Good day, thank you for standing by. Welcome to PETRONAS Chemicals Group Analyst Briefing for quarter ended 31st March, 2023. At this time, all participants are in a listen only mode. After the speaker's presentation, there will be a question and answer session. To ask a question during the session, you need to press star 11 on your telephone. Please be advised that today's conference is being recorded. I'd now like to hand the call over to your first speaker today, Ms. Alia, Head of Investor Relations. Thank you. Please go ahead. Thank you, Desmond. Hello, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to PETRONAS Chemicals Group Berhad analyst briefing for the first quarter financial year 2023. I'm Alia, Head of Investor Relations. Thank you for joining our call this evening. You should by now be able to access and download the financial results from the Bursa Malaysia website, as well as today's presentation materials from our corporate website or in the links provided in the event invitation. Ladies and gentlemen, we are pleased to have our speakers for today's briefing, our Managing Director and CEO, Mr. Mohammad Yusri, and our CFO, Mr. Azli. Also present to take questions after the presentation are the rest of the senior management, comprising of our Chief Manufacturing Officer, Mr. Zamri, Chief Marketing Officer, Mr. Syafiq, and Head of Strategic Planning and Ventures, Mr. Yaakob. Without further ado, I shall now hand you over to Mr. Yusri for the performance highlights. Thank you, Alia. Yusri here. Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for joining us today. When we last met in February, there were hopeful indications that the global economy could experience gradual improvement, with expectations of decreasing inflation and stable growth, as well as increased activity with the reopening of China. We were disrupted by the negative developments within the banking sector and the subsequent tightening of monetary policies, which raised concerns on its potential impact on the global economic recovery. Nonetheless, we saw slight growth in GDP at 1.7% as compared to 1.5% recorded in the fourth quarter of 2022. Global PMI also saw marginal improvement at 49.5 in first quarter of 2023, as compared to 48.9 in the preceding quarter, which with improved orders and demand growth, boosted again by China's reopening. The benchmark Brent crude, however, declined 7% to average at $83 per barrel, as compared to $89 per barrel at the end of last year, on higher supply from the U.S. and poor economy indicators. Urea and ammonia saw prices decline on weak demand and oversupply. However, other petrochemical product prices were mostly assessed higher quarter-on-quarter, on seasonal demand pickup and supply tightness. Let's look on at our first quarter highlights. Moving on to our performance of the first quarter as released today. Ladies and gentlemen, we start from the top left graph. We had two pit stops during the quarter, and these are short maintenance shutdowns, namely at our one of our polymer plant and our aromatic plant. With our other plants running well, we recorded only a slightly lower group plant utilization rate of 96% as compared to 100% last quarter. Sales from our Malaysia operations volume were lower, in line with the lower production, but we were supported by improved sales in the specialties segment. Group revenue fell 13% quarter-on-quarter to MYR 7.6 billion, mainly to the lower sales volume. EBITDA, as you can see, for the group, declined 38% to MYR 1.1 billion, with lower sales volume and lower product spreads, particularly for urea and ammonia, and also pre-operating costs of a joint operation company. EBITDA margin was recorded at 14%. PAT, on the other hand, improved 11% to MYR 536 million, with lower foreign exchange loss on revaluation of loans, as well as higher contribution from our joint ventures and associate company. I'll have Azli to take you through the details and colors of our financial performance. Thank you, Yusri. Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for joining us today. Let's break down the financial performance by segment, starting with the Olefins and Derivatives segment on page 3 of the deck, comparing first quarter of 2023 against fourth quarter of 2022. As mentioned by Yusri earlier, we saw marginal improvement in the global GDP and PMI numbers. While product prices were assessed about 5% higher quarter-on-quarter, our plant utilization rate was lower. We saw a record 8% lower production volume and 2% lower sales volume. With lower sales volume, segment revenue was 3% lower at MYR 3.4 billion, compared to MYR 3.5 billion in fourth quarter of 2022. EBITDA for the segment declined 20% on lower sales of aromatics products and ethane-related products, as well as the pre-operating costs of a joint operation company. Our EBITDA margin fell to 9%. Nonetheless, the PAT was higher at MYR 170 million, compared to MYR 47 million in the preceding quarter, on lower unrealized Forex loss, on revaluation of loans to a joint operating company, and higher share of profit from our joint ventures and associated companies, mainly from BPC, due to higher spread of acrylic acid product, as well as higher sales volume. Let's move to our Fertilizer and Methanol segment on page 4 of the deck. Contrary to the O&D segment, the F&M segment saw marked decrease in product prices, particularly urea and ammonia. For example, the urea prices declined as much as 35% quarter-on-quarter, while ammonia fell 25% against Q4 2022, on a weaker market and global oversupply market. Our methanol products saw a marginal 3% improvement following methanol to olefins related demand, following the reopening of China and new biodiesel mandate from Indonesia, that supported regional methanol prices. The production and sales volume for the segment was lower, in line with lower plant utilization of 97% against 100% in the preceding quarter. Revenue for the segment decreased 32% to MYR 2.4 billion. EBITDA declined 45% to MYR 782 million, mainly on lower product spread and lower sales volume. The EBITDA margin was recorded at 33%. The PAT for the segment declined 50% quarter-on-quarter to MYR 533 million. Moving on to our Specialty segment on page five of the deck. In quarter one of 2023, we saw Specialty segment recorded higher revenue and EBITDA, attributed to the modest recovery in the product demand for segments, as restocking activities have started in some markets, such as paints and coating and transportation, as compared to previous quarter. However, higher energy costs and raw material costs have continued to erode the margins, making our European production less competitive vis-a-vis export from other regions, especially China. There were also some customer compromising on quality and going cheaper products, such as the ones from the Chinese supplier, leading to price competition in the intermediates product. The sales volume and product mix remained subdued in quarter one 2023, due to lower end market demands and sluggish recovery, especially in the building and construction end markets, against the high inflationary environment. Nonetheless, we saw some uptick in the transportation market, where products sold to aviation and transformation oil have been positively impacted in terms of demand. For the animal nutrition market segment, we saw a similar situation, where higher feedstock costs and lower customer profitability led to lower sales to customer. All in all, we saw Specialty segment did better quarter-on-quarter basis. Let's move to cash flow on page 6. Basically, the net cash used in investing activities mainly comprise of the purchase of property, plant, and equipment for various projects at PIC, Pengerang Integrated Complex, as well as in our melamine project in Gurun, Kedah. The net cash used in financing activities, largely due to second interim dividend of MYR 1.28 billion, which was paid in March 2023. Looking at balance sheet on page 7, our total assets were slightly lower by MYR 274 million to MYR 55.2 billion, mainly due to lower cash and cash equivalent, due to payment of the second interim dividend, purchase of the PPE, but partially offsetted by the cash generated from operation at MYR 1.1 billion. We also recorded a lower trade and other receivables by MYR 90 million, at MYR 3.5 billion, in line with lower revenue. Our total equity was lower by MYR 637 million, at MYR 39.1 billion, mainly attributable to the second interim dividend, partially offsetted by the profit generated during the period, and Forex translation reserve, due to the weakening of ringgit against US dollar. That's all for the financial breakdown. I'm handing back the session to Encik Yusri to cover the financial sustainability, as well as the way forward. Thank you, Azli. Let's look at page 8. I've covered the economic pillar at length earlier, supported by Azli in terms of detail. Let's go straight to the environmental pillar in the middle. We look at energy efficiency, you know, as a continuous improvement that we seek to achieve. Energy efficiency projects implemented at our facilities such as flaring and venting minimization and fuel optimization, brought down our energy intensity and greenhouse gas emissions year-on-year. We have also realized our greenhouse gas reduction at about 24,000 tons of equal CO₂ equivalent at the end of March, contributed by the same initiative that I mentioned earlier. We have also realized our first reduction through green energy tariff by our provider, Tenaga Nasional Berhad. This is a program introduced by Tenaga Nasional Berhad to enable customers like us to reduce their carbon footprint in electricity consumption by purchasing a low carbon electricity supply from them. This has actually, for us, started to contribute on our equivalent CO₂ reduction. These indicators are keeping us on track to realize our net zero carbon emissions aspiration. On the right side column, our social outreach program will start, actually, by the second quarter of this year, our target this year is to reach more than 320,000 people by year-end, through our various outreach programs, education and environment awareness related programs. To date, all social indicators and plans are on track against what we pledged as our 2023 target. Moving on to page 9. Let's quickly look at our short-term market outlook. First, our Olefins and Derivatives segment. We view that due to the slower than expected rebound in China's recovery, the Olefins and Derivatives segment is expected to soften as customers remain cautious, with the demand lagging behind supply, stemming from start up of new chemical capacities in China. Ethylene price is forecasted to soften on ample supply, with plants returning from turnaround, coupled with new capacity start up in China and India. For MEG, the price is forecasted to soften on ample supply and dampen downstream demand, despite prolonged plant shutdown in China due to limited appetite for polyester, resulting mainly on squeeze margin. Polyethylene price is expected to soften again on ample supply amid subdued demand post the recent festive seasons, that is the Eid and the China Labor Day in May, and also contributed by new China capacity start up expected in June. For the Fertilizers and Methanol segment, in the middle, urea prices are expected to be supported by the start of planting season in Southeast Asia, again, amidst balanced supply in the region, following some plant maintenance and turnaround shutdowns. In contrast, ammonia prices are expected to soften in view of oversupply, with the return of two Middle Eastern plants, push their turnaround amidst weaker downstream demand due to persistent high production costs for downstream caprolactam and acrylonitrile. Methanol price is anticipated to be firm, mainly due to tight supply with some plant maintenance in Southeast Asia. Demand for MTBE and biodiesel are expected to improve due to peak driving season in the second quarter. On the far right column, the performance of our Specialty segment will rely on the improvement of the end market demand that tracks the macroeconomic environment and effective feedstock management, especially in the European region, making this segment particularly vulnerable. Restocking activities are currently underway, indicating a modest demand recovery. However, the prevailing global inflationary environment and the slowdown in sectors such as construction, continue to present challenges for us. One of the X factor is the uncertainty of China's recovery and its impact on supply chain. As one of the largest specialty chemicals market in the world, China plays a significant role in affecting the demand of the specialty chemical. All in, the outlook remains challenging, with uncertainty and volatility playing in the midst of concern. We will continue to closely observe market dynamics, paying particular attention to factors such as feedstock prices, geopolitical tension, and the progress of China's recovery, to ensure our business is uninterrupted. Ladies and gentlemen, go to page 10. I have my last slide before you. 2023 has been a challenge from the start. The business environment and outlook remains volatile as headwinds continue to challenge the sector. We will continue to implement our growth strategy as planned and work towards ensuring that our new projects come on stream in time to capitalize, hopefully, the upswing in the market. Our joint venture projects, the NPG plant in Pengerang and the Specialty siloxanes plant in Kertih, remain on track to come on stream in the second half of this year. The Pengerang Petrochemical Complex test run is ongoing, though taking a bit longer than we anticipated. The targeted commercial operation has been moved to the fourth quarter of this year. As most of you are already aware, the Pengerang Petrochemical Complex is a liquid-based operation. It's a naphtha-based operation. Given the current market conditions, margins are challenging. This has strengthened our drive to pursue growth and expansion in the derivatives and specialty chemical space. Our team has been actively exploring and studying expansions, going further down our value chain, as well as potential M&As to complement our new specialty segment, to ensure that our business remains relevant and profitable. Our manufacturing operations this year is lighter in terms of planned turnarounds or TA, but busy with a number of smaller pit stops throughout the year. Nonetheless, we will focus on ensuring optimal plant reliability and utilization amidst these smaller shutdowns, while always adhering to our HSE culture. This is all that I have for today. Thank you very much. Let's open for the Q&A. Thank you, management. Certainly. We will now begin the question and answer session. To ask questions on the phone, kindly press star one one and wait for your name to be announced. If you'd like to cancel a request, you can also press star one one. Once again, to ask question, please press star one one. There'll be a short silence while questions are being collected. Thank you for your patience. One moment for the first question. First question comes from the line of Ahmad Maghfur Usman from Nomura. Please go ahead. Hi. Good evening. Can you hear me? Yes, Ahmad, we can hear you. Yes. Great. Just one question. For Perstorp, right, are there any indications of a possibility of an impairment, on the consideration that, I don't know, whether you've made the purchase at its peak and given the dire outlook in the near term? Okay. Thank you for the question, Ahmad. As of now, we do every month and every quarter, assessment on impairment of investment, impairment of assets, not just Perstorp. Since you asked questions about Perstorp, we have assessed the purchase price compared to our, you know, forward curve, as well as our discounted cash flow moving forward. As of now, we do not see any indication of impairment because our investment in Perstorp for long run, and we do see potential synergies moving forward. Which we have yet to... We did not take into account during the acquisition. Based on that, we believe there is no indication of impairment for our investment in Perstorp at the moment. Okay. All right. I mean, following on from that, answer, Yeah. Assuming this kind of quarter persists over the next four quarters for full strength, one full year, would you think there's still been impairment or still unlikely as well? We need to assess that, Ahmad, quarter by quarter, which will run that assessment internally, run by our board audit committee as well as our component auditor. We will, if there's any indication of impairment and depending on where the market is, we will do so. As you also witness, when you compare quarter one and quarter four last year, there's improvement, in term of sales volume, in terms of contribution margin, and you see the improvement in EBITDA, right? We believe Perstorp, currently in quarter one, performing in line with their peers. I know that generates a total conglomerate specialty EBITDA margin of 5%. All right. Okay. Got it. Okay. Thanks. Cheers. Thank you, Ahmad. Thank you for the questions. As a reminder, to ask question, please press star 11 and wait for your name to be announced. One moment for the next question. Next question is from the line of Sumedh Samant from J.P. Morgan. Please go ahead. Hi. Thank you for the presentation. I want to better understand the O&D segment EBITDA margin. I notice that it has come down, and also there was a lower sales volume of polymers. Just want to understand better what happened there, and because our understanding is that the prices went up, the demand was also generally better. Again, not as good as one would have expected, but still better. Want to understand that. That's my first question. My second question is on your gas price renegotiations on the cracker. Is there any progress or update that you can share with us? Thank you. Thank you, Sumedh. Let me answer the first one. I think we if you look at page 3, that covers and explain the O&D segment. I assume you're referring comparing our EBITDA margin for Q1 2023 against Q4 2022. I think you also see that the sales volume was lower because we had pit stop at PC Aromatics and then at PC LDPE. Despite the sales vol, sorry, the price for O&D are slightly higher compared to Q4 last year. That being the case, and then there's also pre-operating costs from joint operation company. This is basically Pengerang Petrochemical Company, because in the early days of starting up, we cannot capitalize all these pre-operating costs in the balance sheet, because of the requirement of the accounting standards, that any proceeds from pre-operating needs to be charged to the income statement, and we have done so. This is basically a reflection of the pre-operating costs of PPC into our O&D segment. I hope I answered your first question, Sumedh. Yes. Thanks. Okay. With regards to the second question, I think the negotiation with PETRONAS is still ongoing. You know, the gas, the C2 and C3 contract will expire in July, early July. We hope to make a proper announcement, if required, once the negotiation has been concluded with PETRONAS. I think, you see here, Sumedh, I think, we are, we believe on track. We will be making an announcement by the time the contract expires. Currently, it's too early for us to make any announcement. Okay, noted. Thank you. Thank you, Sumedh. Thank you for the question. Next question comes from the line of Sean Lim from RHB. Please proceed. Hello. Hi, thank you very much for the call. I have two questions, basically. Can I check on what is the expectation for plant utilization for Pengerang in 2023? You mentioned about the pre-operation costs incurred in the first quarter. Hello? Huh? You are breaking. Hello. You're breaking up. Can you say that again, the question? We cannot hear you very well. Okay. Yeah, I'm gonna say it this lower. What is the prediction for plant utilization for Pengerang in 2023? Pengerang plant utilization. For Pengerang plant utilization. All right. Okay, as we've been guiding the market, what you call this? The complex in Pengerang is under initial operation, is starting up. We are targeting, hopefully, to complete all the performance test run by July, August. After that, we would then go to, again, what we call of credibility reliability test. I would take, I were to annualize our plan to a year, we expect on average, maybe it's 40% range this year. 40%? Yep. Okay. How much was the start-up loss incurred in the first quarter, and is it sustainable? You're referring to the pre-operating costs, Sean? Yes. Yeah, you're right. I think for the pre-operating costs for PPC, that goes up into our O&D. It basically makes up of a negative EBITDA of around MYR 100 million. MYR 100 million. Is this the depreciation charges for Pengerang plant? Yes. That's basically MYR 100 million negative EBITDA, contributed from Pengerang Petrochemical Company, as a result of the pre-operating cost. No, as mentioned earlier, any pre-operating revenue and associated costs, pre-operating, we need to charge straight away to the income statement because of the new accounting standard. That is basically a reflection of the pre-operating costs of PPC into our O&D segment. Okay. Just to be clear, Sean, this does not include a depreciation because we only start to depreciate once the plant achieve COD. Commercial operation. Commercial operation. Currently, we're contemplating in quarter four this year. Okay. Okay. If I were to assume this cost will be repetitive, it will be repeating in the second quarter. Generally, the cost will ramp up in the second half as you the plan, right, more progressively. It should be offset by the revenue that you generated by then? Yeah, yeah. At least I can give you that guidance, Sean. Okay. Okay, okay. Okay. Any changes to your plant turnaround plans this year? No. There will be 2 plant turnaround, second half of this year. Quarter 3, there will be PC Ammonia in Kertih, and Quarter 4 will be PC MTBE for the MTBE plant in Gebeng. That plan has not, so far is still in place. Okay, overall, plant utilization will be higher, partly? Yes. Okay. On the annualized basis, Sean, we anticipate our total PU will be around above 90%, as on our normal internal target. Okay. Okay. All right, I think that's all for me. Thank you very much. Thank you, Sean. The questions. Once again, to ask question, please press star one. As a reminder, to ask question, please press star one. As a reminder, to ask a question, you may press star one, and wait for a name to be announced. Thank you. One moment for our follow-up question. We have the questions from the line of Sumedh Samant from JP Morgan again. Please go ahead. Hi. Thanks again. My other question is on actually specialty chemicals. What we have noticed is that the EBITDA remains reasonably weak yet, and even the costs have been quite high. The AGN, they have increased quite a bit. Have there been any plans in place to bring down the costs and improve efficiencies? Also, any comments on potential synergies that you may be looking at since we are past two quarters in Perstorp? Thank you so much. Thanks, Sumedh. Yes, obviously, we are always looking at our operational business to always try to optimize the cost and also to improve the margin. Specifically for specialty chemicals, because of a lot of the manufacturing are based in Europe, we are looking particularly at the energy prices. We are also looking at is there any synergy within the group, especially on the feedstock side. We're trying to unlock those opportunities to ensure that we are going to improve the efficiency, as you said, of our operations there. Market remains as market, as we have guided earlier, we are hopeful we see some improvement in demand of volume, but we're seeing a very slow pickup in prices. We may be able to recover a bit on volume. We are still very, very cautious on price, hence the focus is really to see what we can do on the cost side to ensure that we improve that EBITDA margin that you saw in our quarter one. Yeah. I think I also want to add, if you look at page 10 of the deck, when PCG mentioned about, you know, post-merger integration plan, or PMI, we call it, as well as the value creation synergies between PCG and Perstorp, that is ongoing. We have a dedicated team of PMI in Perstorp, looking at potential synergies. As you may appreciate, some of these potential synergies may not be occurring or be realized as soon as possible. It will take time, but we will look at some low-hanging fruits that we can adopt and implement much faster compared to other, the bigger synergies that we anticipate in the long run. I hope that answers your question, Sumedh. Yeah, that's helpful. Just as a follow-up, may I check to the long-term average EBITDA margin of Perstorp, which is around, say, mid-single, mid-double digits. Where is the low margin coming from? I mean, is it the ASPs, or is it the volumes, or is it the cost? That's one part. The second part of this question is, where do you see EBITDA margins coming in this particular year? When do you see them going back to sort of the normalized margins of those mid-double digits? Thank you. If you look at... I think we are confident the double-digit EBITDA margin would return. If we look at, we analyze where we are today, again, volume and price are very, were very soft, and that is what do you call this? Exacerbated by the high cost that we saw in European operation, particularly energy. Energy prices, more than 20 times, 10, 15-20 times increase because of the gas price there. Also we are seeing some challenges in also raw materials on the European side. Those are the two elements that we are focusing on improving and also on trying to leverage on synergies with what we have within PCG, so that we can improve specialties operation, especially in Europe. Got it. Can I confirm that you said that, you're confident to go back to sort of double-digit margins by within this year? Is that what you said? We are hopeful for that. We are hopeful for that. We saw, for example, energy prices, especially fuel gas in Europe, has dropped to a level that we believe is manageable. We are hopeful that price of product would then pick up as more demand would come in. Got it. May I have one last thing? May I check how much is the lag between the energy cost and the sort of, you know, cost that Perstorp realizes? Because as we noticed, the net gas prices in Europe are like almost as similar to prior pre-war levels or even lower than that. Just want to understand or how long is the lag usually for the realized pricing? Thanks. Andrew. I think Sumedh, on average, we saw like around three months lag, in terms of the impact of a price to our, you know, bottom line. That's basically what you see mentioned. Although we see the gas prices are declining, the impact can only be realized after that. three months could be a realistic assumption moving forward. Okay, that's helpful. Thank you. Thank you for the question. Thank you. One moment for the next question. Next up, we have the line from Raymond Yap, from CGS-CIMB Securities. Please go ahead. Hi, good evening, everyone. Yeah, thank you so much for the call. Okay, the question I have is on the pre-operating costs from the start of Pengerang. Just now, it was mentioned that the cost was MYR 100 million. Should we expect similar costs to recur in the second and third quarter? My short answer to that, Raymond, is yes. As PPC, Pengerang Petrochemical Company ramps up in term of production to meet the, you know, contractual obligation of certain PU and production rate, we expect the company to incur negative EBITDA towards the ramp up. Okay. The cost would likely recur in the second and third quarter. Yes OMD profits will probably be a bit suppressed because of this element, right? Correct. Yeah. Yes, Raymond. Okay ... also, depending on the market spread, at the point of time, in quarter two and quarter three as well. Okay. Sure. When I'm looking at the F&M side, if I'm looking at the presentation slides, the F&M plant utilization was lower than the fourth quarter. Fourth quarter was over 100%, and then the first quarter was 97%. I think that's. There's a description in the presentation slides about some external disruption. Could I just double clarify what that is? That is basically maintenance works. Okay. Maintenance work that we need to shut down the plants on a short-term basis. Right. Yeah ... maintenance. Is this already over and done with? Should we expect any- Yes ... further disruption in the... Okay. Yeah. Okay. Correct. Also because urea prices really only started to drop in March, and that had a negative impact on the F&M revenues and profits. Given that the urea prices will remain low for the second quarter so far, and since the lower urea prices only had a one-month impact on the first quarter, is it likely, in your opinion, that the second quarter F&M profitability will be even lower than what we have seen so far in the first quarter? Yes. I think just to correct you, Raymond, I'm sure you're aware of this, the urea prices has been declining since quarter one last year, from a record of $750 per ton to now around $370 on average, yeah, quarter one. Mm-hmm ... 2023, to around $370 per ton. You know what, Yusri mentioned earlier, I think in terms of outlook, we saw a slight increase in demand because of planting season coming up, not only in South Asia, but as well as in India, and Australia. We are hopeful with regards to the pricing for urea in the short term. Okay, sure. One final question on the specialty side. If I'm looking at the first quarter compared to the immediately preceding fourth quarter, EBITDA was a positive MYR 7 million in the fourth quarter, and in the first quarter, it rose to MYR 88 million, so that's a MYR 81 million increase. If I'm looking at the profit after tax, it went from -MYR 163 million to -MYR 29 million, so that's a positive change of MYR 134 million. I'm just trying to understand, why is it that EBITDA went up by MYR 81 million, but profit after tax went up by MYR 134 million? I think Okay, first of all, is the higher EBITDA. If you're referring to the bottom line, right? Improvement in EBITDA, but also with regards to Forex as well. Okay. There was a Forex gain then in the first quarter for specialties? Yeah. It's, I think last quarter four was a Forex loss, a huge Forex loss on revision of loss. For quarter one, it's slightly lower than that. Lower loss. Okay. Okay. This is a shareholder loan denominated in euros, is it? Correct. There's a shareholder's loan to fund the acquisition that we provided to our intermediate holding company in BV Okay, thank you. Thank you, Raymond. Thank you for the question. Next question comes from the line of Mayank Maheshwari from Morgan Stanley. Please go ahead. Yeah. Thank you for the call, sir. A couple of questions from my end. First, just to understand on Pengerang, what is the current level of test run utilization rates that you are kind of doing, and what is the plan in terms of ramp up into the fourth quarter? Currently for chemicals, even when we were doing test run, the utilization rate goes to 100%. But we were doing it plant by plant. We have 7 plants. We have done 4, basically, and I think we are left with 3 more. But typically, after the test run, now we will bring down the plant to maybe a slightly lower level to operate, or even if we do find something, then we bring it down to do some whatever maintenance that is needed in preparation for our longer run later, targeted by quarter four this year. Currently, if I were, again, if I were to look at the chemicals plant, it's running on average about 50%. Got it. Is it fair to say that at 100%, you were able to... Like, I'm looking at it from the $100 million EBITDA number that you kind of stated as a loss. Will that number incrementally rise because utilization rates come down and the sales volume comes off? Or is it fair to say that most of the 100% utilization rate number, but was not translated into sales? I think, Mayank, maybe, I would expect those numbers will be slightly higher in quarter two and quarter three. Again, it will depends on the margin at a particular point of time. If margin continue to be where it was in quarter one, we will expect those negative EBITDA to be slightly higher compared to quarter one, as the ramp-up increases. Yeah. Yeah. If the margin stays as is, as we ramp up, you expect to see a higher loss. We are. As we ramp up, we are hoping, you know, again, the market will return. Out of the 7 plants, 4 have basically got into the commissioning stage, but 3 will go into the commissioning stage, so there could be pre-operating expenses related with that as well, correct, which will come in, into your- Right. losses. Is that a fair statement? No, even the 4 that has already been performance tested, is still considered under pre-operating stage until we declare commercial operation. We are going to declare commercial operation as a site, rather than, individual, plant. Okay. Okay, that's clear. The second question was more related to now the interest expense. I think you clarified on the depreciation side, that comes in only later. On the interest expenses, the same treatment like depreciation, or is there something that you are still putting in under pre-operative expenses on the interest expense? As interest during construction and during pre-operating, it will be capitalized, Mayank, and that will be capitalized until COD. Got it. How big is that amount right now? How much is the characterization interest cost for the first quarter? On an annualized basis, it will be around MYR 240 million, on annualized basis. Got it. Okay. That's clear. The other question was related to the, on the specialty side. I think you talked about this entire three-month lag in terms of the gas price adjustment. Is it fair to say you were basically feeding into the high-cost gas inventory, I suppose more closer to that $20 mark for the first quarter, and it should suddenly drop in the current quarter to close to around that $11-$12 mark? Can you repeat that again, Mayank, in term of? So- catch the amount you mentioned just now. I was basically looking at, because average pricing till December, I think for the December quarter, which will feed in the 1st quarter with a 3-month lag effect on the gas cost. That, I think, was closer to the $20 mark in Europe. That right now is running closer to the, well, actually, average is $11, but it's running below $10 now. The point is, like, you will see this sudden drop in cost, which should show up in the 2nd quarter, correct? Yes. Yes. Okay. Yes. There will be no issues related to pass-through costs to certain, because some of these costs are passed through in certain contracts, some are not. I was just trying to assess of how much of that will show up in the numbers and how much will be passed through to the consumers. Yeah, I mean, I cannot give you a guide, specific guidance on the per-percentage, how much we can pass on, because that would depends on, number 1, the product, and number 2, the contract that we have with the customers, on a negotiated basis. We can only do so upon conclusion of quarter 2, which we can highlight how much of those that we can pass on. Okay, that's fair. Just the last thing I think on this question, because gas cost and energy cost, as you highlighted, is a very important cost in that specialty operations. If you kind of look at your total COGS, how much is right now in the first quarter, the gas cost be? On the PCG group basis, Mayank, or it's just per stock? No, only on the specialty, on the specialty side only. Okay, all right. On the specialty, I think in terms of, feedstock, it would be around, 60%, 50%-60%. Okay. Uh, basically- That's material. for gas. Yeah. Got it. Okay, so that's clear. Fix it. I think that's all the questions I had. Thank you. Thank you, Mayank. Thank you for the question. One moment for the next questions. Once again, we have the follow-up questions from Sumedh Samant, from JP Morgan. Please go ahead. Sorry, I didn't have any questions. Maybe there was an issue. Sorry. Certainly. Thank you. One moment for next questions. Next up, we also have the follow-up questions from Raymond Yap, from CGS-CIMB Securities. Please go ahead. Hi, Azli. I just wanted to double-check on the pre-operating expenses that were charged in the O&D division. Were there any of such expenses last year? No, Raymond, because last year we're yet to ramp up. That particular pre-operating revenue and associated pre-operating cost, I would say in quarter four was very minimal. Mm. seeing a higher number in quarter one as the plan ramps up. As you know, last quarter. Sorry, quarter four, there's an incident at Pengerang that kind of delays the start-up. Now that the rectification has been done and the pet chem plants are resuming their start-up, we start seeing this pre-operating costs emerging. That's why we it's, you know, higher than the quarter four. Azli, you know, when you are running the pre-op, you know, ramp up, you do actually produce some product which you can sell in the market. Correct. Is that not enough to offset the pre-operating costs? No. That basically, number 1, the cost associated with it will be both variable and fixed costs. We need to take into account as well. Until and unless the plan in total achieve a stable production rate, we believe around 70%, then such variable costs and fixed costs can be offset with the revenue. Again, depending on the margin for the product that we are producing. This MYR 100 million is a gross cost, right? Has it been offset by the selling revenues from the products that are coming out during the ramp up phase? Already been offset. This is the net, pre-operating cost. Oh, I see. Yeah. Wow! Okay. Wow, it's quite heavy, I must say, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Anyway, yeah, thanks. Thank you for the questions. With that, allow me to hand the call back to Alia for closing remarks. Thank you, Desmond. Okay, we have come to the end of the presentation and the briefing. Thank you all for your participation today. Do reach out to us should you have any follow-up questions, and look forward to receiving your reports once published. Thank you, everyone. Good evening. That does conclude today's conference call. Thank you for your participation. You may now disconnect your lines. Thank you.