Good morning, good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the Besi quarterly conference call and audio webcast to discuss the company's 2021 first quarter results. You can log in to the audio webcast via Besi's website, www.besi.com. Joining us today are Mr. Richard Blickman, Chief Executive Officer, and Miss Hedwig van Kerckhoven, Senior Vice President, Finance. At this time, all participants are in listen-only mode. Later, we will conduct a question and answer session, and instruction will follow at that time. As a reminder, ladies and gentlemen, this conference is being recorded and cannot be reproduced in whole or in part without written permission from the company. I would now like to turn the call over to Mr. Richard Blickman. Go ahead, please, sir. Thank you. Thank you all for joining us today. We will begin by making a few comments in connection with the press release we issued earlier today, and then take your questions. I would like to remind you that some of the comments made during this call and some of the answers in response to your questions by management may contain forward-looking statements. Such statements may involve uncertainties and risks as described in the earnings release and other reports filed with the AFM. For today's call, we'd like to review the key highlights for the first quarter ended March 31st this year, and also update you on the market, our strategy, and outlook. First, some overall thoughts on the first quarter. Besi first quarter 2021 results highlighted the strength and resilience of our business as we scale production to meet strong demand for our advanced packaging equipment in a challenging environment. Revenue increased by 30.5% versus Q4 last year, and by 56.8% versus the first quarter 2020, due to primarily a new smartphone cycle featuring enhanced 5G features and functionality, as well as a recovery in sales for automotive applications. Revenue was at the lower end of guidance as some shipments scheduled for the first quarter were delivered in the early part of the second quarter due to certain supply chain and logistics constraints. The industry upturn, which started in the fourth quarter last year, accelerated in the first quarter. Orders reached a record of EUR 327.1 million, an increase of EUR 208.5 million or 175.8% versus the first quarter last year, and EUR 169.8 million or 107.9% versus the EUR 157.3 million recorded in the fourth quarter last year. For the six-month period ending March 31st, orders were EUR 484.4 million, more than double the comparable six-month period comprising Q4 2019 and the first quarter 2020. Order strength in the first quarter 2021 reflected a surge in demand across all Besi product groups and end-user markets, with particular strength in demand for high-end smartphones. In addition, there was significant order growth for automotive applications versus the fourth quarter last year, and increased demand for high-end logic devices used in high-performance computing applications such as artificial intelligence and data centers. Bookings during the quarter also included initial orders for Besi's hybrid bonding systems from industry-leading customers. Net income for that quarter was EUR 37.6 million, an increase of EUR 23.7 million or 117.5% versus the first quarter last year. Adjusted to exclude deferred tax benefits recognized in the fourth quarter and share-based compensation expense, net income reached EUR 47.4 million in the first quarter, an increase of 35.8% versus Q4 2020 and 140.6% versus the first quarter of last year. On such basis, net margins grew to 33.1% in the first quarter of this year versus 31.8% in the fourth quarter of last year and 21.6% in the first quarter of 2020. Strong profit growth was due primarily to significantly higher revenue levels, combined with disciplined overhead management, which has limited baseline operating expenses to a narrow range of between approximately EUR 23 million and EUR 26 million in each of the past 11 quarters. Further baseline operating expenses as a percentage of revenue declined from 27.8% in the first quarter 2020 to 18.2% in the first quarter 2021, highlighting the significant operating leverage in our business model. Upward gross margin development in the first quarter 2021 was limited by adverse Forex influences from a weaker dollar versus the euro and additional cost incurred to rapidly scale production capacity. Our liquidity position continued to expand in the first quarter, with cash and deposits of a total of EUR 605 million, growing 41.7% versus the first quarter of last year, despite a working capital investment of EUR 35.6 million necessary to finance the rapid expansion of our order book. Similarly, net cash of EUR 216.2 million increased by 45.8% versus the first quarter of last year. Favorable net cash development in the first quarter of 2021 was also positively influenced by the conversion of 30.3 million principal amount of Besi convertible bonds due 2023. An additional EUR 49.1 million were converted in April, resulting in a principal balance outstanding of EUR 47.6 million. As such, Besi shares outstanding have increased from 72.9 million on December 31st, 2020, to 75.5 million on April 30, 2021. Next, I'd like to speak a little bit about the current market environment and our strategy. The semiconductor equipment industry continues its strong upward growth trajectory, as can be seen by the most recent via the VLSI Climate Index. Recent announcements of CapEx expansion plans by the leading industry players, as well as capacity constraints by equipment companies, could extend the duration of the current upturn. Given continued market strength, SEMI recently revised its 2021 assembly equipment forecast upwards to 31% growth from 20% last quarter. In addition, they anticipate the assembly market to grow 49% between 2020 and 2022, to reach an aggregate of $5.2 billion, which is significantly above prior peaks of approximately $4 billion. The principal growth drivers include increased usage of artificial intelligence and 5G networks, data center expansions, and chip-scale packaging. At present, our strategic priorities focus primarily on ramping production to meet customer delivery dates and expanding development activities for basic wafer level assembly efforts. The industry faces unique production challenges currently as demand accelerates and supply chains are adversely affected by shortages of a variety of essential and non-essential components, and transportation and logistics issues amidst the ongoing global pandemic. We have navigated these challenges well via our dual sourcing strategy and the inventory stocking of critical parts in order to minimize potential bottlenecks. In addition, we successfully added 264 temporary Asian production personnel between year-end and the end of the first quarter to help meet the order surge. Similarly, we are expanding development activities for both our hybrid bonding efforts with Applied Materials and our below 10 nanometer advanced packaging portfolio as customers seek to build leading-edge capacity for next-generation applications. We are developing plans to expand our U.S. and Taiwanese development and service footprint in connection with the CapEx expansion plans announced by a number of our customers. A few words about the second quarter guidance. For Q2 2021, we estimate that revenue will increase by 30%-40% versus the first quarter of this year, with gross margin levels between 58% and 60%. Operating expenses are anticipated to decrease by approximately 0%-5% versus the EUR 34.9 million realized in the first quarter. Industry analysts continue their positive outlook for assembly equipment sales in 2021, based on the recently announced CapEx plans of leading industry customers. Basic incoming order trend to date in Q2 remains favorable, including incremental orders for hybrid bonding systems, which supports a constructive outlook for this emerging process technology. That ends my prepared remarks. I would like to open a call for some questions. Over to you. Thank you, sir. Ladies and gentlemen, for any question or remarks, you can press star one on your telephone. Please go ahead. The first question is from Mr. Peter Olofsen, Kepler Cheuvreux. Go ahead, please, sir. Yes, good afternoon. I have several related questions around bookings. First, could you give some indications of what your lead times currently are? Secondly, could you provide some color on the order intake that you're seeing so far in Q2? You did comment on this last call. Hopefully you will be able to provide some color this time as well. Lastly, as it seems that your clients might be ordering a bit further out than what they would usually do, what does that mean for your current visibility for the second half of the year? I have a follow-up. Thanks for your questions. The first is lead times. If you simply look at our order intake and also bear in mind our revenue model of EUR 800 million divided by four is EUR 200 million a quarter, that simply explains how we are ramping from levels below EUR 100 million in Q3 to EUR 109 million in Q4, and in Q1, EUR 143 million. If you take 30%-40% guidance for Q2, that leads you to where we are heading. With the order intake, Q4 and Q1, and also the comment about the month of April, certainly our lead times are expanding. That gives us some more visibility like we usually have, which is about one quarter, and that is similar to what the industry expects for 2021, and growth trend, which we have also highlighted in the press release. Clearly that is as much in detail as we can provide. If you look historically, there is clearly a seasonal pattern during the year where you have a very strong Q2, and then usually in the second half, a bit of a seasonal slowdown. Can you already comment on that or is that still too early? Well, again, simply add the order intake Q4, Q1, and a positive continuation in the first months of the quarter, and the revenue per quarter as just highlighted, and then the guidance for Q2. You don't need to be a mathematician to calculate that. Hello? Sorry. Yeah. To calculate that this simply also has a consequence already for the revenue in Q3. How much things will further continue is always hard to forecast. As I mentioned earlier, and in the press release, the independent analyst views remain still very positive. Okay. That's helpful. Maybe on the component shortages. We hear some companies talking about ongoing issues in Q2, but then expecting an improvement in the second half of the year. Would you share that view? Any thoughts on that? Well, you can be sure that everyone is increasing capacity. At some point, certain shortages must be resolved. At the same time, you don't know how much double ordering. Let me do one step back. What is the reason for these shortages? One of the reason, well, there are two which I can mention. Number one is automotive last year was at very low levels, never seen before. There's a clear acceleration, and you could say catch-up of production in the automotive sector. That's a strong demand. At the same time, medical. Medical, medical has priority, and rightfully so. All medical equipment which is required to fight this pandemic, the components used for that have simply priority. That is causing a certain disruption, or you could simply say shortages in certain components. Also, those capacities are expanded. Hopefully, at some time, the medical equipment demand will stabilize. There are certain factors which may very well support the case that these shortages should be resolved in the second half of this year. At the same time, Besi has, since many years, dual sourcing strategies for many of our modules, components, all kinds of critical components, because we mentioned also in the past, we have six different cameras, to name an example. We're not stuck immediately, but there are some difficulties which we have resolved and which we are resolving further. Otherwise, we could not imagine to grow revenue again by 30%-40% this next quarter. You're very right, shortages is in the industry, broadly, an issue at this moment. At the same time, an issue is logistics, transportation. Not only the cost, but also timing is different than it was pre-COVID. What we faced, for instance, a set of machines to be shipped to customers and on a condition to be delivered on the dock, as opposed to shipment arriving on the 25th of March, that shipment only arrived on April 4, also due to import issues. Logistics, and this is one example, has also become more difficult. That should be sorted over time. Despite an excellent underlying growth and also an enormous order intake, there are some issues in supply chain and logistics which may be resolved in the second half of this year, but that's the current situation. Okay. My final question is, I saw in your press release that you mentioned expansion of your U.S. and Taiwanese development and service footprint. I was wondering whether that is going to have a material impact on your OpEx, and/or CapEx. Number one, we should be extremely happy because why are we setting that up? To support an enormous potential in new business. Number one, hybrid bonding in Taiwan, number two, hybrid bonding in the U.S., but also EMIB and other bonding processes simply require more on-site support to our key customers. It's revenue-driven. Revenue with good margins should also hopefully support our bottom line. That's the reason why we are doing that. It's mostly people that you are adding? Yes. Okay. People, software, hardware. Already we have support groups, but with the increasing business, and especially in the hybrid world, which we also mentioned, the orders which we received in Q1 and also in April, is a very positive development. Okay, that's helpful. Thanks a lot. Thanks, Peter. The next question is from Mr. Nigel van Putten from Kempen & Co. Go ahead, please, sir. Hi, good afternoon. I had a follow-up question about lead times expanding. I think last time in the fourth quarter, we discussed that, the environment was tough, it was difficult. You had sufficiently double-sourced. From what I'm hearing, that's still the case. You're now sort of hitting your capacity to basically produce. I think that's sort of a soft ceiling of about EUR 200 million per quarter. Has that sort of changed the mindset of your customers, and has that maybe led to additional orders, and has that strength now also continued into sort of the second quarter? That's my first question. Thanks. First of all, if we would not have an EUR 800 million revenue model in place, we would never have booked EUR 327 million in orders in one quarter, because customers first want to be certain that what they order, they get delivered. Number 2, major expansion programs are never delivered on one day. There's always a delivery schedule. The larger the expansion, the longer it takes because we are one element, and sometimes a few elements, in a total production line. The customer needs to prepare those production facilities, and he also has to organize all the other parts of his expansion. That's a longer process than a turnaround in a quarter. Number 2, the supply chain issues, and we also mentioned that end of February, have developed over the past four months in an accelerated fashion. The industry has ramped since December enormously, and at the same time, more supply chain issues appeared. Some we have been able to resolve simply through anticipating on the ramp already in September, October last year by increasing our inventories. Some others, simply because of capacity constraints at those suppliers, which we have resolved partly by second-sourcing, third-sourcing, qualifying other components, and that's in full swing. It's easy to imagine that if a whole industry all of a sudden ramps significantly, you will have more capacity issues facing more broadly. That picture has not changed since the end of February. It has even become more difficult and as a response to the earlier question, people do expect that because our suppliers are also ramping, increasing their capacities, that at some point the constraints should be more or less resolved. That's the picture in general. Thanks for- For us to reach the guided revenue for Q2 will be, again, an absolute record. We have never reached those levels. Yes. That's very true. You did prepare indeed, hence the EUR 800 million revenue model. Should I, from your comment about April order book development and extending lead time sort of infer that you'd expect the order book to come in higher than the revenue range you guided for in the second quarter? Is that sort of a logical way of thinking? Well, if you look at the momentum right now, it still is very strong. You can read that every day in all the comments. In all the comments, you can read that every day. This industry is always hard to read. The timing of an up cycle and the timing of simply digestion is hard to forecast. With our current run rate and our capacity increases, it certainly looks like a somewhat longer visibility than one quarter. That's very helpful. Thanks. My last question, as you are, like you said, in full swing, triple sourcing, et cetera, do you think you'd be able to ship more than EUR 200 million in revenue somewhere maybe third, fourth quarter, if that's needed by then, sort of with these processes you've put in play? Theoretically, yes. Practically, both questions so far, the supply chain issues everywhere are very, let's say, serious and in existence. Already reaching the levels we do is extremely positive. To reach beyond that, well, if things become more relaxed, we certainly are able to ship faster. Also logistics. Logistics in the world is pretty tough right now, and that has lengthened the delivery of machines to our customers. Booking aircraft delivery at the customer, there's some uncertainty. Ex Works, which is most of our conditions, is not so much hit by that, but that sometimes has an effect on customers not ready to receive orders. In every aspect, it's a wonderful challenge. With a positive underlying market demand and also a very broad order spectrum, much broader than in our last peak, 2017. Also, the enormous progress in hybrid bonding. Despite these issues, we are extremely positive. Yep. Got it. Thanks. I'll jump back in the queue. Thank you. The next question is from Mr. Charles Shi from UTAM. I'm sorry, Mr. Marc Hesselink from the ING. Go ahead, please, sir. Yes. Thank you. I was wondering on your comments on the capacity, and to expand it. Is this now the time to make a decision to structurally expand your capacity beyond the EUR 200 million for the medium term? Yes. The reason for that is very simple. In every generation, the high-end advanced packaging applications become more critical. In other words, the machines have to be addressing tighter specs. These most advanced tools, so with accuracies one micron and below, and remember for hybrids, they are around 125 nanometers. These machines are built in clean room conditions. That already takes up space in our current facilities. We've built clean room facilities timely in Austria last year, also in Besi APac, so ready to produce these machines. Our whole infrastructure, we have hired in Malaysia an additional factory of 2,500 square meters. We have expanded our footprint in China. Again, with the same explanation, we have to be able to demonstrate that we can do more revenue in the next cycle, whenever that comes. These investments are already on the way, as I mentioned, we started already with that last year. They are not big capital requirements for this year, next year. Okay, clear. Is there a revenue number that you have in mind? Well, let's first reach our first model. Of course, if you look at the demand for hybrid tools, Taiwan clearly has mentioned a model of 50 machines over the next two years, also in the U.S., similar numbers. Those machines are between EUR 2 million and EUR 2.5 million a piece. If you calculate that with a decent share of wallet, that already lifts your revenue above our current model. Anyway, one step at a time. Key is first to convince and demonstrate to customers that we have the best solutions and technology to progress, and that should bring further growth to our revenue model. Okay, clear. At the moment, it seems that there's two strong drivers, the cyclical driver and a secular driver. I understand that it's difficult to really take them apart, but how do you see that in the current stage? What is a catch-up from maybe under-investment of last year? What's the secular growth that came on top? Well, what hasn't been said yet is, in our view, this pandemic has accelerated the technology roadmaps for digital society by at least two years. Simply working from home, the whole internet shopping, everything which is, let's say, forced upon society, requires significantly higher demand of semiconductors. We have seen that translated into growth last year, significant expected growth for the industry this year, and some people even forecast until 2023. It's an acceleration of the developments of the digital society. Catch-up. Maybe the industry has under-invested. There are many theories over the past 10 years already. Industry has been very disciplined in managing capacity expansion. Also, one should remember that from a technology point of view, in the assembly equipment, the first major disruptions are now bound to happen. What we said in the total market for assembly equipment between EUR 3 billion and EUR 4 billion per year for the past 10 years, now it should grow because of the higher percentage of advanced packaging, also the first hybrid bonding tools, towards EUR 4.5 billion, and then to even above EUR 5 billion. A significant growth due to a technology next step. At the same time, we have a GDP which is expected to grow significantly. China, we haven't mentioned yet. China every year continues to invest strategically in expansion of capacity for assembly. We also benefit from that. It's a broader picture than just one driver. Okay, final then as a follow-up on that is, given the shortage that we see today for a lot of semiconductors, do you believe that some of the producers will build in some extra spare capacity for next cycles to cope with this in the future? I doubt it because, historically, this industry has always had overcapacity, you could say the boom and bust cycle. It was more disciplined in the past decades. Whether this is unique at this very moment. Well, there are many views. Our view is simply this industry remains conservative, and that is the Besi model. Yeah, there will be some extra capacity adds, which is wonderful. At the same time, you can expect an overcapacity as a consequence of that. Okay, clear. Thank you. The next question is from Mr. Charles Shi from Needham. Go ahead please, sir. Yeah. This is Charles Shi from Needham. Thanks for taking my question. Hi, Richard. I really want to ask first about your hybrid bonding forecast, because you mentioned about potentially 50 systems over the next two years from TSMC and a similar amount from Intel, and you are investing the footprint in both Taiwan and in the U.S. to support that. When I look at your Analyst Day presentation last year, it looks like the numbers you provided seems to be tracking closer to the high case you provided about a year ago. I wonder whether that is sort of driven by the acceleration or faster adoption than expected of hybrid bonding by Intel. Could you give any color on that? I have a follow-up on this hybrid bonding traction thing. Thanks. Thanks, Charles. Faster adoption, that is the name of the game. Since early last year, we have seen more broadly, not only in the U.S. and Taiwan, but the adoption of hybrid bonding also in Korea at major Korean customers, moving faster than you could say the expectation a year ago. Whether that continues is always the question in our industry. At this moment, that gives us significant opportunity with selling machines for early qualification of products. That should lead to mainstream applications. That requires multiple machines. Yes, a faster adoption. Got it. Quickly follow up on that. I think a quarter ago, you mentioned initial interest indicated by memory manufacturers. I don't know whether you are referring to the Korean customer of yours. I just wonder from technical perspective, the interest in application of hybrid bonding in memory, is that more on the DRAM side, something like the next generation high bandwidth memory, or is there something else I probably have missed? It is not only Korea, it's also the U.S. memory customer, it's a combination of certain chiplet designs, and at the same time, high-end DRAMs. It's hard to tell how much of this is development stage. Also there, the traction, the momentum, the pressure on us to, in the design center in Singapore, where we installed the machine in AMAT's advanced packaging lab, where we jointly offer process development to the industry. We gain more and more traction to co-develop those processes. Got it. Maybe my next question is a little bit follow up on one of the questions on the second versus half asked earlier. When I look at your historical trend in first quarter 2017, you saw a very similar thing like in first quarter this year, that your order rate more than doubled, but your second quarter revenue did not really double. Your second quarter to third quarter decline, which typically could be in the teens or even 20+%, was very small in 2017. I was wondering, should we think about your second quarter to third quarter could potentially be like a low to mid-single digit decline or even flat to up this year? Am I thinking in the right direction there? Well, that's a very good question. There are two answers. Number one is, of course, the continuation of the broad-based industry ramp. Number two is customers able to install the additional capacity. As I answered to an earlier question, you see some issues at customers. They all have to install these equipments. If you follow also other tools for the backend, which are sometimes in greater numbers, simply because their capacity is lower. The whole infrastructure in the industry also has to be ready to set up those additional capacities. That trend, if you follow ASE's last comments about their demands for capacity increases 2x-3x compared to their current capacities. If that is really the case, you should see that also fits into the next peak somewhere in 2023. We know this industry for a few years. I'm more of six to eight quarters up, and in an exceptional case, 10 quarters, we haven't seen that often. It's hard to tell. Who had expected this enormous ramp where we're currently all involved in? If you look again at our order run rate, Q4, you didn't mention that we had record also in Q4, which we never had those volumes, and a record in Q1. The ramp is very steep, and our capacity is clearly ramping. It's all physical machines. Also our supply chain with all the issues as explained. That's where we're currently working very hard to realize the capacity increases. We hear from other, more on the front-end equipment space, that their customers are out of ordinary, sharing the multi-year outlook with them already. We heard that from ASML, who publicly talked about that. I wonder whether your customers, maybe a slightly different customer base from your front-end peers, are sharing a multi-year outlook with you guys. Obviously, we can't really say those are any of the order commitments there, but what's the direction of color they are giving to you at this point? Well, in a similar way. You can add front-end capacity, but if you do not add interconnects, you can't sell those devices. In a similar way, we also see major capacity increase plans, new factories being built. TSMC built two new advanced packaging facilities in Taiwan. Also others are building, constructing new facilities, and those are always the best indicators. Got it. Maybe if I can ask the last question on your near-term strength in smartphones. I understand you have a strong position in iOS supply chain, but you also have expanded your presence with the Chinese Android-based supply chains. On the other hand, we don't really quite understand, in particular this year, the semiconductor content in smartphones is going to have a huge increase relative to last year, according to some of the data cited by Applied Materials just a few weeks ago. Can you just unpack a little bit why you are seeing such a strong smartphone strength in the first quarter, and help us better understand your demand out there? First of all, a new set of certain features, next generations, 5G camera modules, but also other components. A new suite of newly designed, more advanced features. Also on the wearable side, we've had for many years continued on wearables, whether it is smartwatches or earplugs. It's also a broad set of new generation ingredients of the next high-end smartphones. We'll see when these products are introduced in September, October, what it will mean. Okay. We'll definitely look forward to it. Thank you for answering my questions. Congrats on the strong momentum you are seeing out there. Congrats on the nice results. Thanks. Thank you, Charles. The next question is from Mr. Stephane Houri from ODDO BHF. Go ahead, please. Yes. Hello, good afternoon. Actually, a lot of questions have been asked already, so I would probably focus on the gross margin, which is pretty high as always, but rather in the low end because you have said that it was impacted by the US dollar and some supply chain constraints. Could you tell us what kind of evolution you see for the second half, if it will be more in the high end of the guidance that you usually give, the 58%-60%? Also a question on OpEx, as you have increased the hiring, I believe in Asia, can you give us some indications about the OpEx evolutions going forward and maybe your guidance for the year? Thank you. Excellent. Thank you, Stephan. Number one, gross margin. You mentioned two factors impacting gross margin, but it's more helpful to look at the total picture for gross margin. First of all, our margins range between, you could say, low 50% and into the 70s. The order mix is very important, determining the final margin for a quarter period. The first part of this industry ramp was very much driven by shortages, and you could say more general IC applications. The margins in those areas are typically in the 50% range. For the new applications, new devices, and new modules, the margins are always at the higher end of the spectrum. When that mix is more into those applications, then you will see higher gross margins. The range 58%-60% is a range which we have used for a long time and dependent upon the mix. Sometimes we're above 60%, like Q2 and Q3 last year because of the mix. As you also picked up the dollar and supply chain issues at this moment, that sort of, you could say, but slightly, not strongly, but not a positive effect, let me put it that way. At the same time, in the current environment, anyone can sell a machine, so pricing is not an issue. Even more so, if you can deliver faster, you can command certain premiums. That all has a positive effect on the margin. Going forward, depending upon the mix and depending upon other factors, the margin certainly could be at the higher end, and also the loading, and we're ramping our capacity some. Then you come to your second part, the increase in headcount is twofold to understand. Partly, the headcount is needed to build more machines, and the other part is to install more machines, so that's service-related. The first part, so the capacity-related, are in the gross margin cost. The installation service people are in the OpEx on the SG&A. With the enormous revenue ramp, the operating leverage remains significantly, even though OpEx, and we guided for this quarter somewhat flat or slightly down, is all related to capacity increase. If you look at our presentation, we add headcount for this increase in demand, mostly on a flexible basis. On top of our baseline OpEx between EUR 23 million and EUR 26 million, we have, for temporary production increases, additional costs, but that is related to certain specific programs. Does this answer your questions? Yes. Maybe take a look at or help us to forecast it for the full year, because last year it was about EUR 109, if I'm correct, the total OpEx. I understand there are some temporary effects. We see as a% of sales an increase this year or not really? Well, you should see some increase also related to increased R&D expenses simply because of the ramp or the progress in hybrid developments, but also other applications. This year there will be an increase. We don't guide for a total year, but if you simply take the quarter and then you take out the expenses related to compensation, and you take the Besi run rate, that gives you an answer to projecting a model for the year. All right. Maybe last question, last follow-up about hybrid bonding. You've given numbers of 50 systems for TSMC, 50 for Intel. I guess it will not be in the same year. Do you have a view of how much of your total business hybrid bonding can become to all bases? Not yet. If you take the trajectory, 2022, 2023, the first mainstream applications. There are projections, of course, for the next five years, which can, for us, be a major game changer. Again, it all has to materialize. Also from these 50 machines, customers often mention numbers. It's always hard to forecast how much it will be in the end. Anyway, a significant growth for the next 3 to 5 years, and with a good start, let's put it that way. Thank you very much. Robert Sanders from the Deutsche Bank. Go ahead, please, sir. Hi there. Yeah, good afternoon. Thanks for that. Yeah, thanks for taking my question. It's just, again, on hybrid bonding. I was just wondering if you could just give some sort of qualitative comparison between how customers in the HPC are looking at this opportunity and mobile. Is it that the HPC guys are the most enthusiastic on chiplets, while mobile customers are maybe okay for now with wafer level concepts? Is it that you're seeing similar levels of interest across HPC and mobile customers? Thanks a lot. No, it's exactly how you stated. Mobile is in this generation, let's say, focused on wafer level. The interest is rightly put in the first category at this moment. It could very well change, or let's say change in a sense that in the next generation, also mobile will move to hybrid. Got it. Just to be clear, assuming the HPC market becomes all chiplet, let's say by 2025, 2026, does that necessarily mean that they will use hybrid bonding if that technology is mature? Are there other concepts they might consider? Is it really just they will just go with hybrid bonding? Thanks. Hybrid and EMIB, those are the two solutions and visions in these applications till date. Got it. With EMIB kind of inferior and hybrid kind of a successor, or you think they are kind of different schools of thought? We're engaged in both. Okay. I share your comment. Thank you. These were the questions. Oh, there's one more question. This from Michael Roeg from Degroof Petercam. Go ahead, please, sir. Yes, good afternoon. Well, after so many questions, I still have one left. You mentioned in the past that during upturns, you typically gain market share because you get your usual customers, but also some of these occasional customers that seek you out because their usual suppliers cannot provide. Is that also happening this time? Do you see all those occasional customers come back to you? Yeah. As we mentioned earlier, what's very interesting, in the last 2017 ramp, early 2018, our market application was narrower than it is today, which is amazing, and also bodes very well. We have a much broader customer base, far more applications, and that certainly, if we do our homework well, can lead to market share gains. If today you again have some of those occasional customers seeking you out because you can supply while others can't, what can you do to make them stick so that after the upturn, they don't leave you again, go back to their usual supplier? Well, first of all, it's all about the cost of ownership battle. We are not the last resort, to qualify it in those terms. If you look at semiconductor land in broad perspective, you have all kinds of devices, very simple, older generations, and you have the most advanced. In between, you have thousands of different device types. The ones you are referring to are a very small portion of our business, and certainly not at this moment. We are very much more to the high end than we were in the last cycle. Okay. I do also have a question about hybrid bonding. The numbers you've mentioned are very promising. What should we think about gross margins? Initially a bit lower until you tackle the learning curve, they expand towards the group average, for instance? That is a pattern which you see at many in the industry. So far, we have had less of those impacts. Maybe it's because we have more testing discipline before shipment. Usually, with new applications, there is a learning curve. The margins for these products are higher level margins, simply because of the complexity. Those are general statements. It also, of course, is directly related to competitive position. At this moment, we have a pretty strong position. You never know how that develops over time because all of our competitors are also very much interested in the hybrid bonding arena. That's as much as I can say, and it's certainly not a margin battle. Okay. Well, that's already quite a lot considering that a new product has an high ASP and good margins to start. That's it from my side. Thank you. Thank you. Those were the last questions. Please continue, Mr. Blickman. Well, thank you very much for your interest, and if you have any further questions, don't hesitate to contact us. Have a nice weekend. Bye-bye.