&A, and we are seeing traction. That kind of gives a bit more stability on the incomes while continuing our, you know, dominance on the equity capital markets side. Oh. Prayesh, could I move on? Hello. Any questions? Do you have any follow-up? Basically I wanted to understand actually from, say, in FY 2022, what will be the kind of revenue you would have to go and rest others if you can give that? Overall revenue we have disclosed which is it was INR 65 crore for the quarter. Mm-hmm. As compared to INR 110 crores. Mm-hmm. Within that predominantly it is capital market activity that is definitely our key strength. There we have a strong pipeline. About INR 870 billion is our pipeline. A lot of deals with strong lead mandates. As Ajay commented, I mean, it will depend on how things evolve. Yeah, that is our strength and market share over there is important, which is where we have worked towards and tried to scale. Sure. Okay. Prayesh, if I were to move to your question on MTF. Now, MTF with a bit of an uncertain environment, our endeavor. MTF is a product strategically that we have been focusing on. It has given us dividends in terms of revenue diversification. It also is a key source of attracting customers with high value base. Going forward, our endeavor would continue to be to focus on this product with diversification as a theme and broad basics. Reduced concentration, broad base, have more number of customers, increased penetration, these are the themes. But per se, the product is something that we are focusing on and we in fact intend to scale it up even further. Okay. Just following up on that, there is also ESOP funding in that that's in between. ESOP funding in that will be seen in next year, right? What will be that from? ESOP funding right now is roughly about INR 1,300 crore out of the total INR 7,500 crore, 500 crore are received. It is a bit of a rundown. Next year we should expect it to have a bit of a slow downhill because of the regulatory changes with the different platforms. Right now funding is at about INR 1,300 crore. Next year it could be much lower than this. It would try to be. Mm-hmm. Maybe half of that. That, that's reasonable to assume. Okay. Got that. Vishal wanted to add on MTF side. Yeah. As you said, that market volatility also has a role to play. I just wanted to, you know, keep everyone informed that we have a risk governance system and all the positions which are open are governed by that. If you go back March 2020, actually we brought down the book by almost, you know, 40%-45% keeping in mind the market conditions, et c.. However, when we saw the opportunity to scale up, I mean, we immediately put all levers in place and quarter-on-quarter we added, you know, to the funding amount. We have adequate margins and as Harvinder said that the effort is, you know, how many more stocks we add so that the risks get diversified among quality stocks and also how many more customers we add so there is no concentration on a particular set of customers. Prayesh, also you had a question on distribution traction and what we can expect in the coming year. Mm-hmm. Our focus consistently over the last many quarters has been to diversify our revenue. Distribution has shown good growth. We are seeing improving traction on many products, mutual funds, insurance, loans, fixed income, et cetera. These are some of the products which did well. Our focus is to build up this particular franchise. The loan book, which is building up insurance where, there are partnerships that we are trying to do. We are getting more platforms, insurers, manufacturers on our platform, and also digitizing journey. These are some of the initiatives that we are taking. Our endeavor is to improve and build up traction in this across all products. Okay, t hat's it. Thank you. Thank you. The next question is from Aditya Jain from Citigroup. Please go ahead. Thank you. A few data points. Could you give us a breakdown of the total INR 373 crore of brokerage revenue into retail and institutional? If you look at retail brokerage and for quarter-over-quarter, it's about INR 325 crore for retail brokerage and institutional brokerage would be INR 48 crore. This is the brokerage income. As I clarified earlier, retail and institutional business revenue is about INR 521 crore, institutional- Institutional is the amount you gave that including IPS? Yes, that's right. That's about INR 13.8 crores of allied + INR 48 crores of brokerage, totaling up to INR 63 crores of institutional business. Could you tell us the number of new subscribers and operational accounts? I know that specifically you haven't mentioned this number for a couple of quarters, but if it makes sense to share the number of operational accounts and the newer subscribers now. Yeah. One, in terms of the data point per se, offline also, I will direct you to our disclosures which is a separate link that we have, where all these data, including historical data, is there. The new customer base is now 2.2 lakh right now as of quarter end. The total client base, again, is disclosed over there as 11.6 million. Got it. I was looking in the wrong portion of the website, I guess. Okay. Two qualitative things. One, the API business which you are building more. How does monetization in that happen? Is it like some sort of a bulk pricing? Is it volume related? Just broadly put and how it works. Sort of in a similar way, in the partnership with CoverFox, how does that work now? Which part of revenue will it enhance? API monetization is again by way of, you know, the brokerage which customers generate and also the allied income. Just two-month-old initiative, and as Vijay said that we have crossed 2,000 customers. When we look at the initial patterns, we see that the number of orders have grown almost 2x in the same period, right? It is a kind of, you know, nudging customers on various opportunities, giving those opportunities to customers, and customers are able to entice that. That is how we see, you know, the monetization happening. We are adding many features first of this kind of, I mean, secret in the industry, like giving historical data, one-minute candles, etc., which is not the extent of the industry standard so far. We also want to bring, you know, the complete, backtesting model also and specifically which customers can find using our platform. I'm sure that the volume and the brokerage plus allied income will justify the monetization. Aditya, just to kind of further elaborate. We have various plans. API would be a manner of transacting from the customer to us, depending on whichever plan the customer has chosen. For example, if he's a new customer versus a Prime customer or life completed, depending on whatever plan he has chosen, the brokerage will be charged on that, on overall volume that is done through API or directly, either way. We don't have as of now any plan which is a bulk pricing, one payment, unlimited volume plan. Got it. Thank you. Any insurance, right? Sorry. Your second question was with respect to CoverFox. There the partnership with CoverFox is executed to help our insurance business. They are helping us build a technology interface with our assisted digital journey for both general insurance, health insurance, some of those products which we are focusing on. Our expectation is that that is where the action should be. The partnership is CoverFox being our technology provider and us doing the marketing. That is the partnership. A customer of ISEC would buy insurance on the ISEC platform just because CoverFox already has linkages with insurers. You could leverage the platform through them to offer that insurance plan to the customers. Is that the right way? Yeah, that's right. The way we have worked out this partnership is that we have kind of agreed a kind of a revenue share with them. That jointly both the players will work towards creating or scaling up this business. That is the way we have designed the commercial. What you're saying is right. We modulate some partner journey and are doing the-r elease our line. Yeah. Yeah. To elaborate, considering what you have explained it today, right, for our partnerships, CoverFox is giving us a specific UIUX customized for us, and he packages it up with our partners using our license. He's just a SaaS provider. Mm. Right? That is the intent. Whoever are our insurance distribution partners, the pipes are connected only with those insurance partners and not connected with the you know the general insurer partners that we have, the health insurance partners that we have. As and when we launch life, it will be the life insurance partners that we have. They are ICICI Securities partners that would be on the platform. All right. The broker on record will be ICICI Securities. Correct. for insurance policy and not CoverFox. Correct. Yeah. Just to clarify, technical term would be corporate agent. Broker technically is a different term in insurance world. Okay. We have a corporate agent license and not a broker license. Correct. Thank you. Next question is from Karthik Sawhney from Mirae Asset Management. Please go ahead. Hi, sir. Thank you for this chance. I just want to ask one question that would be around your spend that you're aiming at deploying pilots compared to FY 2022. You said that this will be a mix of both CapEx and OpEx. I just want to understand what will be your cost to income, given it's 49% right now and your target being around 30% if I'm not wrong? Give me some color on that, please. Yeah, sure. Karthik, this spend will enhance the cost-income ratio maybe for the next year. We have been working on this earlier as well, that a journey to 30% or a much, I mean, higher operating leverage compared to today might go through a slight increase before it starts coming down because we are investing in couple of areas in the coming year. We could see an expansion further up from the current 29% in the coming year before it starts trending down. All right. Thank you. Thank you. The next question is from Aejas Lakhani from Unifi Capital. Please go ahead. Hi, team ICICI. Congratulations on the results. Two quick questions. One is, I'd like to understand your thoughts on how or why a trader will come and trade on the platform more? What is the key driving metric? If my understanding is correct, you guys have the best rate on the NSE industry and that provides leverage. Despite that, you know, we're not able to follow incremental derivative market share. Can you just expand a bit on that front? That is my crucial product, the way I understand. Yeah. See, every product on ICICI Direct will be treated as a separate customer segment, right? Be it cash, be it PMS, be it intraday equity trading or derivatives. Within derivatives again, futures is a separate market for us and options is a completely different market. Now, the effort is in each and every product, how do we create that niche with customers, you know, which adds value to customers. We have looked at each and every product, I mean, as I said, at all these five, six products and tried to add, you know, features, tools for attractiveness in terms of rates. Also, you know, the other important commercial parameters like interest, et cetera. On derivatives, number of initiatives we have taken apart from the new pricing in terms of tools, in terms of APIs. Even in the current quarter, when we looked at the initiative, I think we have completely simplified the derivatives journey on our website. We have also simplified our journey on market chat. We have added number of tools and it is getting traction, like One Click Derivatives, which is a readymade strategy execution tool, which otherwise users will find it very difficult, you know, to do in a segmented way, the execution of that strategy. That also is getting traction. Like another initiatives like Option Expert APIs, where we are trying to give set of data and also connectivity which is not the market norm so far. I mean, it is completely at a different level and we keep adding value to that. I think on derivatives segment, as far as price is concerned, I think the client is the key proposition there. We have added a new attractiveness with bringing lifetime Prime plans now. Just two months and we have seen a very healthy adoption rate, you know, from the dormant customers, from the new customers and also customers who want to explore our products more, you know, like PMS, et c., and needs that absolutely fine commercial terms. That's what our endeavor is, that each and every product should be looked at as a separate market, separate customer segment, and we should fine-tune each and everything what matters to customers. No, that I like that. Also on the derivatives side, I just want to understand since switching costs are low, what is it that, you know, that segment would require from us that we were lacking today which causes the shift, right? Is it platform? Because the trader is already used to executing his trades on a different platform. Is it price that is a determinant to, for him to move or is it features or what exactly is that you have that you didn't have earlier? Yeah. I'll just add to what Vishal said. What Vishal was basically saying is that every sort of product that you're trying to offer to your customer, you need to have a winning proposition around it, right? You create an entire ecosystem supporting that product so that it gives the customer a winning feeling and you a winning outcome. With respect to derivatives, there are four items required to win in our assessment, right? A trader always looks for low cost. It's a high volume, low margin business. Therefore, all types of costs that he incurred, hidden, non-hidden, direct, not indirect, has to be the lowest. That attracts him. The second is it's a fast need. He wants a platform which is fast, responsive, salient, giving him easy and free access and multiple platforms to access. The features that he expects on each platform has to be consistent, right? That would be the second. I would summarize all this by calling it a great experience. Third, he needs tools to win. Today, you know, tech has given the ability to create a number of tools which translate his strategies into simple trades which he enters in which he gets a, you know, outcome which can be sort of executed at a very short notice. I'll call this as tools to win. The fourth is APIs and algos because when he creates his own front end, then he uses that as an execution platform. These are the four sort of elements that are required. We have actually been investing in some of the other areas to modernize, to upgrade, to improve. You would have seen that on equity side we've been able to successfully do that and we have seen gains in market share. It would be fair to say that, you know, we made a rather late start with respect to derivatives. You know, we were able to give that higher market share in the past because of the extra leverage that we were able to take given, you know, what was possible in the pre-peak margin norm. It is only after or around the peak margin norm that, you know, real proposition investment started beyond, you know, the leverage proposition. Pricing that piece is significantly done and getting absorbed in the market. Great experience is about seven or eight months old today. I mentioned that, you know, there are many more refinements doing. You will never make the Taj Mahal in the first go. But we have a good app now. Good acceptance. You know, close to 1 million downloads in the Markets App alone together with our Money App it's crossed much more than 1 million. We are seeing a good start creating there. Tools to win. You know, I elaborated there are several tools that have been added and more tools are coming. But these tools are all, you know, I would say three-month to four-month-old tools in platform. So there is still familiarity which is going on. So there is a lot more marketing and communication efforts that we need to do. Then finally, APIs and Algos. Algos is yet to be launched. It's gonna be a Q1 launch. APIs have been launched a few days back, maybe a couple of weeks back, and we've got 1000+ traders sort of taking that execution. If you really look, we are a youngster in this field, and I, it may sound a little strange to hear this from me, but the fact is that in these areas we have our investments are a few months old. You know, we remain, you know, we are gonna invest on fundamentals, we are gonna invest on investment, input parameters. We are quite confident because we've been able to invest in input parameters and we got an output parameter on other side. This is one area where we have not got the output parameter. I must say it is disappointing. It's disappointing for all of us. It pains us a lot. We remain totally committed on building these capabilities into the company so that the trader feels that he's got a very ecosystem journey. You know, that's the eventual sort of a play. Have we seen green shoots? Definitely we are seeing green shoots because we are seeing on a daily basis improving number of trades, increasing number of, you know, Algolgo orders and so on and so forth. Yeah, it's got to translate into gain at a faster clip than what we have seen for sure. There's no running away from that and that's what we are committed for. We hope that, you know, during the course of this, you know, year, we'll be able to really cross that hurdle. Thanks, Vijay Chandok. It's very helpful. Just one question to you, that you know, we've seen you know, month-on-month additions in clients as high as 2 lakh and then probably at the lower end because we are choosing the channel mix like you have rightly called out for quarters. In terms of the run rate of clients, what is the number that we should sort of be thinking around? Is it more on the more recent clients? Is that how you're looking at client additions? Or is it that once you figure out all of this, the acceleration will take place in the latter half of the year? Yeah. I think there is no perfect answer for this. Sure, sure. Yeah. Let me quickly tell you how I'm thinking about it, how all of us are thinking about it. The pullback in numbers it would be fair to say is a deliberate pullback. The reason why we pulled back is because we said at that time, okay, like I probably would have explained on earlier calls to people, digital acquisition is not an amorphous acquisition. There are at least five or six top channels of acquisition. Each top channel has got its own cost and its own behavior characteristics and its own, you know, participation in the market. Obviously, out of the five, not all five are of the same quality and caliber. Some channels are really good, some channels are really bad. As it would be natural, in you know, anything which is giving you not so good quality is probably the easiest for any, you know, team member to acquire. In the initial stages of our growth, we got a mix which was not, you know, certainly not optimal. We've learned that you know, the good channels now that we have about five, six, seven quarters of data with us. Clearly there are you know, what we call green channels, orange channels and red channels. Red channels we are suppressing, which means that you know, some of the clients which were coming of not so good quality are just being sort of shut off. Orange and the green channels are the channels that we are pushing the accelerator on. These are tougher channels to acquire, but we have to invest in this. We will continue to invest. We are in the ballpark of around 200,000 per month kind of a rate. You know, I mean, at this point in time, we are broadly running with that kind of a run rate but it's a review on a quarterly basis. This number, you know, is something that we can ramp up and ramp down based on, you know, how the market is sort of giving us a lead and how our own, you know, behavior is coming. We are running right now, as I told you, at a broadly 2 lakh per month kind of a run rate, reviewed on a fortnightly basis. We obviously, you know, in the quest for quality, we cannot be giving up, you know, the growth numbers also. We are conscious of this and trying to just do a balancing act right now. If we have more traction, we will, you know, adjust as the tide changes. Got it, sir. We should think of the 600,000 a quarter as a benchmark. At least sometimes will be activation journey start. Got it. Thanks, sir. No, I'm taking 15, give or take time. Yeah, got it, sir. Got it. Thank you, sir. Thank you. Next question is from the line of Arjun Agarwal from IIFL. Please go ahead. Yeah, hi. Thanks for giving me a question. Am I audible? Yes. Yeah. I just had a couple of questions around overall revenue growth. I think if I just look at the retail brokerage line, I think you've grown 2% YOY in FY 2022. Now, this is despite the +90% growth in NSE active clients. I understand the equity volumes have come down this year. Overall, what is the outlook on the broking revenue? I'm just talking about broking, not DC and allied mixture. In conjunction with our overall revenue growth from what we gather from the call, you seem to scale up on the interest income with the NCFS on the distribution side. On the issuer side, you'll probably see some sort of decline. Along with the broking revenue, what is the sort of overall revenue and broking revenue trend that you are seeing going forward? Yeah. Let's take this broking revenue. When we started this journey of transformation, we said that, you know, we want to move away from this product-centric sort of focus to a client-centric focus. What we find in the market is that the way in which customers are charged for performing an equity transaction is based on the services that you avail, right? While the act of brokerage is low or zero, there are several other services that they perform, like fund movements, fund transfers, you know, various other stuff that a customer does in terms of taking a position, putting up, you know, margins, shares as margins. Each activity is charged separately. This is what we call. We never used to charge our clients like this in the past.. We have consciously said we will move away from being fixated on broking as the sole way of collecting revenue from customers, and we did broking and aligned the way others were charging in the market and moving to an activity-based style of pricing. We are in a way, you know, it's a journey of moving from one side to another side. We are moving into this kind of a format, judging us on broking singularly would not make sense because we are deflating our broking revenue and we are increasing our, you know, allied revenue to make the business model more robust. You have to view us as a system like this, because as we are deflating broking revenue, please understand we are getting closer and closer to test pricing in the market, and we are still managing to hold our you know revenue growth. In fact, we have seen continuous growth in our overall revenue, right? Please view us because we are seeing this as a combination and not as a you know singular you know or two different blocks t hat's one point. With that background, you know, we are focusing on input parameters. We are focusing on increasing market share. What is gonna happen in this year, I think you are wanting to know what's likely to be the outlook. I mean, I can tell you input parameters will get all its attention. If markets are going to be supported, you should be completely patient. If markets are not, then you will obviously bear the consequence of what would happen. As far as issuer business is concerned, you have to see that issuer business is approximately between 15%-20% of our total revenue and profit pool. Size of it, in fact, could be, you know, to that extent limited. At least I would say about 15%-25% of that is not necessarily linked with capital market activity because it's slow business, as I said, and somebody else has also asked. Our efforts are to keep increasing that share so that the dependency on the issuer services improves further. On an overall basis, obviously, we are planning for both in the context of tough market conditions. We hope that we will be able to deliver that, because, you know, we clearly see that right now headwinds are there in terms of what the markets are offering in front of us. However, we strongly believe focus on input parameters, keep your operating leverages in place, keep your expenses very low. That's another thing that we are focusing so as to be able to manage your performance based on market conditions, and not really become a slave to a completely high fixed cost angle. Our fixed costs as a percentage of total costs have actually continued to show a decline trend quarter-on-quarter, including this quarter. Sure, sure. Fair enough. Thanks, Vijay. Point two, one way to look at revenue, I'll just basically combining all what you said, the growth you said in terms of revenue. Would that be mid-single-digit or double-digit? Any sort of indication on that front? It will be difficult in our kind of sector to have any kind of a projection. As Vijay said, I mean, our focus areas would be this. I mean, we have seen almost double digit on a very strong level through growth last two years. I mean, it completely depends on a lot of factors. Our experience. Let me give you some past data. In our type of business, thinking of one year, six months kind of a guidance is very difficult. I can tell you what happened over 10 years and, you know, taken in blocks of three years. In 10 years and taken in blocks of three years, you will always find that there has been any year, any part of the, you know, previous blocks of three years, you will find that the CAGR of profits have been at least, 17%, 18% during this decadal phase. The revenue growth has been in the ballpark of 60%-40%, that kind of a range. Profits have been between 17% and 25%. That's a decadal experience which came over a block of three years, any three contiguous years. That is the trend. We do believe that, you know, that kind of a trend should be maintained, should be sort of there in our business model. On top of that, we are trying to reduce the volatility to have more predictability compared to, you know, non-equity revenue, which is, you know, again, an area of focus. You know, taking guidance from me for the next six months, nine months, one year would be very tough. Input parameters will keep improving. View this business in a block of three years. Any three contiguous years and you will get a growing, regularly growing trend. Sure. Fine. Those are my questions. Thank you. Thank you. Next question is from Sahej Mittal from HDFC Securities. Please go ahead. Yeah, hi. Good evening, everyone, and congratulations on a great trade. First, my couple of questions from my side. Firstly, just wanted to get a sense on what are the number of orders executed in average in a single day now on your iTrade platform tab, if you could put out that number. The second one was around how are the new investors faring in such volatile markets, compared to customers which iTrade already has? Are these customers making profits in the F&O segment or, you know, how is the trend looking like? The third one was around what was the marketing spend in Q4 and for the full year and what's the target for FY 2023? Yeah. Hi, Sahej. Harvinder here. On the first one, Sahej, as of now we've not put out the number of orders on this. As Vijay said in the past also in due course, I mean, we will keep on adding to the disclosures which we have done in this quarter as well. As of now we've not put out that number. Second, your question was that how are the new and the younger guys faring in terms of whether they are making profits or not. I'll just request Vishal Gulechha to comment. See, our approach is, you know, to take customers through a very, very disciplined approach, be it any product. In cash, like we encourage customers to go by our research recommendations. We have given about 135 recommendations in the Q4 with a success rate of about 75%. In derivatives also a product like One Click Derivatives, you know, where strict stop losses are followed, hedge positions are created. However, I mean, the market is very, very spread out, so customers do take their own decisions. At times, I mean, decisions go right, at times decisions go wrong. But as long as they follow a very, very disciplined approach and guided by research, I think we have seen gains in customer portfolio, be it mature or be it the younger ones who are coming to the market now. As I tried in my earlier discussion that, you know, we try to come out with such research recommendations in any product. Whether it be, you know, directional calls or directional positions in cash or derivatives, as well as, you know, MTF kind of a product where the portfolio is suggested, you know, for the positions. The effort is to keep customers in a very, very strict disciplined environment. The anecdotal experience is that the customers make on average are not losing money on the F&O side. Not on the cash side, but my concern is on the F&O side particularly. Yeah. I mean, the market also has to be supportive. In derivatives market we see that maximum customers are on the buying side of options, so they anyway limit their losses. When they gain, of course, options is a great tool to give a return. When they lose and being a buyer of options, I mean, we don't see much downside for those customers because of the limiting nature of the products. We do see the trend that most of the customers are taking a long position. Is that right? Let me just give you two data points here. You have two types of customers. Customers who follow, you know, tools or recommendations given by us. B, customers who do not follow rules and regulations but do their own thing. C, who do a bunch of, you know, combination of both. What we are seeing is that if you belong to the first bucket where you almost always follow the recommendations or tools given by us on myiLink, correct? We have a success rate of about 70%-75%. Therefore, if you're following 100% of all of this, you will invariably end up on the positive side. That's data point number one. If you are doing this, you know, completely on your own, then, you know, it would be whatever, you know, your skill and trade has resulted in positive or negative outcome. What is really happening, I'll give you another data point. Number two, if you are a new customer, it will be very similar to the second one. Invariably, when people lose money, they lose interest in markets and they drop out. One way to look at it is that are you seeing a kind of a fluctuating or a declining trend of traders on your platform? That is in a way an indicator in an indirect way of people, you know, whether they are making money or no. We should see continuous month-on-month an increasing trend of traders on our platform. You know, if you have too many people making too many losses, you will definitely see a decline in that number. At least so far we have not seen. As Vishal Gulechha said, the margins are, you call it, through our tools like iAlert, where we even alert customers from risky trades happening. I would suspect people, if you are following, you know, that trade, they should be by and large making money and should be happy. Oh, got it. On the marketing spend? Yeah. The marketing spend for the quarter were of the order of about INR 30 crores. We are kind of spending on above-the-line marketing as well as digital marketing, etc.. All put together is about INR 30 crores. This expense that we have called out, along with technology expense are two things where we do expect growth next year as well. This INR 30 crore number for the full year would be? Yeah, about INR 100 crore upon path. Where do we see this number trending for the next, say FY 2023 and FY 2024, maybe FY 2022? Difficult to kind of give exact number, but as I said that, in- Give it close. Yeah. It will be on a daily growth in this. Ahead of expenses, overall expense growth. We are looking to invest in brand building, both below and above the line, in various property, not necessarily television and, you know, press, et c.. We are also quite heavily investing in above-the-line digital investments, digital properties, digital sort of marketing space. That is therefore an area of investment that we are looking forward to go ahead and do. Got it. Lastly on the tech spend. What would be the hit on the P&L of the tech spend in Q2 and FY 2022? Harvinder just called out that there were some INR 600 crores of CapEx, INR 60 crores of CapEx in FY 2022. What would be the hit on the P&L in Q2 and FY 2022, if you could give us that number? For OpEx, which is P&L operating expense, it would be of the order of about INR 20 crore-INR 25 crore. This would be for the full year? No, for the quarter you asked, right? Okay. For the full year, in the range of INR 100 crores? About it, yes. Got it. Where would you know, so this INR 30 crore of marketing expense, do you consider the expense as a variable expense line item when you are classifying your fixed versus your variable expense and you close that in your investment? Where do you take this expense line item? Yeah. Part of it, yes. Because a part of it is also on acquisition, the digital client acquisition, the marketing that we do on various properties. So that part we have classified as variable. But a part of that is fixed, which is to do with you know, above the line or any marketing or brand building spend. So acquisition is anything which is for sales is variable for acquisition and anything which is for brand building, that's fixed. Broadly. Got it. On the recurring expenses in the investment banking side, 70% is close, about 70% is recurring in nature. Was that number right? 75%. 70% is our market share in the ECM for our investment banking business. Excuse me just one second. We've lost Sahej for the current part. Sahej? Other participants who would like to ask questions, please press star then one. As you do. The next question is from Himanshu Taluja from Envision Capital. Please go ahead. Hi, sir. Thanks for the opportunity. Just one question on my end. Some of the new entrant players have actually come with a new way of pricing that a recent launch by one of the players of trade online is a one-time payment where you get the unlimited trades across all, whether it's cash or whether it's the F&O or the commodity segment. Just wanted to know the way the pricing dynamic is changing in the industry from a volume-based to a flat-fee model and now to a one-time probably, how you see this specifically. What's your view around it? Actually, you know, competition on pricing has been there for now five-six years. We continue to see one more year. We have a bunch of, I think 100+ players who are now on those 101 players. It will continue. I think competition in tech industry is gonna be very, very high. Two characteristics we have observed. There is stickiness in this business. Number two, you also find that new market opportunities are sort of growing. You have newcomers coming. There is enough opportunity and space to grow. Number three, pricing is important, but it's not the, you know, it's not gonna give you growth if you don't have an entire ecosystem created around it. It's not easy. We've seen people struggle to create that whole ecosystem. You know, you take our own example. You give a, you know, pricing and you've seen that, you know, derivatives, unless you create an entire ecosystem, you know, your ability to garner after the market is gonna be tough. It's about ecosystem. We've been able to do that at Upstox because we started our investment journey in creating that ecosystem earlier. It's about creating that whole ecosystem. You have to get the whole, you know, gamut so that it gets the whole thing in one place., t hat is not an easy game for everyone. You need deep understanding of the nuances of this market. Yes, competition will be there and, you know, we have to take that competition running from that sense. You know, as a business model, therefore we are diversifying business model, therefore we are looking to also deflate our broking revenue, and I talked a little bit about that earlier, so that we, you know, get more competitive than we are at this point in time with respect to the equity business. You need to understand that when you keep deflating, you know, one part of the business as you scale other aspects of revenue, you know, and broking, which happens on the intraday side and F&O side, if you are able to create scale, you can create massive profits and very few people will be able to do that. That happens only if you have scale, not otherwise. Yeah. Because the reason I'm asking you this is, especially for the high volume traders, you know, this kind of a pricing makes a lot of economic sense for the. Probably that could be the pricing that you're looking to create pricing pressure for the other players. That's why I sort of. It is what I said. You know, in terms of pricing, we offer zero pricing on futures and there is no INR 999 to join also. Okay. With zero pricing on futures, that is INR 20 on intraday and INR 20 on options. Pricing alone is not enough. Pricing is table stakes today. You need to provide the entire ecosystem to win. Yeah. No, 100%. Thank you, sir. Thanks for that. The next question is from Sanketh Godha from Spark Capital. Please go ahead. Yeah. Thanks for the opportunity. Actually, when we see income breakdown, the big driver of this growth in the current year was all the interest income from NCF which almost doubled in the current year. Given now the interest rates are going to be more volatility in the market and we have maybe much higher duration securities than what we have in the past. This is where the diversification strategy was- Yeah. Just incrementally to grow this stream, and probably add some upfront meaningfully very targeted initiatives or even in 2021, do you see a clear story of monetization in this revenue line as you're going ahead? And probably I wanted to understand how Upstox contribute to the interest rates when they take ETF or ETF or call, how the interest calls are made? You know, given that, given the we were one of the one of. It was one of the lowest interest rates what was offered during last four quarters or six quarters generally? Yeah. Can actually we have the ability to absorb a slightly higher pricing? The answer is, yes. It is possible to absorb a slightly higher pricing than where we are. Would we be increasing pricing? We are not considering increasing pricing, but one is also seeing, you know, the movements that are happening in the interest rates in the market, so it is dependent on market. If markets are actually going to, you know, bump up rates on the cost side, then we will be responsive and we will, you know, do something on the cost side. If that is going to impact market, you know, I would say that the interest rate is not a singular determinant. Supposing I would have made it even 4% just for the sake, would it have grown? The answer is not, because of competition, it would have grown. If there is an opportunity that the investor finds to invest. When do they see this opportunity? They see this opportunity when there is volatility in the market and, you know, they have a conviction on a certain sort of a trade and that is sort of giving him a low entry opportunity. Volatility actually gives opportunity for investors to take decisions on MTF. It need not be one year, it can even take for a matter of few days. Yeah. Volatile situations are helping us grow. You know, the growth that we spoke when you remember Sanketh ’s quote, you were quite happy and excited about the growth. You yourself just said that, you know, we've seen a good growth from day one. Why is this growth coming? Today, if you look at our MTF book, whatever book that you are seeing on the table, we have only 60,000 customers using MTF. The total number of customers, traders are more than 1 million. Right. Will this grow 100%? You know, that could be a record, not by growing, you know, the book with one customer or two customer or 50,000 customer. I need to grow the book with 200,000 customers, 250,000 customers. Keep increasing that base. There is a lot of scope to penetrate beyond, you know, 60,000. That's how we will grow, not by increasing the risk of an individual customer. It's just 60,000 customers that I've got. This number sometime back was less than half. Yeah. Month-on-month timing is now 25,000? Yeah. It used to be less than four months back, five months back, it was nearly half that number. Now it is, you know, more than half that number. Got it, sir. Finally, just one small question. If you look at the Prime customer base, as a percentage of the total money under clients is coming down a bit, which means that incremental collection in the Prime versus what we are adding in the total base is relatively lower? Should we see that, because I'm beginning to find this is the most ARPU heavy customer. This lower collection in the Prime is somewhere having an impact on the broking or market share gain, which we are incurring this as an acceptable loss in the market? Maybe investors even know NEO despite launching for more than 1.one and half years, the number of people who are using NEO is still relatively small compared to Prime, which honestly is relatively lower compared to what we anticipated when the plan was launched, given the pricing we have? I just want to understand this part, if you come from R3 point and then NEO point, how it is playing out? Yeah. See, as far as Prime month on subscription is concerned, I will say that we had the best offer. I mean, Q4 was the best ever offer in terms of getting Prime subscription. Yes, there are customers, you know, who try out with a small value plan like INR 299, INR 259, you know. Perhaps considering the volume they may not even renew- Okay. They may also take a, you know, a plan like prepaid or the NEO. As we are, you know, creating more attractiveness in Prime, we see that more and more high-value customers are coming. We're not looking at the customer ARPU here, because as we discussed earlier also that it's not just about broking, it's about the total customer revenue, which is like broking and other incomes. Yes, because of the lower rates of yield, the E, you know, goes down, but at the same time, we are looking at the total revenues rather than looking at each element. Even equity you see or the capital market you see different products have different kind of yield. So it's actually not a yield business. As far as NEO and adoption is concerned, Prime and NEO, we have created in such a way that both the plans have their own attractiveness. Now, many derivative customers, thousands of them, despite we opening NEO for them, they continue to be in Prime because of the package which we offer. Simple thing, like today, if you take Prime, you know you don't have to move money to ICICI. I mean, say they continue to enjoy liquidity. They have that comfort of having money in their hands. They can use their shares as margin, and still they will not be charged any interest rate. It's a very, very fine, you know, kind of a package which Prime customers are getting, and at the same time they are loving our features like eATM or the MTF interest rate of 7.9%. We have to see. I mean, we have seen some impact, you know, post launching of our lifetime Prime plans. We have seen that many customers who otherwise would have gone from, you know, actually have gone for lifetime Prime and paying 0.1% brokerage in cash and also a very, very minimalistic brokerage in our options futures 0.07%-0.06% or kind of a lot. I mean, that is how we are trying to package these two plans to suit customers two different needs, and both are liking the propositions we offer in given as we said. Got it. If I look at the Prime user per customer in the first quarter, it has potentially increased from 770-odd to 800-odd. This is largely because people have shifted from equity management plan to a superior plan. About how much today you are seeing a similar number? Yeah. Both the things have happened. We have acquired more number of high-value customers from market. We have activated more number of customers from our dormant side, from non-payers, who we acquired already, but for some reason they did not pay. The second thing also, you know, our customers who earlier were in INR 299 doing less volume with us did not explore all our products on ICICI Direct. They are also willing. You know, having experienced this in a couple of years, they are willing now to pay bigger amount, take lifetime benefit and increase volume with us. It's, I mean, it's both. It's adoption of the new plan by existing customers, as well as getting new customers from market and activation of the old non-payers and slow payers. Okay. Done. That's it for myself. Thank you. Thank you. This is everyone. This is the last question from the line of Aditya Jain from Citigroup. Please go ahead. Thank you. Just wanted to check on the plans which you mentioned today on tech spend and marketing spend. What led to the development of this view? Is it, you know, a capacity issue for HDFC, you know, long time to come? Or is it a different approach to that, you know, higher spend which is required, given the, you know, the change? Just what the thought process there and what will be the success defining points that you will look for that this, the tech and marketing spend has been successful? What kind of goals you would look for? Secondly, in one of the slides, the cash market share, not the retail one, but total, is going from 8.3%-10.2%, quarter-over-quarter. You talked about retail trends, but that is pretty visible. Is this reflecting very strong institutional cash market share and what is that driving, that being different? Yeah. That is why this. For the first time we have given you market share of total, right? Earlier you were getting a combined market share between retail and institutional combined. This number, the trend that we showed you of 9.8 going to 10.1, is a 30 basis point retail market share. It has nothing to do with our institutional. Just to clarify that, Aditya. Right? No, I was looking at the data on slide 31, which is total equity market share, 8.3%-10.2% quarter-over-quarter. Given that retail estimated, as you put in the slide, is 10+ basis point increase, this one percentage point quarter-over-quarter should be reflecting institutional market share. That's why I was looking at it. Aditya, I think just kindly ignore that slide 31. There seems to be a typo over there. Correct. Sorry, Aditya. You should refer to that disclosure file where I'll just read out the number on the blended equity market share, which was the earlier one, not the retail one, as you rightly asked, is 8.9% for this particular quarter four, and 10.1% is the equivalent number for FY 2018. There shouldn't be any institutional issue. On technology and marketing spend, I think your question was where are we going to incur these spends, right? So my- Let me clarify. What led to the, you know, what made you feel that that sort of spend is required? And what are the goals that you would look for, in saying that those spends have been successful? You know, better quality lead acquisition or, you know, in whatever way you find it best to design those metrics. The question is, why are we doing this? We are doing this because two reasons, three reasons, I would say. Number one, it gives us capacity enhancement, right? There is capacity enhancement, the ability to handle more number of clients than we are able to handle. Secondly, today our entire architecture, tech architecture is on-prem. We are moving into a hybrid model, right? The advantage of moving into a hybrid model is that it variablizes our costs based on market conditions. Today it is not a part of the cost. The technology cost is not variable. It can variablize. The fact that it is now moving to a cloud environment gives us a lot more agility in new developments, partnerships, all of those. It gives us greater agility. Launch to market, product to market today, which takes sometimes months for us to, you know, hit the market. You could have probably seen, you know, how much time it has taken for us to come out with various propositions on the derivatives side, as an example. You know, these would have been much faster had we been on a cloud kind of an environment than what it is today, t hat's the sort of advantage. The whole platform and tech architecture therefore becomes, you know, we are taking this opportunity to leapfrog into a, I think, a modern kind of an architecture which has variable cost structure, bigger capacity, and greater agility. Reliability and availability is another angle that, you know, is being, you know, is guiding us. That reliability and the availability of a modern data center, you know, it would add to this. All these four would be the, you know, I would say advantage. How does it benefit? I think it will benefit us in clearly providing a much superior customer experience. We have seen that when we get much superior customer experience, it eventually translates into A, improvement in net promoter score. B, improvement in cross-sells, and therefore, you know, revenues that arise out of non-subscription. C, better loyalty. I would add D, given attraction for more number of clients. It adds to it. All these are additive. You know, it's very difficult to attribute it on a one-to-one basis but these are elements which help all these four outcomes to happen. What would we expect out of this? I think we would eventually expect all these four outcomes, improved cross-sell, improved NPS, improved reduced downtime on the site, improved, I would say, you know, revenue and improved customer acquisition rate. All of this is what we would expect as an outcome. Marketing. As we said, there are two types of marketing that we do. One is what is direct for client acquisition, and the second is the marketing, which is digital marketing. The second is the marketing spend that we do above the line, which is for brand building, awareness, product promotion and so on and so forth. We have very recently started doing, for several years we have not invested in that space at all. Why are we doing this? We are doing this because, you know, we have seen a lot of action happening in this space in the market. We have not sort of done anything in this space for a long time. Why did we not do this? We did not do this because we were busy modernizing a lot of features, busy modernizing a lot of stuff at our platform, and we felt that it should be done at a point in time when we are ready to receive customers with a promise that, you know, gets communicated and that promise has to be delivered on the platform. We have reached that kind of a stage where we feel, you know, confident to stand up and talk to the customer about features, talk about, you know, the things that we are talking to him, and he gets a great experience out of it. That's why you would have seen propositions getting sort of communicated on television above the line I'm talking about, on products like eATM. You would have seen a lot of ads on IPL in case you watched it. Then Pay Later which is basically NPS, our brand for NPS that we launched. We are adding more such, you know, colors. Complete Basket is another key platform brand which, you know, probably people know it by smallcase. We have our own smallcase we build it. We have created compelling propositions now to talk about. We feel this is the right time to communicate in a above the line fashion at least. That's why we are doing this. Right. Okay. I get your explanation. Thank you. Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, that was the last question. Now on the conference, Mr. Vijay Chandok for closing comments. Thank you very much. I think very, very intense and enjoyable conversation and very insightful questions on your side. Really appreciate you know, all the time that you spent on this. I'm sure there will be afterthoughts and questions to follow. We always available. Just ping in you know, all of us. Reach out to me, Harvinder, any of our IR guys, and we'll be happy to set up time and do a more detailed guidance as and when needed. Thank you very, very much once again, and thanks for all the support that you guys have been giving us. I really appreciate it. Good night. Thanks very much, sir. Ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of ICICI Securities this conference, we thank you all for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.