Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the Muthoot Finance Q4 FY 2022 earnings conference call hosted by B&K Securities India Private Limited. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in listen-only mode. There will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star and zero on your touchtone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Sanket Chheda from Edelweiss Securities India Private Limited. Thank you, and over to you, Sanket. Hi, very good evening to all of you. We have with us the entire management from Muthoot Finance to discuss the full key results. We have George Alexander Muthoot, the MD, sir, and four whole-time directors, Alexander George M. and George M. Jacob. Also we have Executive Director Eapen Alexander Muthoot with CFO who is Oommen K. Mammen. Without any further delay, I would hand over the call to the MD, sir, for the opening remarks, post which, we'll continue with the Q&A session. Thanks a lot, sir, and over to you, George, sir. Sorry, this is the operator. Management members, we request you to please start again. Okay. Thank you. Good evening to all. This is George Alexander Muthoot, Managing Director. Along with me, as suggested, we have the whole-time directors as well as the CFO and the COO, Mr. K.R. Bijimon, also with us. We had the board meeting this morning and the board has considered the financial accounts and the gist of that would be the consolidated loan assets under management increased to INR 64,494 crore. It is up by 11% year-on-year. The consolidated profit after tax also increased to INR 4,031 crore, up by 6%. The standalone assets under management increased to INR 58,053 crore, up by 10%, and standalone profit after tax increased to INR 3,954 crore, again up by 6%. There are a few key milestones for this year, which is the consolidated AUM has crossed INR 64,000 crore in this financial year, and the consolidated profit after tax has also crossed the INR 4,000 crore mark, and the net worth also has crossed INR 18,000 crore mark. We have also paid a 200% dividend on the face value of the shares, involving a payout of INR 803 crore. The branch network is 5,581 compared to 5,451, a 2% increase. As said earlier, the gross assets under management has reached INR 64,000 crore and the consolidated profit to INR 4,031 crore. Both these are 11% and 6% higher than the previous year. We are witnessing signs of recovery in the economy. The RBI rate hike may not dampen overall demand scenario, and we are also expecting borrowing costs to go up gradually during this year. Gold loans are a great help for people in times of need, and as the economy recovers and the overall economic demand rises, our focus will be to make the most of the opportunities and keep innovating further. Gold loan AUM grew by 11% during the financial year 2022, and we remain optimistic about a growth of 12%-15% in the gold loan AUM for the financial year 2023 as well. The digital initiatives have all done well. It is all these are giving us good results, and we want to also expand our loan at home services to more and more branches in India. The Q4 results highlight a steady performance in this quarter. We had disbursed fresh loans to 4 lakh new customers amounting to INR 4,664 crores and to 4.89 lakh inactive customers amounting to INR 4,759 crores in this quarter. We could register a 6% increase in profit after tax for the 12 months. With respect to our subsidiaries, following the rise in demand in the economy, the collections from microfinance, vehicle finance, home loans have improved. We aim to further improve our collections in these segments. However, we will continue to adopt a balanced growth strategy given the ongoing macroeconomic environment, and we continue to be cautious on the microfinance and the vehicle finance business. I think this is a gist of what was discussed, what is the results of the company and its subsidiaries which were considered at the board meeting. Now, I think I will leave it to the audiences for their queries. Thank you very much. Suggestions. Thank you very much, sir. We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touchtone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Our recipients are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. The first question is from the line of Abhijit Tibrewal from Motilal Oswal. Please go ahead. Yes, thank you for taking my question, sir. So three questions. First, what has led to this weak gold loan demand in your core customer segments, which were typically this, I would say INR 40 thousand-INR 60 thousand kind of a ticket size gold loan customer? That's the first question. The second question is, sir, on the yields. If I understand right, there was a yield compression of about 200 basis points sequentially that we saw in the fourth quarter. Do you believe that this is the new normal for the sustained yields that you can make? Do you think that the competitive intensity in the last, I would say two and a half months has eased out significantly, and that the yields have also bottomed out, and then incrementally you can deliver higher spreads in FY 2023. Lastly, I mean, from what I see, the Gross Stage 3 assets is still elevated at about 3%. Is it because Sir, I mean, your peer who reported last week, they suggested that they had made some changes in their accounting norms in terms of recognition of NPAs. Earlier they used to consider even collections received in one month following the end of the quarter while reporting the NPA as on the end of the quarter. Have you also done something similar, or is it because the auctions were lower during the quarter? Sir, lastly, if you can share, I mean, what was the quantum of auctions and the accrued interest as on March 2022? Okay. Thank you. Your first question was about the loan or the average ticket size. The average ticket size has definitely gone up from INR 40,000 to INR 60,000 to much higher levels. It is actually the part of the growth in the economy only. People who are borrowing earlier are borrowing more. That's all. It's only I should say upward movement of the. Borrowers. Of the customers. The yields and spreads, yes, we consciously had done. Hold on. A teaser rates on the yields so that we could get more customers, and it has been quite successful. We were able to get quite a lot of new customers during the last quarter and also during the end of the third quarter. To that extent, it has been successful. We have been able to grow our AUM. We've been able to attract a lot of customers who were hesitant to go elsewhere. Of course, we have now discontinued the very low yield schemes and because the period of that or the period of that that. Low interest rate. The period of the low interest scheme which we started, we wanted to discontinue. Now we should see more customers coming. Since we have got these customers, we will see that we continue to- Retain. Retain these customers going forward and probably the yield also should start inching up. Certainly, what we did was a conscious decision to acquire customers. It is for a limited period, and that period is over. Now we have discontinued the very low interest schemes. Your next question was about stage three assets, and we have not made any change. It is the- Well, no, we have been always following the based on the number of days past due. There's no change as far as we are concerned, classification. The quantum remains higher because that is a conscious call. As we have been telling in every call that, no, we are not too much worried about the S3 assets because ultimately we are going to recover this amount. It's just, now we are giving some more time to the customers to pay the amount. Last few quarters. Your specific question was about whether we made any change. We have not made any change. If the NPA is less or high it is just because we are giving more time to the customers to repay. We are not unduly concerned whether we are going to lose because the gold is safe, the asset is safe, and we will not lose money there. The auctions for the quarter is INR 2,100 crores and accrued interest is INR 2,071 crores. 20? 71. 71. 2071 is the accrued interest. Auctions we have done is INR 2,100 crores. Sir, thank you so much. Sir, if I can just squeeze in one follow-up question. I mean, does the weak gold loan demand that we are seeing today, does that worry you, or do you think this is just, cyclical and gold loan demand should improve, I mean, in the coming quarters? Yes. I don't think we see any weak demand. The demand is not weak. It is just probably the hangover of the March is only what usually happens in the first two weeks of April. I think demand is picking up and demand should pick up. I think we are back to normal. We don't factor. No. We grew by INR 3,300 crore in the fourth quarter, so it's not a weak demand for us. We have been able to grow unlike our peers. Finally, we could do a double-digit growth for the full year. You know, we grew by 11% in gold loan for FY 2022, though we lost first quarter due to the third wave and third quarter because of the larger auctions. In spite of that, we could do a double-digit growth. That is quite a good achievement which we could do in spite of all the headwinds. Thank you, sir. That's all from my end. Wish you and your team the very best for FY 23. Thank you. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Deepak Gupta from SBI Pension Funds. Please go ahead. Hi. Good evening, sir. Thank you for taking my question. Continuing the previous participant question on interest yields. Where do you see interest yields for your company ending up, given the fact that I think this has been the sharpest decline quarter-over-quarter ever from Muthoot Finance. So at what level you think interest yield is likely to stabilize for the overall book? See, the interest yields maybe probably declined because in the last 4-5 months in the last year, we had started the new campaign of the low interest scheme, and that low interest schemes has actually given us benefit. Now that we have discontinued the low interest schemes, we should go back to the old, the earlier yield scheme. Of course, since the borrowing cost has come down, probably the yield may not be high, but we will try to maintain our spreads. That is what we'll be trying to do. Our achievement will be not more on the yield but on the spread. Sir, given now, incrementally your borrowing costs will be going up, right? Given the way interest rates are shaping up. So to maintain the spread you will have to increase interest rates, if I'm not mistaken. I think we will have to do this. The whole world rates are going up, then our customers will also understand that rates are going up and we will have to do that. Usually we try to keep our spreads almost same. We try our best to keep our spreads same, and that is what is actually what should we say? Whether our focus should be on the interest spread. If borrowing rates are going up, then lending rates, not only for us, the whole world will go. Whole world means for all the borrowers will go and that is Understand, sir. Is there any spread that you want to call out that these are the kind of spreads you want to maintain? Yeah. We were thinking, we were looking at about 10, in the range of 10, maybe, plus minus something here, but the general range should be in the range of about 10%. Understand, sir. Secondly, just wanted to understand, you know, this quarter your cost income ratio has been extremely high. Obviously understand, because the interest income is low, but how do you see your cost income ratio shaping up for your company in the next two years? I think if you take the overall total year, it will be the same. The quarter, some quarter extra payments may be there in some quarter, but if you look at the year as a whole, it is. 0.25%. It is the same. You look at it for the full year because some expenses come in some quarters and that is what the cost income ratio. We should be able to maintain our cost because our per branch AUM is also little going up only. I think the cost income should be as it is, will continue as in the previous year's ratio. Sure. I hear that. Sir, thirdly, on this INR 70 crore of interest reversal that you've done on the impairment, if you could just share some perspective on that. What exactly was this on account of? Sorry. Can you just repeat that question? Sir, for this quarter you've done INR 70 crores of reversal of impairment of loans. For the- For the quarter. Yeah. What exactly? No, we review this, you know, probability of default and loss given default every March, year end. Two things have happened. One, our NPA for December was INR 2,100 crores. Now it has come down to INR 1,700 crores. You know, that has reduced the provisioning requirement for the quarter. Second, you know, the ratios have come down little bit lower, so that also has played a role in terms of reversals. But all of a sudden our It's for the quarter. For the quarter. For the full year it is not a reversal. Understand, sir. Sir, last question is on your Sri Lankan subsidiary. Given the crisis which is taking place in Sri Lanka right now, what is your view on the subsidiary? I know it's very capitalized, but how do you see that shaping up over the next 12 months? Thank you. See, one thing which we have when we went to Sri Lanka itself, we had decided that, we would be going more on the gold loan front. Today as we speak, the gold loan business is 75% of the total portfolio. The rest, only the rest is some small, trader loans, et cetera. As you would understand that because of the depreciation, the value of the Sri Lankan rupee and the value of the dollar and Indian rupee also going up, the gold price has really shot up there. What we have given is all gold loans, and that is today, very safe. The margins et cetera are extremely safe there. As a portfolio, we don't see any issues. Of course, we have been talking to our people in Sri Lanka. The situation is not as bad as some of the newspapers et cetera say. I think they will all survive. Things are getting better also. Today, I also think that their depreciation of the Sri Lankan rupee has, I think, bottomed out and probably it will start going up only. Overall, the economy and the country will revive. As far as our portfolio is concerned, it's extra strong today. Sure. I hear that. Sir, just last question from my end. You know, your credit growth guidance, you know, last quarter, last year you had made 12%-15% guidance. You've ended at 11%. So would you maintain the similar kind of guidance for FY 2023 in terms of credit growth? I think we will maintain the 12%-15% guidance we will maintain. It's our job to see that and we'll see. We'll try our best. Sure. Okay. This is why we are here for. Sure. Thank you. Thank you, George. Thank you. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Gaurav Kochar from Mirae Asset. Please go ahead. Yeah, good evening, sir. Thanks for taking my question. Sir, in the previous question you answered the spread is 10% if I'm wrong, correct me. The current spread that we are making is 10.91% for the quarter and for the full year, it's much higher. Even if I look at last year, you know, the spread was anywhere between 13%-13.5%. So I mean, where does this 10% come from? I know 10% is something which we set the bottom rate, something 10% is we are happy with the 10% even. If good years we can make 11, 12, 13. Very good years we will make 13%. That, probably anything about 10, 11, that is what is reasonable, and I think we should be able to do that. Sir, given that the teaser rates are now, I mean, you've stopped doing the loans at teaser rates, should we expect that spreads will only improve from here on? Currently 10.93%, at least from these levels should we expect this improvement? The teaser rate impact will take some more months in this quarter also. It's not that the moment we stop teaser rates it is. Impact of that will take in this quarter also. Finally, that's what I said, 10%-11% and around 10% is what we should see the spread. I think that is quite reasonable. Okay. Sure. For the full year, I mean, anything that you'd like to guide for FY 2023 full year? I think we have guided at 12%-15% AUMs, gold loan AUM growth, sir. Oh, no, I'm talking about spread, sir. Spread, that's what I said. We will try to maintain 10%, around this 10%. Probably something above 10% also. It also depends on how things are panning out also. Okay. Sure. Sir, on the growth front, while you know this quarter if I look at INR 2,100 crore, if I adjust for that INR 2,100 crore auction, the growth is around INR 5,400 crore. That's roughly 10% of your AUM. If the growth is that strong, the demand is that strong, why the guidance is only 12%-15% for the next year? Yeah. See, this is the fourth quarter we did that. The first quarter we did not do anything. Second quarter we were able to do something. Third quarter we had again the similar auctions also. There are so many headwinds also coming across. We didn't want to do a very high guidance and then underachieve it. We have always been saying 12%-15%, and that is what we would be trying to do, probably. We may be able to do better also. Okay. Anyway, thanks for your good calculation of 5,400. Sure, sir. Sir, on the liquidity, now that you've given that margins may be for next quarter also may be under pressure, and the growth will be probably soft. Just perplexes me why do we keep so much liquidity on the balance sheet? Because, maybe a year and a half back when the growth was very strong, 25%-30%, you know, having 15%, 17% liquidity on balance sheet, was reasonable. Now if the growth is going to be soft and, at least the cost of money is getting dearer and dearer, is it not prudent to cut down some liquidity which we are carrying around 18%, 20% liquidity or as a percentage of borrowings? Would it be fair to reduce this over the next quarter or so? Yeah. We also would like to reduce it, but understand always that we are an NBFC, we are not a bank. We don't get any support from regulators with regard to liquidity, et cetera. We have to find our own means and ways. I think keeping a liquidity, we know it has got a negative carry, but it has always. Yeah. It helped us only. We don't want to take any risk. I don't see a risk at least. We don't have anything negative, you know, on our side with regard to liquidity. That is why we are keeping something extra. I know it carries a negative, but then that is, we should consider it as part of the NBFC or part of the type of business we are doing. We are an NBFC, always remember that. That is what we have to find our own way forward. If I look at the pre-COVID run rate, the liquidity used to be 7%-8% of borrowings or even lower than that, even FY 2018, 2019. During COVID one would understand that, you know, there could be some liquidity crisis and the growth was also strong during COVID, at least for FY 2021. To that extent, I mean liquidity, excess liquidity on the balance sheet was maybe the right way to go. Now given that there is multiple headwinds as you pointed out on growth as well as, you know, challenges on pricing, would it not be fair to, you know, let some of the spreads compression getting absorbed by pruning down excess liquidity? What harm if the liquidity- Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. It's not only the COVID. Even before COVID Yeah. Our problem with liquidity et cetera was always the IL&FS. The IL&FS. IL&FS and DHFL. All those things actually unsettle all the lenders to us. See, all the lenders to us, they become unsettled when such a thing happens. I don't rule out any such things. I can't guarantee that such things won't happen in future. Keeping liquidity is costly. I know it is costly. What should we say? We have been suggesting that, and board is also comfortable saying that, keep a little liquidity. This is because if some of these things happen, all the lenders to us will panic. At that time we will be left to ourselves. That is what I said. In such a situation, there is no Reserve Bank or regulator coming forward and saying, "We will support you." I don't think so. Moreover, there is a liquidity, you know, LCR requirement, liquidity coverage ratio requirement for, you know, NBFCs. Right. That is about 60%. For that we have to keep some amount. You know, always rating agencies also prefer, you know, different agencies have got different rules of thumb, especially the foreign agencies. You know, they also are more comfortable probably, you know, that is also the reason why, you know, some of the rating agencies they did not downgrade us. You know, I'm talking about international agencies during the COVID period, even though they have done for some other NBFCs. All these factors play a role in terms of maintaining a high liquidity. Even with all these limitations, we are trying to do some rationalization in terms of liquidity so that, you know, negative carry comes down to the minimum. Right. We are trying to do that. If you look at, you know, last quarter also our borrowing cost has come down. You know, within all these restrictions, we are trying to do that. You know, probably we will fine tune this in the next couple of quarters. Sure. Perfect. This last question from my side. How do you see the, you know, the MFI environment for fiscal year 2023 and any sort of growth targets for your microfinance subsidiary? Thanks. I think MFI is a sector which will grow, continue to grow. It is a sector which everybody, all governments wants to grow. that is the only way government can spend money in the hands of people. there will be support from the government, there's support from banks, everybody will support it. I think going forward also MFI will continue to grow. Of course, when we compare an NBFC, a loan, a gold loan with an MFI, it is quite different. MFI is a separate business altogether. I think there is potential for an MFI going forward also. Sir, new regulation is also. New regulations also supporting MFI growth. Yeah, it is supporting. The new regulations which have come about interest rates, et cetera. Yeah. Supporting MFIs. Yes. Only with a calibrated growth, but then there is potential there. Sure. Any number that you'd like to give? No, I think they have a target also for MFI target. I think they have a reasonable growth target. Our MFI, the last quarter, I don't know, 3, 4 months back, we got Only at 32%. It has got INR 1,000 crore of growth in there. There's Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Sure. I'll take that offline, sir. Thank you so much and all the very best. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Subhransu Mishra from UBS. Please go ahead. Hi, sir. Thank you for the opportunity. A couple of questions, sir. One is on the growth versus deals. [inaudible] Your voice is not clear. Your voice is not very clear, sir. One second. Hello? Yes. Okay. Sure, sir. Would it be a fair assumption to understand that the rates for the customers have got attuned to lower rates because of the competition in the last two odd years, post-COVID and because there was some amount of regulatory arbitrage with banks. Going forward also we would see lower rates and lower yields. That's the first question. The second question is on the promoter holdings. Is there a way the businesses can be split among the family? Has that been decided? Has that been written down somewhere that if there is a split among the promoters, some amount of business would go here and some can go here. That's the second question, sir. The third question would be on the liquidity, sir. You just answered it, but we are carrying huge amount of liquidity despite having a very strong collateral, sir. Gold is absolutely liquid. I'm really perplexed as to why a rating agency would not look at us differently despite us being a NBFC, because on one side of the balance sheet we've got an absolute liquid collateral. Today there are multiple agencies who can lend to us. It's not just banks or mutual funds. We can go to some other source of funding as well. So the liquidity is also fairly perplexing despite the LCR norms and despite all the answers you just gave, sir. If you can answer these questions. Thanks. Thank you. Yes, you are right. Probably, in the last two years et cetera, banks have been giving, supporting people with the low rates during the COVID et cetera. That is one set of people. Probably one set of people would have enjoyed and maybe they may be expecting lower rates. This, the potential or the rates for gold loan is so large that there will be so many others who will still be willing to pay a higher rate for a quick loan from an NBFC. We don't see any issues there with having some customers who have now got attuned to a lower rate. Some customers probably. They may be like that, but the others, the large number who are not so interest sensitive will still continue to use gold loan as a comfort gold loan and a quick gold loan. Second question is about split in the family with regard to this. There is nothing like that here. I think the promoter family continues to hold all the 75%. Whatever we had at the time of IPO, we still continue to hold. We have not sold even one share till now, and I think we have not thought about such things. The third point, again, you said about gold loan being absolutely a liquid collateral. But the unfortunate fact is we know it's evident, but no. I think you. Nobody is willing to acknowledge it. I think I'll take you to one of the meetings with Reserve Bank or one of the You ask the question in this forum, good. Probably some of the representatives of the agencies are also participating, so they are also listening to it. Good that you ask this question. We would like you to accompany us to some of the regulators, maybe when we talk to them or to the rating agencies, et cetera. Sir, we would also love to keep very little because before all this IL&FS crisis, et cetera, we were working with very little collateral. We were saying that our gold loans is so liquid that if there is any issue in the company, the first people to run to the branch will be the gold loan customers to take back their gold. But that didn't cut a lot of ice with many of the agencies to whom I spoke. They said, "That may be so, but we would like to see some liquidity in your balance sheet." Anyway, let's say a big question here and there, sir. Finally, we have to look at our side, and for that, we are keeping this liquidity, sir. Right, sir. Thank you. If I can just squeeze in one last question, sir. Data keeping question. What proportion of the AUM is below 1 lakh, and what proportion is between 1-2, and what is above 2 lakhs, sir? I'll just update this number. Maybe we can take the next question. While you are answering the next question, we'll update this also. Sure. Subhransu, do you have any further questions? No, thanks. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Nischint Chawathe from Kotak Securities. Please go ahead. Hi, this is Nischint Chawathe from Kotak. Just two questions. One is, you know, on the spread side, you are running ahead of, you know, what spreads you would want to maintain. Why do you really want to stop the teaser rate scheme? You should probably continue, or maybe you can offer some better rates to the customer. Yeah, sir. We always wanted to give a lower, whether it is a growth rate or the spread rate, we wanted to give a lower one and maybe achieve better. Isn't that better than saying a higher rate and achieving lower? If you consider it in that sense only. Sure. Is it something that you are expecting the cost of funding to increase, you know, in a significant manner? No. There are so many issues and things coming up every time. We just didn't want to give too optimistic a number. That's all. It's really that way only. Sure. The second question is really on branch openings. I believe one of your competitors mentioned that you know, RBI is not very sort of forthcoming with branch openings or you know, there are constraints or there are a lot of delays in getting approvals from RBI for you know, for the permission of opening new branches. Are you facing a similar sort of a problem? Yeah. We are also facing delays from the regulator for branch opening. Anyway, at that time, we are now trying to do business in the existing branches, which itself is good, but a few branches extra would have been better. That's all. Just trying to understand the branch opening application goes to the central office or does it go to the respective state offices of RBI? It is all our correspondents are with the local office, but then of course, they consult the central office and make 99% of the decisions. In your discussions with the regulator, I mean, what could really be a concern that the regulator has? I mean, if anything, during COVID, you know, monetization of gold is something which has actually helped, you know, people a lot at the bottom of the pyramid. What is it that is concerning the regulator, and why is it that they are sort of a little more cautious in giving more branch licenses? I think some of it may be a local issue only. Local issue. Anyway, even if we ask, they will not come out with the real reason. They always- Probably earlier banks were facing this challenge in terms of the branch licensing, probably, you know. Now, we are facing delays. There could no particular reasons could be attributed. At least we have not heard anything, any particular reason for delays in terms of branch approvals. We give the applications, you know. It's for them to process it and, you know, send it back to us. No red flags raised in any audits for any of the gold loan companies. Is that a fair point to say? Yes, sir. If there is a red flag, they will stop the business. I mean, I'm not saying for you. I'm saying that, you know, for anybody else in the industry. No, sir. Every time there will be some aches and pains. That's all. Otherwise, I see no red flags. Perfect. Those were my questions. Thank you very much and all the best. Yeah. There was an earlier question on, in terms of, you know, loans above IND 1 lakh. Loans above IND 1 lakh will be 58% and loans below IND 1 lakh will be 42%. Between above INR 2 lakhs? I don't have above INR 2 lakhs. Above INR 3 lakhs will be 22%. In terms of AUMs, right? In terms of AUM, yeah. Perfect. Great. Thank you very much. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Nikhil Agrawal from VT Capital. Please go ahead. Hi, sir. Good evening. Thank you for taking my question. I just have one question with regard to the auction first of all, the number that you mentioned, INR 2,100 crores. What proportion of that would be coming from quarter two 2021 or [inaudible] Sir, it's not very clear. You are little fast also. Just okay, please. Oh, okay. Am I audible now? Sure. Yes, sir. Sir, am I audible now? Yeah, audible. Yeah, with regard to the auction amount of INR 2,100 crore that you mentioned, would it be possible to quantify what the portion of that is coming from quarter 2 FY 2021 versus the INR 50,000 crore? Quarter two it will be INR 2,800 crores. Sir, it was mentioned that there were some loans that were not auctioned off, and they were still in the last quarter. Is there any number from this 2,100 that is referring from that quarter? Well, always, it should be always there. It is a continuing process. Whatever is left there, it will, if it is needs to be auctioned in the succeeding quarter, it will be auctioned. There is nothing that, we keep, a particular account et cetera. Some customers would ask for some time. We would have given them some time. If, if they are not coming within that time, the next auction we will just auction it off. The number we gave is the auction done in that quarter, not pertaining to any loans became due in that quarter. The auction actually done. It could be from any quarter. The loan could have become due in any of the previous quarters. Okay, sir. Sir, with regard to the non-gold loan business, this is 50% of the total business right now. Is there any plan to increase this proportion in the coming future? Increase proportion of what? The non-gold loan business. No. Yeah, if there is a requirement, if the subsidiary you're telling about. If the subsidiary is doing well and it needs more AUM, we'll do it. As of date, we would love to do more of gold loans. Having said that, we would not hesitate from going into any of the subsidiaries also with the appropriate time. Probably in the next three, four quarters, we don't see a big Need for capital. Big need for growing those other subsidiaries. Microfinance raised some funds in the last quarter. Are you asking about the capital allocation? That is another question with regard to the capital allocation for equity infusion that was mentioned in MFI. That is another question, but I was asking about the proportion of non-gold loan business going forward. Non-gold loans business today is about. 10%. -10%. 10%. 10%. Probably 1%, 2%, depending on the comfort we get in that sector. Sir, with regard to the equity infusion in MFI? MFI equity infusion is done actually. It's done. It's done. It has come. It's INR 300 crore. 275. INR 275 crores have come. All right, sir. Sir, just one last question. The 17% reduction in GN3, how exactly should we look at it, sir? Where does it come from? 17% reduction in? The GNPA numbers from quarter three. No, NPA was INR 2,100 crore and right now, you know, as of March, it is INR 1,700 crore. Is that what you are asking? Yes, sir. It just means that, during that quarter, some of the customers' loans got closed and the new customers coming into NPA are lesser. That's all. It is, what should I say, a moving number. Okay. Thank you. That's okay. Sir, it is not that there's any old NPA account lying there. It is very dynamic. All the NPAs which are there are not more than 3-4 months NPA. That's all. We don't have any very long outstanding NPAs at all. It is just very moving. What you see this quarter will not be there in the next quarter. It will be a new set of numbers in the next quarter. It just happened that in the next quarter, many people would have taken it off, and that is why the NPA is lesser. Okay. Thank you, sir. Thank you. Best of luck for future quarters. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Digant Haria from GreenEdge Wealth. Please go ahead. Yeah. Hi, sir. Sir, see, Muthoot, we are the largest player, so we don't have the option of not participating in, say, the large ticket gold loans, you know. Maybe you know what, from whatever I know, large ticket gold loans above INR 2 lakh have a lot of competition. That segment, you know, we will continue to face yield pressure because nobody is just backing off. As Muthoot, as you know, we have 4,500 branches. Are we doing anything special to ensure that, you know, even the less than INR 1 lakh ticket size, you know, where pricing is still intact, that grows faster than, you know, the higher ticket loans? Is that possible? You know, as a company, what is our strategy here or, you know, any thoughts on this front? Yeah, I think what you said is right. Theoretically, it is right that we should be concentrating more on the lower INR 1 lakh ticket size less than INR 1 lakh ticket size. Yes, that's a good strategy, and we always continue to do that for customers also. We are always. We don't differentiate between customers, whether big customer or low customer, et cetera. Yes, the number which you said, INR 1 lakh and INR 2 lakh may be too low. Probably it is the INR 5 lakh and INR 10 lakh, et cetera, which should be seen as a big ticket customer today. The money value is so low now that INR 1 lakh and all, everybody can get INR 1 lakh, et cetera. The strategy which you said is very apt and correct, and always we are conscious of that and we try to support the smaller customers always because we know that is a better set of customers who just don't go here and there just because of some interest rate differential, et cetera. We know that and we are aware of that, and we have strategies to see that the loyal customers don't go away from us. Right. Because, you know, these small ticket customers, you know, everything will probably happen at the branch level. It's not easy to pull them in. It will be, you know, your branch guys will have to do very hard work, so. Yeah, you're absolutely right, sir. All right, sir. Okay, so, sir, just your thoughts on, you know, versus back, you know, the competition has increased. The yields have been under, like, you know, there are a lot of random players offering random fees. So, you know, do you see this settling anytime soon or, you know, it is still maybe 6-12 months more before we reach the new equilibrium level? Because, you know, we were doing 8% ROA in gold loan business. We are probably at 7% now. You know, where is our equilibrium and the sector equilibrium? Any thoughts on this? I'm not looking for specific answers, but just your observation. I think there are, as you said correctly, the correct word is random players. Many random players have now started coming into this. That's a good terminology. I'm sure those people will lose interest and go away, sir. We saw this happening in 2011 also. 2011, 2012, so many players came in. They were not serious players. I wouldn't call them random players, non-serious players. Of course, your terminology random looks quite nice now. Okay, but these non-serious players will lose interest quickly, sir, because gold loan is not a very easy, the processes, et cetera, and things are not easy. Non-serious players will just back off after a while. Give them some time. Probably I think that one or two quarters. sir, you know, I get it. The random players will go. There's, you know, some players like, say, you know, an SBI or a Federal or a CSB, like, you know, they have somewhat built a book at least, you know. You know, I think maybe in the next few years we'll still have those. Those will still remain. Just, you know, any aggression from those players. You know, the random players will go, but at least the middle tier or, you know, the middle tier players who are. Yeah. I think banks being serious players in this can work wonders in the sense that it will attract more and more customers to the gold loan sector, sir. That is the advantage we see. When banks also start doing gold loan, the most of the stigma to gold loan, et cetera, will vanish. More and more people will start maybe using the gold loan model. That is what I see. Banks there is one only I should see the positive side of it, of course. The negative side is probably a little bit of competition, but then the positive side is that more and more customers will get attracted or will think of gold loan as a good option, and that itself is good. Mm-hmm. Right. State Bank and all these banks have been doing gold loan for the past decade. They, all the banks which you said have been doing this for last decade. Right. Right, sir. Thank you. That's it from my side. Thank you and all the best to the team, sir. Thank you. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Jitark Shah from SBI Pension Funds. Please go ahead. Hi, sir. Just thank you for the opportunity, sir. Just one question. Could you please elaborate on the other expenses which has gone up, like almost 15%-18% this quarter? Give us a minute. Sure. You can take some other question in the meanwhile if there is anybody. Jitark, do you have any further questions? No. Thank you. Thank you. We'll move to the next question from the line of Nirmal Bari from Sameeksha Capital. Please go ahead. Yes. For the opportunity. Question. Sorry to interrupt, sir. Your voice is breaking up in between. Yeah, thanks for the opportunity. [inaudible] Sorry to interrupt, sir. We are not able to hear you clearly. Would request to please join the queue back. Anyway, I will answer the earlier question. The administrative expense of 2021 was INR 723 crores, and in this year it is for the full year, it is INR 7,421 crores. I think there is hardly any increase. If it is quarter-over-quarter, it is maybe a seasonal thing only. For the full year. Quarter-on-quarter, Q4, it is INR 206 crores. Q3, it is INR 183 crores, so the increase is about, you know, 20- No, but, take it as a whole year, sir. The whole year it is. Last year it was 7,723. This year it is 742. Nothing. I don't think it is any material increase. Thanks. Thank you. Can we go to the next question? Yes. Yes. We'll move to the next question from the line of Prakhar Agrawal from Edelweiss. Please go ahead. Yeah. Hi, sir. Just a couple of questions. One, to understand the logic behind introducing a teaser rate loan when we are saying that we are not seeing demand, gold loan demand which has gone down. What was the logic behind first starting with the teaser loan? If that is because of the competition that we were seeing, then why have we stopped it, essentially when obviously our target spreads is lower than what we are earning on the book as we speak? The teaser rates was for a specific period. It was for a specific purpose to get new set of customers. We have achieved that, and then we have discontinued it. What was the logic? If we were seeing that gold demand has not come down, gold loan demand has not come down, and we were seeing a fair share of demand, what was the logic of introducing this teaser scheme? Is it because of the competition that we were seeing that we introduced, or what was the logic behind introducing this? No. See, one, the rate of interest has come down in the market when, you know, home loans, everybody advertise at 6% and suddenly, you know, some of the gold loan players starts up at a very low rate. You know, acceptability as a product. You know, being a market leader we need to ensure that, you know, product is accepted by the staff as well as the public. When we do large scale spending on advertisements, we need to, you know, do something which is acceptable to the customers. That is why MP sir mentioned that it was for a period. You know? There was a specific objective. Now that objective is met, we are moving on. Okay. Just in continuation with that as well. When we looked at this fact that probably other guys were offering lower rates and all those stuff, why our business promotion expense for the quarter is first there is a write back of INR 14-odd crore and even for a full year when I look at your promotion expense that has gone down significantly. What explains that? Promotion expense should have been probably the advertisement and the things. Advertisement is definitely required. Probably in the last year advertisements, I don't know the exact number of advertisements. I mean, less because of this COVID, et cetera. We would have done less advertisements. Now that the things have opened up, we would have started more advertisements. I'm not exactly sure about the number. Those numbers are just small proportion to the total business only. Just to give a number. This quarter we have reported a write-back of provision or business provision expense of INR 14-odd crore. What explains that write-back? Probably there will be some, you know, provisions which we have made in the past. Provision? We would have reversed. Business promotion or provision? Business promotion. Okay. Yeah. Some provisions which you made would have been reversed. Yeah. Okay. Just couple of more questions. In terms of teaser rate when you offered, what was the sort of rates that you guys were offering and what was the AUM that you garnered from that loan, that rate? Well, actually, we went up to 6.9%, which was the lowest teaser rate which we did. We got sufficient business there also. I don't have the exact number here with me. Okay. Just one last question. When you talk about FY 2023 growth of around 12%-15%, any indication of what is AUM per gram growth that you are looking at and what is volume growth that you are looking within that 12%-15% growth range? I didn't understand your question. Volume growth and gram rate. What is it? Value versus volume. When you talk about 12%-15% of overall growth, what is coming from volume and what is coming from value under your assumptions? We don't look at value at all. We look at only the AUM. AUM is rupees, money. Only that is what is looked at. You, if you are thinking about gold per se, that is not our gold. It is somebody else's gold. There is no need of any numbers on the gold. It depends on the gold price only. What we are talking about is the value of the AUM. Value of the AUM will grow because of two things. One is number of customers addition and second will be AUM per gram addition because of that particular customers. I'm just asking between these two, have we sort of seen any bifurcation as to what is the sort of number of customer additions that we foresee for the full year next year? Number of customers, we don't have a list on the number of customers. On the value of the gold, the value of the gold will depend on the gold price at the time of lending. If the gold price goes up, the rate per gram will be higher. If the gold price is down, we will have to reduce the lending. It is dependent on the gold price only. Got it. That is it from my side. Thank you so much. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Nirmal Bari from Sameeksha Capital. Please go ahead. Yeah. Am I audible, Justin? Yes, please. Okay, you are audible now. Correct. Yeah. Yes, sir. My first question is actually on the yields part only. This quarter the yields came down primarily because of the teaser rates and all. Given the competitive intensity and, have we also reduced the top end of the rates, which was earlier I believe at 22%? Have we reduced that now? No, no. The top-up rate still continues there. Okay. That is, despite the interest rates that had come down last year, we didn't change that, right? Yeah. See, very few people reach the top rate. Top rate is fully when the loan gets in the books by maybe 11, 12 months only. 95% of the customers release the gold before that. The second part is on the accrued interest. You said the accrued interest is about INR 2,071 crore. What was the normal figure for this? If you could give the data for FY 2020, March end FY 2020, that would be helpful. Sure. Yes, please. Give her a minute, please. Yes. Any other questions? There was a question on business promotion. I know there is a reversal of INR 14 crore, so that is on account of reversal of some of the earlier provisions which was in excess, which got reversed in Q4. That's why, you know, for the quarter, it is coming as fourteen crores as a reversal. In terms of the provisions as of 2020- No. Provisions as of March 2020, the interest. Sorry for that. Sir, we've lost the connection from management. Just hold while we reconnect. This is the operator. We have the line from management reconnected. Yeah. Can you hear us? Can you hear us? Yeah. Yes, sir. Yes. Okay. March 2020, the accrued interest was INR 1,557 crores. Okay. The final question on our vehicle finance and home finance segment. How are we looking at these two now in the current year and would we be looking to start growing that book or we would still continue to be cautious. We'll be continued to be cautious, but we will. We have started growing the book in vehicle finance as well as the home finance. It will be but a calibrated cautious growth. Do we have some targets for that in the current year? Yeah. We have given some small targets for them also. Probably not a big number to write home about, but then they have started the Okay, sir. Thank you. That was it. Thank you. Next question is from the line of Ajit Chaudhuri from Tata Securities. Please go ahead. Thank you, sir. Thanks for this opportunity. My first question is on the average ticket sizes. While I understand that it has increased, but on the branches side, when you're deciding on the branch manager or branch productivity, are you giving the branches any specific ranges that they need to have some portion of their loan generated to X percentage of ticket size or some portion of loan to have a ticket size higher than this? Is there any kind of division or regional that you have done to the branches? No, no. It depends on the type of customers coming there. If it is a high-value customers, they take a higher loan. Low-value customers. It depends on the geography also. In that particular area, if it is, sometimes low-ticket customers may be more. We have not made any differentiation. Understand. That's helpful, sir. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. That was the last question in the interest of time. I now hand the conference over to management for closing comments. Can you hear us? Yes, sir. We can hear you. Thank you all. Thank you all participants for participating with us. Your questions and your suggestions are always valuable to us. We definitely value it. That is why most of our senior management is also attending this. Please continue to guide us. Please continue to give us your good valued opinions. Finally, rest assured that we from the management will work hard and see that the company and the stakeholders, all the stakeholders, whether it is the borrower, lender or the equity investor, benefited by associating with Muthoot. Thank you all. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you all. On behalf of Edelweiss Securities, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.