Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the C.E. Info Systems Limited Q4 and FY 2023 earnings call hosted by DAM Capital Advisors Limited. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen-only mode. There will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference, please signal an operator by pressing star then zero on your touchtone phone. Please note, this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Anmol Garg from DAM Capital. Thank you. Over to you, sir. Thank you, Darpin. Good afternoon, everyone. On behalf of DAM Capital, we welcome you all to Q4 FY 2023 conference call of C.E. Info Systems, better known as MapmyIndia. We have with us Mr. Rakesh Verma, Co-Founder and CMD of the company, Mr. Rohan Verma, CEO and Executive Director, Mr. Anuj Jain, CFO of the company, and Mr. Saurabh Somani, Company Secretary and Compliance Officer. I'll now hand over the call to Mr. Verma for his opening remarks. Thank you, and over to you, sir. Thanks, Anmol, on behalf of MapmyIndia, I would like to welcome all the participants in this earnings call. We have already submitted the, our investor presentation to the stock exchange, which I hope many of you might have gotten a chance to look at. I would like to start saying that one, we are privileged to have you all as investors or analysts or fund managers who are participating in our journey. I'll start saying that I'm very happy to report to all the shareholders that MapmyIndia had a very good year, 2023, a stellar year I can say without hesitation, where revenue went up 41% to INR 282 crores. The PAT went up 24% to INR 108 crores year-over-year. EBITDA margin we maintained at 42%. With these three you can see that the revenue which was, which had grown 31% year before has gone up to 41% growth and the PAT EBITDA margin also at 42%. Few of the items I would like to bring, highlight for your information that during this year, the year we are talking about, MapmyIndia is making quite a big investment, an organic investment in the IoT business. While we are doing that, and I'll let you know few of the things that have happened. While the 42% margin is well-maintained, the Map-led business which is the core business had a healthy EBITDA margin of almost 52%. IoT business we are looking at in a very positive and in a very positive way because while there are almost 280 million-300 million vehicles on the road, we believe that the total addressable market when it is so large, we need to address that market and become the leader in this space also. Map and IoT together is what our business has become today and will continue to be our business in the coming times. Just to give you one small statistics that in the nine months of last fiscal year, while our EBITDA margin from the IoT-led business was 1%, it grew to 4% in the Q4 of FY 2023, and this has been possible because the SaaS revenue or the SaaS income has started kicking in. The exciting aspect of the IoT-led business is that while we sold INR 1.9 lakh IoT devices in fiscal year 2023, more than 3x that of fiscal year 2022, there is a potential addressable market of INR 20 crore vehicles or 200 million vehicles or 300 million vehicles in that range that can be tapped in future. Showing the large headroom there is for MapmyIndia's IoT-led hardware and SaaS business. This I wanted to say it very clearly that we are on the right track on in the area which is hardware-led. Still we have made it profitable in its first year of operations itself. With that, I would like to hand over the mic to Rohan. Let him explain how the business is going to shape up in the times to come. Sure. Thanks a lot, Mr. Verma. It's a pleasure to be on this call with all of you. Like Mr. Verma said, we had a stellar year, 41% growth, INR 282 crores for FY 2022. It was broad-based, meaning Consumer Tech & Enterprise Digital Transformation was up 48% to INR 130 crores and A&M, automotive and mobility tech revenue was up 34% to INR 152 crores. Keep in mind that a few things that we have beat out the automotive industry growth itself, which was less than 20% while our own automotive business has grown more than 40%. On the IoT side also, as Mr. Verma said, 140% year-over-year growth. On all counts, A&M has done quite well. Quarterly, the dynamics were that, if you, if you look at quarter year-on-year, which we never suggest, our business is an annual business, but even in case somebody wants to look at it, then when you see Q4 of this year versus previous year Q4, you see a 2% growth. The reason is, if you go back to Q3 FY 2022, there was a semiconductor shortage, and that pushed up artificially Q4 of FY 2022. In any case, Q4 is a seasonally weak quarter. FY 2023. Of FY 2023. In any case, I hope that helps people understand the A&M dynamics at play. The C&E of course continues to grow quite strong. It's grown at 48%. 1.9+ million vehicles went built in with MapmyIndia Mappls up from 1.3 million. A lot of upselling is happening. We were also successful in gaining a lot more orders on the automotive front, even the mobility front. I'll talk about it. So that brings me to the open order book. Open order book has grown spectacularly to INR 918 crores, 31% up from INR 699 crores at the beginning of the year. This was based on annual new order bookings of INR 512 crores. Plus, we added 250 + customers, B2B and B2B2C customers. Not all of our customers' acquisition reflects in our open order book because a lot of it is subscription-based or transaction-based, where since we don't have the contractual volume from the customer, but we will get paid based on the consumption or as their usage increases. That doesn't reflect in our open order book. Actually getting these 250 + customers, going up from 600 + to 850 +, and doing the INR 512 crores new order booking shows that, you know, the business development in the year is going to set a stage for the future. Also just finally on the... I wanted to share that look. In this coming year, there are few things also that we will be incubating some potentially large yet unlocked opportunities for our company. One is in the space of the consumer app and gadgets. With Mappls app and Mappls Gadgets getting rave reviews from consumers, I think anybody using Mappls app will say it is much better than Google Maps. Only thing was Google Maps went preloaded, but now the Competition Commission has also ruled against them. That regulatory change is going to happen. Plus, by creating more brand and visibility for us, it will have a positive knock-on effect on our business. We have some good plans for consumer space in the time to come, and gadgets itself as part of IoT. As Mr. Verma said, the SaaS revenue kicking in leads to that. Additionally, the drone space also we will incubate and explore. It's a fast-growing market. We have now built up the capability of full stack, providing drone hardware, but also drone services and also drone-based data analytics and solutions. We are doing this both organically and through our inorganic investment. We are already winning lot of drone business, that's something that will grow in the time to come. Of course, we'll continue to invest in the products and platforms. I mean, if you look at the financial year EBITDA margin, PAT margin, I think the numbers are there. I want to call out that our ex- cash ROCE, return on capital employed, is 122%. Just also to give a sense to people, over the course of the history of the company, we have raised just INR 124 crores in the company. If you just look at cash also, that has grown from INR 381 crores-INR 485 crores. Anybody can see that we are highly capital efficient. The reason is 28 years of building digital products and platforms, being deep tech from the top management downwards, has helped us create competitive products, which are not easy to replicate. I think if you look at the Map-led and IoT-led business, we've already talked about how that's growing fast. Map-led business is majority of our open order, about INR 700 crores out of the INR 900 crores. You can see that the Map-led business was also set to grow fast, in the time to come. Lot of customer wins across automotive and mobility tech, I'll leave it for Q&A. Similar for consumers and consumer tech and enterprise. Lot of customer wins, as I said, BFSI, NBFC, FinTech, social commerce, D2C, and of course, key strategic government wins. I think with that probably. Last point on the customer. Now 54 customers form 80% of our revenue. Earlier it was 35, and the year before it was 25. You can start seeing that customer diversification is also there, and retention stays high at 91% and 250 +, as I said, we added customers. We've given our employee breakup, et cetera. To give you a sense, we are now 1,170 employees, mostly technical, 900+ technical. Somebody was commenting that in less than 1,000 technical people you have generated INR 100+ crore of profit. This is a rarity, is a rarity, and we are an outlier in that. Our attrition is 16.9%. I think it's well in control. With that, we'll open up to questions, I think. Yeah. Thank you very much. We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touch-tone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. The first question is from the line of Anmol Garg from DAM Capital. Please go ahead. Hi. Thanks for the opportunity. I had a couple of questions. Firstly, wanted to understand the growth dynamics in the auto segment, ex of the IoT hardware business. Ex of the IoT hardware, the growth in the auto segment looks a bit muted of around 13%-14%, versus strong volume sales that we have done of around 46% growth from the N-CASe solutions. I'm talking about FY 2023. Just wanted to understand that has there been any change in the realization in the auto business? Yeah, that will be my first question. Anmol, no, that's not right information. IoT is not all A&M. IoT is partial in A&M and partial in C&E. Our auto business is quite strong. It's growing quite fast. It's definitely much more there. We don't break it out specifically as an end customer type, but it's grown, I mean, at least, 30%. Volume definitely has grown 46%, you're right. Industry volume is anyways less than 20%, so you see our attach rate going up. Yeah, there are two-wheelers also which are going live with our solutions. More and more two-wheeler customers are also there. At the same time, the four-wheeler customers have also increased, and we are doing a bunch of upselling. Like I said, our open order book on the Map-led part is about INR 700 crores. Bunch of new EV platforms of big four-wheeler companies, you know, have started the work which will go live next year. You know, we are upselling ADAS, connected services. I mean, we are quite bullish on the automotive part of our business. Thanks, Rohan, for the clarity. Just secondly, wanted to have more of a outlook-based question on both auto IoT and the consumer business for next year. Any particular guidance that you are giving from the growth perspective for the next year? See, you know what Mr. Verma said in the beginning that, look, you saw a couple of years ago what our growth was in revenue, you also started to see our order book go up. Previous year you saw 31% revenue growth. You saw what the open order book growth was. This year you can see the open order book growth plus the new set of customers, we had 40% revenue growth. For sure we are looking at, you know, at least doing that. The growth will be across each of the segments. We see pretty strong sustainable growth potential in each of our segments, be it automotive, corporate, government, retail, if I say from a customer type point of view or A&M and C&E from a market point of view. Where we stand today, given our position of our products, our differentiation, our existing customer base and customer acceptance, we think that we'll have, you know, we'll be able to do much better growth in the future and sustainably so. Sure. Thanks, Rohan. Just one last thing from my end, and then I'll join back in the queue. Just wanted to understand the normalized long-term margins that can be there in the IoT business. Right now you said that it has already increased to 4- odd percent right now. Maybe in a time period of two to three years, if you can highlight that, what can be the margins into this business? Also, part to that would be that now we have been highlighting that we are, we want to go more towards the hardware business. In that case, will our long-term margins be impacted because of that? I don't think we said that we are going towards hardware business. What we have said is IoT is a business where it is a hardware leg. What that means is the moment you give... It's like an investment today and the return is tomorrow. It's a, it's a customer acquisition. If I give the hardware today, the cost comes today, definitely, but the SaaS kicks in maybe six months later, a year later, and then for the years to come, you have done two good things. One, you acquired a customer, whether the customer is a B2B or a customer is a consumer, and then you keep earning, reaping in the SaaS revenue from him for a long time to come. It's a very interesting business. It is with great effort that a year back we decided that the best way for us is to treat it as an organic business only because it also has a very good impact on the Map-led business. Overall, what I would like to say, you're trying to understand what would be the normalized margin. The way we look at it is what would be our normalized profit ultimately, and the profit comes definitely not from margin as a percentage, but the profit also comes on what volume we create in terms of revenue. Ultimately, what matters for the company, like last year, if we added INR 100 crore cash into the company through a profit of INR 108 crores, imagine that's the kind of power we are looking at. That's the way we are trying to run our business. I, once you start appreciating this, it's a very new way, another way of doing business. Sure, sir. Sure. Thanks for the clarification, sir. I'll join back in the queue. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Nitin Sharma from Moneycontrol Pro Research. Please go ahead. Yeah. Thanks a lot for taking my question. Two questions. First of all, since you plan to focus on the consumer apps and gadgets side, is it fair to assume that your marketing budget is going to go up next year? If yes, some guidance would be helpful. See, like we've said about marketing before, we definitely calibrate our marketing spend in line with whatever financial goals that we set for ourselves. Yes, we will invest more in marketing, but it'll be aligned with the growth in any case that we are seeing of our overall business. If we have given you a sense of where revenue will go in the next year, and, where margins, anyways we look at these margins at 40% above level, then you can imagine that how much of already headroom we have for marketing because other costs don't go up that high in line with that. Definitely we will increase our budgets on marketing. Again, as we do everything, we will be quite capital efficient and different, in building a strong, you know, consumer franchise, you know, app-led and gadgets-led, which will also have, like I said, a knock-on effect or positive effect on the B2B business too. Okay. Okay. And your CapEx seems to have gone up. Can you please help to understand what is in there? How do you see it going ahead? Then I have a very small bookkeeping question. I didn't understand what you said. CapEx? Your CapEx, excluding acquisition, seems to have gone up. Help to understand what is in there and how do you see it going ahead? The CapEx might have gone up a very little bit. It might be primarily for the computers and and those kinds of things. Are you talking about the fixed asset? No, sir. Your purchase of, property plant investments have gone from INR 4 crore- INR 15 crore, I think, in FY 2023. It is the rental. Everything rental. Everything rental, right. Oh. Yeah. When we sell these devices, we also provide them on a OpEx model to customers where we rent out these devices, and we collect a larger fee per month for a longer time. It's actually more lucrative for us than just selling the device upfront sometimes. There's a mix of selling and renting out. When we rent out, then that goes as a fixed asset in our books. Understood. Understood. Lastly, just bookkeeping. Some color on what are these 250 customer additions, which are the segments, some breakup would be helpful. Large majority are corporates. Of course, in automotive, each customers can be big depending on how sizable that OEM is. We've definitely added automotive OEMs as well. Government, you know, we pick and choose which customers we want to work with. We've picked some strategic government organizations at center, state, and local level. Large majority are corporates, which is great because that's where, you know, we can upsell our whole range, and there's a lot more such businesses, and that's what we do. We look at which customers in which industry segments for which use cases we've already sold, and then we upsell or cross-sell, do lookalike selling, and that kind of creates that flywheel. More customers, more use cases, we can sell that back to existing ones, et cetera. Mostly corporate. Okay. Thank you. I'll get back to you. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Vimal Gohil from Alchemy Capital Management Private Limited. Please go ahead. Yeah, thanks. My first question is on your explanation around your IoT business and the SaaS revenue that follows the hardware that you sell. You said that there is a lag of about six months to one year until the SaaS revenue actually kicks in. My understanding was that once the IoT device is actually installed in the vehicle, the SaaS revenue should be kicking in immediately. If you could just help us correct that understanding if it's... No, your understanding is right. The way it is happening is we are giving the devices in two ways, as Rohan just said, on a rental basis or as a sale of the hardware. On a rental basis, if I'm giving, yes, the SaaS revenue starts kicking in right away. If I'm selling the hardware, we might be selling it with some understanding with the customers that we'll charge you SaaS a year later. No, no. Either we bundle the SaaS with the hardware for a year or- Right. We may be bundling it with the SaaS saying that for one year the subscription is free, and after that you may be paying. I think that's the reality. All right. All right. Basically, the understanding is that now that's a change in my understanding. Basically for one year, the SaaS revenues are typically free for... This would be for, typically for B2B customers. No, no. That's not right. I mean, that's not right. I mean, we charge for hardware and SaaS separately. Like a consumer, if you're as a consumer, you're gonna buy it with a one-year plan or a three-year plan. Hence the SaaS revenue from that will kick in later. If you're an enterprise, we'll charge you for the hardware and the SaaS separately. From day one. That will start kicking in from day one. One. If you look at the SaaS revenue this year of IoT, INR 17 crore has been SaaS revenue, INR 42 crore is hardware. You start getting a sense of how the SaaS revenue will add, and then that hardware base will generate more SaaS in the years to come. I hope that helps. Yeah. Understood, sir. On your margins, basically, if your SaaS is going to take some time to sort of kick in, and plus you also are going to invest in, as you said, in your consumer business, in drones, et cetera, would it be fair to say that, you know, the exit rate of FY 2023 will be a fair number to sort of look at at least for the next couple of years? Like Mr. Amar said, we are looking to build a pretty large company, okay? Like, I don't think we are optimizing for quarterly EBITDA. I think we are already one of the highest in the, in the peer set of technology or otherwise also. 40+ EBITDA margin, I'm not sure how many technology companies at least in the peer set. We want to build a very large revenue-based company. On that, the absolute EBITDA growth, absolute PAT growth is what will determine, in our opinion, the success of the company, like generating cash every year. Those are the things we are looking at. The margin, we are looking at 40+, okay? That has been the track record. On the EBITDA side, we would like to have the ability to go after larger and larger opportunities. I think it's in the interest of the company, while doing it responsibly, to go after the large TAMs that are out there. Understood, sir. Thank you so much, and all the very best. Thank you. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Sameer Pardikar from ICICI Direct. Please go ahead. Am I- Sir, we have a disturbance on your line. Yeah. Hello, Mr. Pardikar? Am I audible now? Yes. This is much better, sir. Go ahead. Yeah. Sir, couple of bookkeeping questions. The dip in the new order book, because we have grown our new order book very strongly for last three years. Now there is some dip, but albeit it's very small, 2%-3%. What I've seen is a dip in the new order book for this year, sir? Yeah. I, the open order book is what determines the future kind of revenue. That has grown up to INR 918 crores from INR 699 crores. That's grown 31%. The annual new order bookings you have to look at in conjunction with the number of new customer acquisition also we have done. Lot of the new customer acquisition we do, for example, in IoT, when somebody buys the device or a customer comes on board, unless they are contractually obligated or they have given us a PO, we don't... For the SaaS, we don't book that. As every month that they use, they will pay us. Obviously, if they have paid upfront for our hardwares, they will continue to pay for the subscription very, I mean... When APIs happen, the, based on the consumption of the user, as like you ask Alexa that, you know, "How far is the airport from you?" You know, "Where is the hospital nearby?" She'll answer, "According to MapmyIndia, it is this." Like that, every call we'll get paid. It's sometimes it's hard to predict, and definitely we don't, in some cases, don't get that contract, contractual obligation. As they consume, we get paid. When you look at 250+ customers, a lot of that potential revenue is not showing up in the, neither in the annual new order booking and nor in the open order book. Overall, when you look at the business potential or outcome, you should look at both in conjunction for this year. Do we see a recovery in this number from the current work we have reported in FY 2023, or it will be more of a constant number for next two years? No, no. We had aspiration obviously. We don't cap our aspiration on order booking. Whatever best we can do, we do. The number turns out whatever it has to turn out. Our aspiration obviously every year is higher and higher. We are sharing with you what we achieved in the past year. Of course, our aspirations on order booking are much higher. Sure. Second thing, I think if, last year we, out of INR 200 crore, we said that probably INR 80 crore has come from open order book, if I remember correctly. What is the follow-on number for FY 2023, similar number for FY 2023? You mean out of INR 280, how much is from the open order and how much is from the? Yeah, we did disclose this number last year. out of INR 200 crore. Out of INR 200, INR 80 was from... What were you saying? Open order. This was some number, if I remember correctly. What is the corresponding number for FY 2023? I think it's roughly half and half. It was roughly half and half. We don't call it out in the investor deck. Maybe we answered it in the presentation or in the Q&A. So I don't have the exact number, but it's roughly half and half. Our open order book, you know, the execution is between three to five, four to five, that type of execution. Sure. Sure. Sure. Thank you, sir. That's it from my side. Thank you. We have the next question from the line of Sameer Dosani from ICICI Prudential AMC. Please go ahead. Hey, thanks for the opportunity. Just want to understand IoT business more. What do you think would be the churn rate? Because we are running this business for last one year now. What would be the ideal churn rate in this business now? We've been running it actually as MapmyIndia for last many years, you know, actually almost I would say seven, eight years, 10 years. in the last one year, what we did by acquiring, it was kind of an actually hire. We paid INR 13 crores and got a solid team, about 125 odd people, who as a company had generated INR 8 crores in that year. We used that opportunity to strengthen our management bandwidth to scale that business, because now there was a full team and our own team. If you look at now, IoT-led business has about 350 or 380 people, I think we put it in the presentation. We had our sales revenue of about whatever, INR 25 odd crores in that year. Our, you know, the objective is always to have nil churn, but of course you will have some churn. If you look at the SaaS revenue growing, you'll get a good sense of kind of that, you know, things are progressing well. Now with scale we will see what is happening to churn. I think we'll be better positioned to answer this in the next year or so. Now since we have done that, you know, running it for seven years, what should we understand of that churn rate? 15%, 20%, what should be the churn rate? What's your estimate? I mean, you can just use that as a thumb rule for now. Again, I don't want to give you a specific number because it's not something that. Like I said, you know, we look at this and share with you probably in the time to come, but I don't want to comment on it. No, no problem. Also now at, you know, this IoT business is now at 4% EBIT, EBITDA margins at the exit rate, Q4 exit rate. You know, what is the number of devices that, you know, that would make you comfortable to reach at a company level margin in this business? Because Because right now it's a subscale business. What is the kind of plan that you would have, you know, how many years would it take us to reach there at a company level margin in this business? Actually, since this business is much more profitable because of the SaaS offering, what should be the margin levels of this business once it's scaled to a level that we would want to? I mean, the Map-led is also pretty profitable. I don't know, if we may miss that, this is. I mean, the Map-led itself is also quite strong as a business. Correct. Correct. IoT, in IoT, you see the headroom for growth is quite high. We are looking at what the absolute value of profits, EBITDA, et cetera, we can generate. You know, because the yearly margin is a bit of a function of how many new devices you put and what the past SaaS revenue number becomes for that year. Correct. It's, you know, it'll be our growth aspiration for the IoT business each year will determine what that margin for that year is, and this can be true even in future. But what will happen is, as you said, as the scale increases, the absolute contribution will continue to increase. Like this year, as we said, this last quarter itself and this year as we had predicted, that we have said absolute contribution will be there of this business at EBITDA level, which is true. It will only grow. Okay. Okay. That's true. next question is now, is on the order book. If you look at order book, it has been for last three years has been consistently expanding the open order order book number. Is the average duration in some way changing, like, was it three years in 2021, and 2023 it's four and a half years or five years? Is that. If you can comment on the average years or the, you know, number of years this order book represents over the last three years will be helpful. Yeah. It's always a function of what type of orders, you know, and what contribution they have to the overall size and the aging, et cetera. It's in that order, like, it's in that order of four or four plus, you know, years if you want to take it like that. And because- See, the issue that comes up here is, we are saying that three to five years as kind of on an average or somehow we are just trying to give you a perspective. I mean, some orders could be just which may get consumed in one year, some might get consumed in two years, some might get consumed in three years, some might get consumed in four years or five years. Now, every year when we look at internally, we say that here is a INR 900+ crore of orders that is available for us to consume. What will get consumed in fiscal year 2024? Internally, we have worked out that number, and then we try to make sure that that number is achieved during FY 2024. Correct. New orders. The new orders that will keep coming during the year. Correct. Correct. No, I'm asking, on an average level, like INR 920 crore is, you know, maybe four and a half years. FY 2022 open order book represents four years. I'm just trying to understand that. I know. If I try to generalize it's very easy for me that I'll divide it by some number and say four years, three years, five years. Every year the same... If I take that INR 900, what is the impact? Forget about anything new. That INR 900, what is this contribution going to be in FY year one and what will be it in year two and year three may vary. That is the challenge. Sure. Overall, what you have seen, that we have grown as a revenue from INR 200 crore, INR 150 crore - INR 200 crore -INR 280 crore, and we are pretty bullish that there's no reason why the revenue growth will not happen, will not be better than FY 2023. Correct. Correct. Correct. A lot of that is based on the confidence of the open order that we already have. Okay. Okay. Okay. Understood. Understood. This converts into a 40% growth guidance that we have been speaking about, right? That's the overall color in... Yeah, at least. Yeah, at least we are saying same. Okay. All right. All right. Thanks. Thanks for that. Thank you. Again, look at us, year to date and on an annual basis. Don't extrapolate for every quarter. I'm just using this opportunity to reiterate. Rohan, so just a small follow-up on this, because, you know, if you look at number of devices in A&M auto side, right? I think last year was a very good year for auto, and we already are at 1.9 million vehicles, right? I'm not sure, I mean, at the auto level, the growth would be lower next year, right? The auto industry would be growing lower in FY 2024. How should we understand now, can we continue to grow at 40%? And where does our confidence come from in auto at least? Thanks. Yeah. See, it'll be a function of few things. Auto, when we say auto, we mean new vehicles which are rolling out of the factory. Correct. Right? Correct. Four-wheeler, two-wheeler commercial vehicle, IC or EV, and we can also sell Map-led or IoT-led. You know, we have an N-CASe solution which we save for suite of solutions for OEMs. There's a lot of upselling that we can do into new vehicles as well. There is potentially a lot of upside. One is to, you know, the steady-state attach rates in the developed markets is like 50%, 60% take rate on the whole industry. We are just touching like 9.5%, 10%, and we are the majority of this market ourselves. There's a lot of upselling that can happen from our side, which we will attempt to do, both Map-led and IoT-led. I think there's a lot of growth still remaining in the automotive market. That's what's exciting to us. Understood. Overall, total vehicles sold, 50%, 60% have maps, and we are at 9% - 10% of that. Understood. That's. No, no. I'm saying in developed markets. Okay. The attach rate, if you go, like in developed markets, not India. Right. Sorry, international markets like Korea or U.S. or wherever, the attach rate of this category of stuff is like 50%-60%. In India, we ourselves are at 9%, so you can see and we are the majority of the market. You can see what our upside can be. I hope that's clearer. Understood. Understood. Industry level, this 9%, 10% would be how much? To get an idea. Again, internationally it's 50%, 60%. In India- Okay. I mean, we are the market now in India. I mean, the automotive N-CASe's, who else is there? Correct. Okay. Got your point. All right. Thanks. Thanks for that clarification. Thank you, Rohan. Thanks. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Amar Mourya from AlfAccurate Advisors. Please go ahead. Yeah. Thanks a lot for the opportunity. First thing, sir, in new order book, what would be the breakup between the auto and Consumer Tech? Mm. The growth. It's about 60% A&M and 40% C&E. Yeah, 60, 65%. Yeah. 60% would be auto, right? Automotive and mobility, yeah. 60, 65 and 30, 35 types. Yeah. Okay. When you say mobility, so basically we are clubbing in this, the, basically the IoT part also? Some of the IoT is in mobility A&M, some of it is in C&E. It's not one-to-one correlated. Okay. Okay. is it possible- A&M is like market and C&E is... I got that. Sir, is it possible, like, in this new order, what would be, let's say IoT component? Is it easy to break up for you? Yeah. Like I said, out of the 918, about 700 odd is Map-led and about, you know, whatever, 20% odd, 18% or something, 15%-20% is IoT-led. That this number would be kind of similar for the new order book also. 18%-20% of the overall order book would be the IoT-led? I mean, 20% of maybe, we haven't broken it up like that, A&M, C&E. I got it. I got it. but yeah. Correct. Correct. Sir, basically if I see the C&E order book growth, I mean, it has basically seen some degrowth on a year-over-year basis. Any specific reason this year for this number to decline? I don't know. See, I don't know whether that's true or not. How did you calculate for the degrowth? Basically, sir, last year if I see 2022, the C&E number was INR 279 crore. Auto new order book was INR 245 crore. Total new order book last year was around, INR 524 crore, right? Yeah, we haven't broken up A&M, C&E order books. sir, I think Looking at fixed and volume or what? What is it? No, no, no. I'm talking about the absolute. See, the last year total new order book was around INR 524 crore. Correct, sir? That's right. In that INR 524 crore order book, INR 245 crore come from auto and INR 279 crore was from the C&E. I don't know how that... Did we publish that? sir, I think it was given. I don't know whether it was given in the publication or it probably during the meeting or something like that. Maybe we can pick it up some other time. Okay. We'll look up. We can always get back on this. My point is that, you know, again, I'll reiterate, our C&E business is also growing quite fast. 250+ customers added, not everything reflected in the new order book, open order book. You know, I think we are fairly happy. Of course, with new orders, you know, you can always be happier if you do better. In general, I think it's been a good year. Got that. Got that. Sir, how do you see basically, I mean, because as you said that, you know, the growth is partial from new order book as well as from the existing order book, so it is primarily divided 50/50 kind of. Basically, going into the next year, as you had added 250 kind of a customer in C&E, should we see that accelerated new order book growth in 2024? It will be more than. Yeah, I mean, 250 customers are not just in C&E, it's across both. Yeah, a lot of them are corporate. This definitely we are gunning for faster revenue growth next year than what it was this year. Okay. So I'm just trying to understand, should we like assume. Because, sir, your new order book, if I see from 2022 to 2023, had largely remained flat. If I see 2020 to 2021, there was like 50% kind of a growth or probably more than 50% kind of a growth. Going into 2024, do you see an extraordinary order book growth, new order book growth, you know, because of what all accumulation we did in 2023? Order book growth. Okay. Let me help you a bit. There's nothing that says that there cannot be a growth during 2024 more than 2023. There's nothing that says it won't. The second part also please understand that the adding more customers, like 250 more customers in the overall, which doesn't result into the. I mean, that also is a sign that the order growth can happen. Yeah. Not just by order booking, open order, but also the orders that happens during the year and gets consumed because of the nature of the business of APIs or devices like that. Yeah. Got it. Also just to clarify, that 245 number you're saying is for fixed pricing in FY 2022. It's not for automotive. Fixed pricing means we have these fixed. We are assured that value no matter what, just by the flex of time. Volume means based on volume, meaning that we are projected or contracted to achieve a certain volume, I mean, by the customer, for which we will get paid as that volume happens. It's just if you want to read that and understand that later. Okay. Okay. Okay. Fine, sir, fine. Sir, like in terms of the, as you indicated that, you know, the next year growth would be something around 40%. In this 40%, if you can break it up, like how much would be from the auto and how much it would be from the Consumer Tech, Enterprise business? I think we'll let that happen. Something we'll let it unfold. I mean, see, you have a track record, not that it's a secret or anything. The point is, you know, how things shape up in the years, you know, what we do with IoT-led business, you know, it's not necessarily that we can predict everything. We have a sense based on our open order book where the A&M and C&E will go. Also there's new order bookings and new sales to be done, right? Can't exactly tell you a number, but you have a track record to reflect on. Okay. Okay. basically, what was trying to understand, like this 40% growth confidence, I mean, is it coming from the existing kind of order book or is it also built with the new booking which you are expecting to come, let's say? Part of it is coming from the open order book to be honest. I mean, but, I mean. Hello? Yeah, a lot of the confidence is coming from the open order book. Okay. We believe that we'll do new order booking. Okay. Okay. basically, sir, you would be like internally you would be clear, right, from where the growth is largely going to be driven? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, like any company, we also make a plan and work out with a very fine detail so that the team starts working on that. Based on all that, the confidence has come that, yes, there's no reason why we'll not have a revenue growth of at least 40%. I got it. I got it. Sir, one last number, if it is possible to you. What would be, let's say, the full year auto and Consumer Tech revenue, full year basis, FY 2023, full year? Sorry, your question was last year, what was the C&E revenue? Yeah. I'm saying, FY 2023 full year basis, what would be the auto and what would be the consumer tech revenue? Those numbers are there, INR 130 of C&E and INR 150 for A&M. INR 150 for A&M and INR 130 for C&E. Thank you, sir. I think there are multiple people waiting in line. Thank you, sir. Yeah, I'll come back in queue, sir. Thank you, sir. Thanks a lot. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Moez Chandani from Centrum Broking. Please go ahead. Yeah. Good evening. Thank you for taking my question. My first question was on the A&M business. We've been at the INR 40 crore sort of a revenue mark for the past three quarters, right? This is assuming that the Gtropy contribution, whatever is coming in A&M, would have been increasing. Is it fair to say that X of Gtropy, the A&M revenues would be declining for the past few quarters? Any color that you could add to that? You know, we have disclosed how much is the IoT-led business. Right. Thanks for that. In the presentation it says very clearly the IoT-led business is how much? Is 60 for the year. 60. 220 is 222 or something for the Map-led business. It's not Gtropy. Right. Sure. Sure. You can say IoT-led. Now, IoT-led doesn't mean... Out of that, we have also disclosed how much was devices and how much was SaaS. Right. The nothing has gone down. Yeah. See, Q4 is a seasonally weak, quarter for automotive, I don't think look at the trend on a sequential quarter basis. you know, look at the years. That's my- I mean, I'll add a little bit more. Unfortunately, the more we try to look at sequentially or quarter by quarter, we are also unable to analyze that way. Somehow our focus is very clear for the year to achieve. We had set a goal for ourselves last year in the beginning of the year, that we must attain 40% of revenue growth. We must attain. Actually it was like this, that we must cross this three digit or INR 100 crore milestone for the profit PAT. Like that we set up. This quarter by quarter is something which we have to keep working every day, I know. We add up the quarter, it becomes the year, that's known. We don't mess up too much that shifting from this quarter to that quarter. Sure. Okay. Thank you for that. My next question was on the consumer business. You did launch your Mappls Gadgets sometime in February. Any, has there been any revenue contribution from that and are you expecting any significant revenue contribution from that segment in FY 2024? Yeah. See, Mappls Gadgets, we've publicly launched it, but we've been selling it through the distribution network, through the retail outlets, car showrooms, car accessory shops, or the automotive genuine accessory route for a while now. With Mappls Gadgets now the brand and promotion and marketing and then the online stuff will also start kicking in. And of course we will expand distribution. I mean, A, it's already doing well, but B, yes, in this year we will look to expand the visibility, reach and sales of Mappls Gadgets in a big way. That's what is one of the aspects of kind of what growth we are seeing. Okay, great. Thank you. Thank you for your time. Thanks. We move to the next. Hi, Anmol. Are we connected? I think we can't hear anybody on the other side. We are connected, but I don't know. Anmol, are you there or the moderators? We can't hear anybody. No. This is the operator. Yeah, now we can hear you. Yes. We'll take the next question from the line of Pooja Ahuja from Monarch Networth Capital. Please go ahead. Yeah. Hi. Thanks for the opportunity. Firstly, wanted to understand earlier in your interview today, you mentioned that, you know, INR 60 crore, is the revenue from Gtropy. When I look at your presentation, it's the entire IoT business revenue. Just wanted to understand what's the share of Gtropy here. No, no, I didn't say at all INR 60 crores was Gtropy. I said IoT-led. Okay? some of that might have come from I mean, a large part would have come from Gtropy, but some would have come from MapmyIndia also. just for clarity sake, IoT-led is INR 60 crores. Right. Right. Sure. Since the INR 60 crore is almost like 20% of your revenue for the full year, wanted to understand where do you see this share going in the next couple of years? In that case, what could be the impact? If this share is increasing in maybe the next couple of years, we could see margin compressing, then probably we could see as SaaS revenue picks up the impact coming on the positive impact sort of coming on the margin. Maybe the next couple of years you could see margin decline. See, you know, there's scale, there's operating leverage in each of our businesses, even in the Map-led business, right? As the Map-led business grows, that will also contribute to margins, and that has its own strong outlook, which is that you're seeing that in the INR 700 crore open order book for Map-led. IoT, I mean, we see a large headroom for growth, so we will go after, but we'll keep in mind what margins we want to have. Again, you know, IoT might grow faster or might grow in line with the company. I don't want to predict where the, you know, exact share will be. Overall, you know, at least for the upcoming years, you know, we can give a sense. Okay. Okay. That's it from my end. My other questions I will ask them. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Anirudh Agarwal from ValueQuest Investment Advisors. Please go ahead. Yeah, hi. Thanks. On the auto segment, I'm sorry to keep harping on this, but I'll just ask it straight. Has there been any pricing pressure that you're seeing in any of the automotive and mobility revenue, right? Because in a quarter where overall industry volumes seem to have grown, we have de-grown auto revenue ex of IoT. That was kind of hard to understand. Is there any pricing pressure that you're seeing in this? I think I explained. I don't know why this question is coming, that auto de-grown ex IoT. All IoT does not fall in A&M. Okay? It's partial in A&M, partial C&E. The second thing is quarter and quarter is not the right way to look on MapmyIndia's business, especially auto. I mean, not just auto, in general. If you look at it, yes, volume growth has been from INR 1.3 million-INR 1.9 million. Even two-wheelers are going, are growing as a contribution of our this thing, but doesn't mean four-wheelers not. I mean, I would like to dispel that notion that auto revenue is- No, if you really look at it on a year-on-year basis, the overall A&M revenue growth is at 2%, right? obviously the IoT revenue growth. That's what I explained already. If you are talking about Q4 year-on-year, I explained that whole semiconductor shortage, Q3 of FY 2022 causing Q4 of FY 2022 to be higher on a, you know, artificially. Year-on-year is 34%, which has grown. Where's the question of degrowth? Okay, I'll take it offline. Overall industry volumes Q4 to Q4 have grown, right? That's where the question was largely coming from. Ideally, the attach rate should only have increased versus the last year given what's happening on SUVs and E2 wheelers. We can Can I request you also to please whatever you want to ask. There is no problem. We are there to answer. Do the annual analysis rather than this quarter-by-quarter analysis. Mm-hmm. Honestly, we also try to avoid it because it's not the way we are running the business. We are running the business to ensure that on an annual basis, what we've set ourselves for, the goals, we try to achieve that. We do not set our goals for quarters. No, right. absolutely understand that. but that's okay. my next question was on the IoT bit. If my understanding is correct, I mean, largely the IoT revenues will be coming from the B2B segment currently, right? Some of it comes from B2C also. Mm-hmm. The Mappls Gadgets. Mappls Gadgets. Okay, understood. The question largely coming from the fact that obviously given that B2B one year SaaS is free, the margin will optically look lower right now if a larger share of revenue is from B2B. If I remember from the last discussion, we were saying that SaaS revenue is 30%-35% of the hardware revenue, if I remember right. Ideally, the objective would be that as B2B hardware keeps growing, SaaS keeps kicking in, and then the margins see a J-curve kind of increase, right? Yeah. you said IoT growth will also not be significantly higher versus company growth, going ahead. I. You're right about the first part. The second part, I said that, you know, it's what the IoT-led growth will be, our IoT-led business will decide, and we'll do that in the overall structure of how much growth we want to have. The headroom is quite high. We can go after even larger growth, you know. We could have even gone after larger growth in this last years of the IoT, but we consciously want to also keep some fiscal guardrails. Mm-hmm. It will be a question of how much we calibrate, how much growth we want to go after for IoT. If we feel that we can do that in a way, which we do, we are quite bullish on this, we will continue to invest behind the growth of that business. It is already reaping good results. Got it. final question on the order inflows during this year, and the new customers acquisition that we're talking about. Is the mix of new customers that you're acquiring now materially different versus what you were doing earlier, and hence those numbers are not reflecting in the contractual order inflows? No. I mean, of course, the mix of the business will change when IoT is becoming a larger part. You know, when you, when you lock in a customer for a particular contract for longer term, they can also ask for the, for some more discount, right? Whereas if you allow the customer to have the flexibility, you know, then they'll give you a higher rate. When we know that their usage is only going to grow. I mean, it's a little bit, you know, how we mutually agree with the customers. For us, we want to get the customers where we can not just sell the service that we have contracted to sell them, but upsell them also. That's why I said look at it holistically. Material change, we are adding on to our business. There's no material change per se. We are adding on a focus on IoT to our overall consolidated business. Understood. Fair enough. Thanks. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Pratyush Agarwal from White Oak. Please go ahead. Hello. Hi. I'm now audible? Yes, you are. Good evening, Rohan and Rakeshji. Just one clarification on the growth 40% number, right? This 40% number, I am assuming, from currently what we are seeing is the organic component. We're not building in any kind of inorganic element in this number, right? No. Sure. Also, sort of to better understand Gtropy, right? When we did the acquisition FY 2021 number, Gtropy was doing something like INR 8 crores a year, right? Right now the previous comment you sort of made that, IoT is roughly INR 60 crores. Gtropy would be a significant part of that. Let's say it's INR 30 crores. I mean, sort of I want to understand what has happened that we've been able to sort of almost 4x it, in a short period of time, if you could just. Yes. Yeah, correct. I mean, of course, we have moved a lot of our operations for IoT, all the device, et cetera, all the hardware stuff to the Gtropy as a company. Gtropy has its own customers which are independent of C.E. Info Systems. MapmyIndia is the parent company, which has its own customers independent of us. MapmyIndia has many customers still who we sell IoT to. When we get that order, we then subcontract it out to Gtropy. In the consolidated, obviously it doesn't matter, it gets net off. Hence that's why we are using this word IoT-led to give you a sense of kind of. So that's one. The second is really the, you know, this is why we wanted to. It's kind of an acqui-hire we did, you can think of. We paid INR 13 crores. This was a solid team which had a full organization, cross-functional, generating INR 8 crores. Obviously they didn't have cash, they didn't have that cash to, you know, either sustain or to grow. MapmyIndia has a pretty strong cash, you know, balance of INR 484 crores. We could, we could help them, you know, be a bit freer and go after the larger market. It also freed up some management bandwidth or bandwidth at our end within the core company where, you know, the operations was being taken care of by a focused team, you know, procurement, et cetera, all that hardware, cost engineering. Our team could be freer in terms of going and getting the business from our existing set of customers. I mean, it's been a very, you know, it's taken a... it's been a very thought-out, integration of Gtropy over the last, 15 months. I mean, Mr. Verma has taken a personal kind of, focus on enabling this, integration to go well. I mean, this is just generally the method that MapmyIndia as a company has followed for 28 years, being methodical, deliberate, et cetera, in trying to create a sustainable growing business. I mean, we're happy that within the first year itself we could turn it, in the way that we were thinking, and it's setting up a good platform for the time to come, and we're quite bullish on IoT and Gtropy. Mm-hmm. Sure. just sort of a follow-up, right? In the current structure, as it stands, the Gtropy part of, let's say, whatever, revenue that you are able to isolate would mostly be on the A&M part. Is that a fair understanding? No. It will be a mix of A&M and C&E. Okay. What would be the rough split, if you could help with that? I don't have it offhand. We can later let you know if you get in touch with us. Sure. Sure. No worries. Thank you. Thank you so much for taking the questions. The next question is from the line of Vidyadhar Ginde from Sohum Asset Managers. Please go ahead. Yeah. Thank you. My first question is, you have indicated in the last quarter in your interview to CNBC today also that you're guiding about 40% revenue growth over 40% margin. Would you be confident enough or willing to give at least soft guidance of a similar revenue growth and EBITDA margin for a two, three-year perspective? Would you rather wait for next year the order book to build up and give that kind of a guidance? I mean, we. I can share some other way, the same thing. We based on what the headroom is there for us, whether it's in the Map-led business or IoT business, and what the order booking that has already happened and the way we are operating, if somebody asks me a question, "Do you see the light at the end of the tunnel of reaching a INR 1,000 crore company?" I will say certainly yes. With a 40% growth or something like that, you can easily calculate how even at that level, how much, how long it will take. That's the better answer than what you are asking. Sure. Sure. I'll go to my next question, which I think, you have great revenue growth, excellent EBITDA margin, a great ROC, ROE. You have also generated excellent cash flow this year. I think, if at all anything is underwhelming, it appears to be the fact that while your revenue's up 40%, EBITDA is up 37%, your net profit is up just 23% and 24%, and that's mainly because your high margin business hasn't grown as strongly, has grown far less strongly than the overall revenue growth. What I really wanted to understand is when do you see that changing, whereby your profit growth is more in sync with... it's not at least 16 percentage points below your revenue growth. Either the map-led business, which is a high margin business, needs to grow more strongly than it is or the IoT business needs to, the margin needs to ramp up. No, no. When do you see this happening? Yeah. Both have their own independent paths, both are gunning for, you know, faster- Fair enough. When do you see this potential? I think if that happens, if let's say this time around your profit growth is 35%, I think we probably would not have a lot of the questions you had today. Everybody's asking it in different ways. I think their main problem is that your revenue EBITDA growth is 40%, 37%, but PAT has grown by just 24%. If that number is closer to your revenue growth, I think a lot of these questions will disappear in my view, and that's what I am trying to understand from you because you understand the company. Yeah. We'll take it as good input. No, no. Where I'm coming from is When do you see that happening that your profit growth is more in sync with your revenue growth? Okay. currently what are you seeing, the profit growth is 24%. Right? That's right. The revenue growth is 40%. You are saying that the profit growth should also be 40% like revenue growth, right? The delta is too big. I think that is where I think. That's what I'm saying. It's not 40, but something closer to that, maybe 35. Maybe like 30, 35. 30, 35. That's what I'm saying. Because, see, what's really happened is that Map-led business, if I look at standalone, revenue is up just 28%. You've got 40% because of the IoT, Gtropy and all, but that's hardly got any margin. Either that margin needs to ramp up quickly in a year or two or your Map-led business needs to grow stronger, whereby at least, you continue to grow at 40% revenue and profit growth is at least 30%-35%. I think that is what will make investors more happy. A lot of these questions which I think people are trying to. My belief is probably that is the root cause. That is why everybody's asking from different ways, trying to get to that answer. They want a stronger earnings growth. The business which is very profitable is, probably not able to follow. I mean, the points are great. I don't know whether we are optimizing on as investors. No, I know what you're saying. What you're doing is the best thing for the company because Maps bring you, as you add these businesses, their margins will grow, at some stage you'll get there. I'm only trying to understand when do you see that happening? Do you think it will take two, three years, five, six years where the revenue growth- Right. I mean, see, these are the independent, I mean, Map-led and IoT-led together we are very powerful. It's a very unique combination, and that's what makes us different. Map-led has its own trajectory. I mean, whether to automotive companies or mobility or consumer tech. No, I'm not going into those details like everybody else is. I'm a simpler question I'm trying to understand is that when do you see your revenue growth also 35%-40% less than what is fine. If your profit growth is gonna be 30%-35% and revenue is 35%, fine. That's what I'm trying to understand. When will your profit growth be, let's say at least 10 percentage points? Your point is well taken, and we'll see, what does that mean. We'll also do some calculation to figure out, no problem. Let me ask you, is 34% growth, in the... Or 30% growth, that makes a big difference as, is what you are trying to tell me? I think more 30 is a bit of a compromise. See, I'll tell you one thing. Your company is a very new company. All of us are just trying to understand the company. If somebody who's been around and who's a much bigger company grows at 35, for them, 25-30 is fine. For you, as you may be aware also, most investors in small cap or mid cap stocks, they want stronger stocks which do much better, the growth, those stocks to do much better than a large cap stock. It's that basically. I think. Because your company is an excellent company. I think the only thing missing piece is the... That's where things are there and you're probably doing your best from what I hear from you, doing your best. If, I think you are able to give people visibility that profit growth is going to be more in sync with revenue growth, then revenue growth will remain high, 30%, 35%, 40%. Not necessarily need to be 40. If that's going to take two, three years, I think that is where I think the last missing piece will sort of fall in place, in my view. Hello. Good. At least you have opened my eyes, so we'll look into that. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. Can we move to the next? Yeah, sure. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Paras Bothra from Ashika India Alpha Fund. Please go ahead. Thank you for the opportunity. I have one basic question. This is with regard to the business model wherein, do you give data to, how much percentage of your sales is subscription-led? I think we give the data in various splits. I think it's there in the investor deck. you know, I think I'll refer you to that. It's, it will be a very long answer. It's not in one simple way. We are not a since we are a platform and a product company, we are not a plain vanilla services company that somebody asks us to make data for them and then we just hand it over like that. We are not that. That's the uniqueness we have with everybody else in this industry. True. I understand. I was going through the presentation, but it was not clear, so I thought of asking you that what percentage of it is. I take off record sometime. The second question is with regard to the IoT-led business. You said that in your presentation that we sold INR 1.9+ lakh IoT devices, and you said that the possibility could be INR 20+ crore vehicles. In terms of value, what could be the possibility side? I just wanted to understand. Yeah. In terms of value of? This INR 20+ crore vehicles, when you say, what kind of possibilities? I said that's the TAM, total addressable market. Value can be very, very high. That's the whole point that we're trying to make. I mean, we are at INR 60 crores right now with IoT led with INR 1.9 or INR 2 lakh, let's say. Devices. 100x more, 20 labs? Thousand. 1,000x more. It's the orders of magnitude. So 60- We're not saying that we'll get all that. I mean, not all vehicles. We don't visualize getting all of them even in the long shot. There will be other players also. Okay. Third question and the final question, this is with regard to the employee cost. On an annualized basis, if I look at your employee cost is 24%, which has come down from 29% YoY. What do you think that in long term, say from a three to five year perspective, with the kind of service offerings and the platform-led businesses you have, do you think that this cost is going to move proportionately or come down as a percentage? It won't move proportionately to growth in revenue for sure. We're product and platform. We are looking to always add two sets of people, higher skills technical people, and also of course, a little bit on the sales side. Those two things help us. I mean, A, on one side, improve products or scale products, and on the other side, help us get customers. It will obviously not grow as fast as the revenue, and that's the operating leverage in the company. Fine. That's all from my side. Thank you so much, and all the best. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, that would be our last question for today. I now like to hand over the conference to the management for closing comments. Over to you, sir. I just wanna say thank you to those people who are there, and I hope that you've seen a good track record in the last four, five quarters. We are obviously aspiring to build a very, very large company differentiated on technology and products and platforms. With that ambition and aspiration while working steadily, we hope to achieve that. Thank you for being on the journey with us. Thank you. On behalf of DAM Capital Advisors Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us. You may now disconnect your lines.