Hello, and welcome to the TKH Q3 2023 analyst call. My name is Laura, and I will be your coordinator for today's event. Please note, this call is being recorded, and for the duration of the call, your lines will be on listen only. However, you will have the opportunity to ask questions at the end of the call. This can be done by pressing star one on your telephone keypad to register your question. If you require assistance at any point, please press star zero, and you will be connected to an operator. I will now hand you over to your host, Alexander van der Lof, CEO of TKH, to begin today's conference. Thank you. Good morning, everyone. Warm welcome to this first analyst call, official analyst call that we have introduced, and our webcast. We believe we have delivered a strong set of results, and that amidst challenging market circumstances, especially in the Smart Vision and Smart Connectivity related to destocking effects. I have to say that all long-term growth drivers related to the defined mega trends are still well in place. But there is a short-term effect with the destocking. What is also very interesting to mention is the added value, which increased by about 3%. And that is mainly, of course, related to the cost inflation, where we had to increase also our prices. I believe we did a good job there to be able to compensate the cost inflation. We also see that we have invested quite a lot of money into hiring of people. It was around 200 more employees, FTEs, related to the ramp-up of the new plants. We can also say that the ramp-up is going quite well, especially related to the opening of the new plant in Poland, which is yeah not yet in full operation, but in a further ramp-up stage, with the official opening on the sixth of September. Amazing to see what has been created there in a relatively short period, and especially also to see the good performance coming out of these plants. Yeah, as you all know, we have by the end of September the cable distribution activities with a net profit of around EUR 20 million. We initiated a second share buyback program this year. I believe that shows also a lot of confidence that we have in TKH. And we mentioned in the press release that we are going to further accelerate the divestment opportunities that we have in the coming 12 months. We see good opportunities for investment in our core technologies, and that is, of course, a higher priority than continuing with activities that are not fitting that well in our future. And including with that, we also have decided to look then into further share buyback programs. Last but not least, on the first slide, we make very, very good progress with our strategic program. The access execution is well on track, and that supports, of course, the realization of our 2025 targets. And I believe I can say that it is still not impossible to reach these targets. I move then to the next slide. That is going in a little bit more in-depth in the three divisions. First of all, the Smart Vision activities, where we saw that Security Vision is doing quite well with a stable turnover. After a few quarters where we saw nice growth, Machine Vision declined and we have a stable situation at Security Vision, then the decline of the Machine Vision activities is around 14%-15%. A gain, mainly related to destocking effects, where we also have seen that the destocking effects have become worse compared to, let's say, August, when we presented our outlook for the rest of this year. Some lower demand also in consumer electronic and factory automation. It's really difficult to see what is related in the end to the destocking and to lower demand because of yeah worsening situation in the end markets. What we still saw is that the added value continued to be at a very high level close to 60%. Yeah, that is again a good confirmation of the quality of the activities that we have, the pricing power that we have, the innovations that we have in that segment. Yeah, we are really positive when the markets will come back, that these destocking effects will be gone. That, yeah, the contribution margin is very high for this segment, and we have to realize that while we keep costs at, let's say, the levels that we have today, and we are not cutting costs there. But I have to mention there that cost level is higher than last year, about EUR 4 million higher than last year, and that is all in anticipation of the next upturn that we are expecting. Then I move to manufacturing systems, Smart Manufacturing. A very, very good performance. We already saw that in the second quarter, that the supply chain was moving in the right direction with the easing of the component shortages. A continued strong order book, and that's especially, of course, related to a very strong order intake. We believe that, for the whole year, we again, have the opportunity to come above EUR 500 million order intake. And that is also an important, building stone, to achieve the targets in 2020-2025. In our original plan, we had there, to achieve at least EUR 500 million in the Tire Building segment in 2025. What we further see is that, Smart Connectivity, is, is on the move, especially strategically, scene. Have we mentioned in the second quarter or in August that we were selected for TenneT as one of the four suppliers for the Dutch market, and we are progressing well there to position ourselves for the first orders? The announcement of the single source supply agreement with Vattenfall is a major milestone to yeah get confirmation and show confirmation to the market about the unique position that we have with our advanced technology in the inter-array segment. What we see, of course, is the stocking effect that is yeah a difficult situation for the short term. However, what we see as confirmation that the demand is being prepared to take really off and also in the direction of a very good utilization of our investments that we are doing in the onshore energy cable business. And the question is, how many quarters will it take that the inventories at our customers are being normalized? Very important is that the offshore energy cable demand is looking still very, very good. A fter the announcement of the Vattenfall framework agreement, we believe we can announce in the coming quarters more orders in the preparation of a good utilization of our new plant in the Eemshaven, which is quite on track in the realization by the end of this year, and the first cables to be manufactured early January already, and in preparation of a serial manufacturing in the second quarter. Yeah, we then see, of course, the import duties that have a quite substantial effect on also the result, as we have not yet fully been able to substitute with the plant in Poland, the activities in China. That is now coming on stream and will have a more positive effect, and also on the return on sales. And besides that, we have decided to close the cable production activities in China due to the fact that we see a continuation of the high import duties, and in addition to that, also anti-dumping duties in the U.K., which limits now, let's say, the end markets that we can supply with the capacity from China. And we have decided to take a one-off cost in Q4 for that closure of the plant. Yeah, perhaps also mentioning the added value in the connectivity systems area, substantial improvement compared to last year, with about 4 percentage points. And that is, of course, very important also to translate that in the end to a good EBITDA margin, and is a good proof of the potential that we have to move up the return on sales towards the target that we have set there. In the third quarter, the return on sales was relatively low, was around 7.6%. If we look back to the first and second quarter, we were at around 11.5%. So yeah, the effects of missing an order in our subsea factory and the stocking effect is really having a huge impact, short-term impact. However, the steps that we have made with the added value and also what we have already realized in Q1 and Q2 is also very promising for the future. I'm moving to the next slide, the outlook. You all have been able to read that, so I'm going quickly through that slide. Have we continued to face the strong destocking effects? The question is, how long will that continue? We believe that the chances that within the coming 12 months, that upturn can be there, but it is very difficult to predict exactly when that upturn can be there. A s mentioned, we are completely prepared with all the capacity and resources to take full advantage out of the upturn. The outlook for Smart, but for the second half year, we now see a slight decrease in the results compared to what we previously thought that we still would be able to show growth in that segment. Within Smart Manufacturing, it has substantially further improved, with the easing of the supply chain, but especially also in combination with a very high order intake that we see coming in. We are very happy there with the additional capacity that we created in Poland in the last 12 months, which is supporting in a very good way the additional demand that we have today in this very nice segment. Yeah, about connectivity systems, I already mentioned that the destocking is currently an issue there, but there is a perspective for further growth in, I mean, one to two years. Yeah, and then overall, the outlook, we have reiterated the previous outlook of a profit between EUR 230 million and EUR 240 million. However, today, it is more likely that we will be at the lower end of the forecasted range. T he same applies to the net results, which we now forecast to be EUR 126 million-EUR 127 million to EUR 134 million, but also at the lower end. Yeah, so far, my presentation, and I would like to hand over to the Q&A. Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, as a reminder, if you would like to ask a question, please press star one on your telephone keypad. Thank you. We'll now take our first question from Martijn den Drijver at ABN AMRO. Your line is open. Please go ahead. Thank you, operator, and great pronunciation. Good morning, gentlemen. If I may, I'm going to take my questions one by one. On Smart Vision, you're guiding for a lower EBITDA, slightly lower EBITDA in the second half versus the first half. Now, normally, Smart Vision, if there's lower sales, it has a high gross margin, therefore high operational leverage. Can you explain to me why, if you're so negative or so cautious, why you only expect a slight decline in EBITDA? R elated to that, you mentioned that you've kept capacity and costs steady, anticipating an upturn. What is giving you that belief that there will be an upturn in, you know, in the next two, three, perhaps four quarters? Is that RFPs, RFQs? Can you elaborate a little bit on that? That's question one. Okay. Yeah, to react to the slight decrease, we still see turnover growth. So, we are pointing to the EBITDA, and there was a turnover growth. We still have this contribution of the higher turnover that we expect. However, the growth is much more limited than that we had in mind in August, although also in August, we warned for a potential worsening situation. T hen about the upturn, it is all about the sales funnel that we are looking at. W hat we see is that the sales funnel is more sensitive in respect of translation from quotes into orders. But yeah, the sales funnel looks really good, and there are many, many projects that we are working on. And yeah, that is giving, let's say, good feedback that the market is still very eager to do investments related to automation. But again, if you also look at what competitors see, I believe there is a similar picture that competitors see, let's say, starting from second half year, an upturn. And yeah, that is a similar situation that we see from, let's say, the sales funnel and feedback we get from customers to be that optimistic. Okay. Then a question on Smart Connectivity. Well, you already mentioned de-stocking, not quite sure when that's going to end, but you probably have perhaps, I hope, more insight into these project delays. What's the current situation with those delays, to the best of your knowledge? Is that just a one quarter delay, or again, like with the de stock, it could last a little bit longer? I believe it will take at least 2 quarters-3 quarters before that is normalized again. There is a substantial stock at our customers, at least. And what we see is that there are many, many initiatives at our customers to see that they can get up the rollout according to the original plans. And yeah, these plans were quite ambitious. You also read the newspaper, you see all kinds of reactions also from the government to see that they are working in especially the area of easing the permits, and that would be already very helpful if you get more efficiency from the permits. But I don't believe that that is, let's say, realized, that change in one quarter. That will take a few quarters, and in combination with that, we see that our end customers are also working on yeah a kind of efficiency solutions to get into workarounds for the permits, to make it much easier to get a permit to build in a much more standardized way. And yeah that perspective gives us at least some optimism that it will not take years before the market will come back. A s you also know, the pressure is really high with all the connections that need to be realized, and the very, very big, the big issues we have in the Netherlands at this point of time related to the rollout of of the networks and not keeping up the promises that have been made. Yeah, that's true. Just one follow-up on the closure of the Chinese optical, the Chinese plant. What kind of charges are we talking about? Is that low single digit, mid-single digit in terms of EUR millions? Good morning, Martin. So this is low single digit will be the one-off for the closure of the cable activities. Okay. Perhaps, savings of this slightly slower, lower magnitude than in 2024? Well, I mean, of course, the rationale behind this is, of course, having brought the capacity in Poland. So from that point of view, yes, when you talk about saving, you have to look at the integral picture, because we have built up the capacity which we have idle, let's say, in China, in Poland. So from that point of view, it doesn't really end up in a saving as such, but it's just a shift of cost base from China to Europe. You talked in the past about perhaps divesting this unit. Did you try that already, or is that now off the table, given that you're really bolting these activities? I don't think we have been, let's say, communicating that or have taken steps into that in the sense that we have a plan of divesting these activities. So that's not on the table at all, no. Okay. And then moving on to the divestments. You mentioned an acceleration of the divestment process. When we talk about potential divestments in terms of OpCos, does this go beyond distributor wholesale businesses? Well, if I formulated maybe in a little bit strange way, but it's not that, let's say the connectivity has the exclusive right to divestments. We look, of course, within the group at activities which are not, let's say, having a clear value proposition within the framework which we have identified. So the core technologies which we want to push, and that basically sets the scene or the scope of which companies would be applied to. But we have not disclosed a particular list of companies or a reference to specific areas. Okay. We will not do that today either. All right. T hen, just follow up on that one. You, you mentioned you're going to use the proceeds to invest in the core business. Now, that can mean M&A or CapEx. Is it both, or is it one more, is one more important than the other? It's not in terms of priority, but both are, of course, necessary to execute our strategy, and both are on the roadmap. Obviously, we have, let's say, in, in 2022, second half and 2023, are the key main highlights of our activities being the strategic investment program. So there's a lot of CapEx already going into strengthening our core technologies. So definitely it's something which will be there in the future as well, but not the scale as we, as we highlighted through this strategic investment program. But you're quite right, it's both CapEx as well as M&A, and of course, the share buyback, which we have included in the same, potential use of proceeds, line. Okay. Thank you very much, gentlemen. Thank you. Thank you. And we'll now move on to our next question from Chase Coughlan at Van Lanschot Kempen. Your line is open. Please go ahead. Good morning, all, and thank you for taking my questions. I'll take them one at a time, if that's okay. Just beginning with the, with the order book. So you report that you had a relatively stable order book versus June of this year, and you also mentioned that manufacturing obviously performed quite well. Within that, could you please provide a little bit more color on the order book for, for vision and connectivity there, assuming there was some decline there? Yeah, correct. In Smart Vision and Smart Connectivity, there has been some decline, and the upside, of course, is within manufacturing systems. Without going into the specific numbers in itself, but that's basically where the delta comes from. Okay. Okay. And then with regard to Smart Vision, I know you mentioned that, yeah, the volume impact you're seeing now is a result of both some destocking or primarily destocking, and then also maybe a decreasing level of business activity there as well. Can we expect this sort of destocking to also spill into 2024 quite a bit, considering you said, I think the effect was larger than you anticipated last quarter? Do you expect that then to continue quite strongly into 2024, or to eventually ease out by then? Yeah, I believe that is still difficult to predict because we don't know the exact stock levels at our customers. I would be somewhat disappointed if it would continue in the same pace as it has been the case in this quarter and the coming quarter. But that is all I can say about it. Okay, great. That's very clear. And then maybe my last question on connectivity. So, one of the leading European cabling manufacturers, a few weeks ago, mentioned in an earnings call that they saw some increased activity from Chinese players in the inter-array market. I'm just curious if you have seen any impact of this at all, or if you're seeing any pressure there, or any sort of color in that regard? No, there is no, let's say, increased activity. I believe the Chinese always, always have been present, and even they've been now and then a project. But, yeah, we are positioned, especially related to the superior technology that has many advantages, also in the cost of installation, through which we are really cost competitive, against also Chinese, let's say, competition. S o yeah, we are not seeing any, let's say, increased competition, but only can confirm that there has been competition also in the past. Okay, great. Yeah, thank you very much, gentlemen. I'll jump back in queue. Thank you. We'll now take our next question from Tijs Hollestelle at ING. Your line is open. Please go ahead. Yeah, thanks, operator. Morning, gentlemen. Yeah, my first question is also about the machine vision business. The decline you're mentioning is, of course, also helped by the consolidation effect, because that is allocated to that division. So if I do a rough calculation, also assuming there are some positive pricing, then volumes were down about 15% in the quarter. And I'm, I myself are a bit suspicious about companies calling it destocking, but you see that on a wide front. It's not TK specific, but it sounds better than calling it underlying demand. So how is it that you are, let's say, sure that it is destocking? Because it's so many end markets and customers, different products. So can you have a view on that? That is, let's say, the first question about machine vision, and then also in addition, overall, the predictability of this business. Does the development surprise you in a way that maybe clients in conversations are telling you different stuff than they are actually ordering, let's say, a few months later? Do you feel comfortable with how the overall machine vision business is going on? So those two questions about machine vision, please. Okay, thank you very much. Yeah, the decline, we know definitely from the customers, the distributors that we are supplying, that they are reducing their stock. And if you talk to some of these distributors that are publicly listed, then you will also notice that they see that effect at their customers. And yeah, it is also feedback we directly get from customers that they had too much inventory, and it was quite obvious why that happened, and that is because of the long lead times that were in place there with technology that you could not do without. And so with the short lead times, and that's not only the case at the TKH Vision Group, but also at competitors, is now between two and perhaps four, six weeks. And that means that, yeah, you don't need that stock. I have to admit that there are certainly also something going on in the end markets. If you look at some of the manufacturers in the capital goods side, then there's definitely in some areas, a weakening of end markets also. On the other side, you see the automation trend, which gives a very high priority for investment in especially the vision technology. It is all about eyes-off, hands-off manufacturing. What we also see is that new applications are continuously being developed. We see that in our own group also, why we continue to invest very heavily in the innovations and in the new applications, including the software proposition that that we have. But, yeah, certainly there is, there's a part that is related to to lower demand, but going to our own Smart manufacturing activities, we see an even an increased demand. So it's a mixed picture. We see customers that are doing well and also have continued to to increase the volumes that they are buying. Yeah, the good thing is, again, that the automation needs to be continued, and it's all about eyes off, hands-off manufacturing. And that is, yeah, a great trend, which you cannot do without, and that will drive demand in the coming one to two years. But we are also heavily depending on that as the incremental margin is very high. I mentioned close to 60% added value. So every euro that we are missing is having a big impact, but also taking it from a positive way, every euro additional turnover is also contributing quite strongly as we have all the costs already in place for a substantial higher turnover. Yeah. Yeah, because, because it's a growth market, I'm always hoping that you can also have the opportunity to, let's say, add new customers. And I think you also spoke- Yeah About that in August, that there were new projects adding as of the fourth quarter, that that can compensate a little bit. But indeed, for us, as outsiders, it's very difficult to track the true underlying market development. It is. But, okay, it is also for TKH different to escape the wider cycle. And, just to be sure, the acquisition of Euresys, it was not, it's not a company which has extremely high margins compared to the divisional level, that it is compensating kind of in the reporting? No, that is about similar level, but at the high end. Okay. Yeah. Okay, that's helpful. And then, yeah, I have the question about, where is it? Yeah, on the, the offshore wind, the subsea cable business. Mm-hmm. Also here, a lot of conflicting news flow. You do see a lot of delays now on the global offshore wind market, but at the same time, yeah, the lead times or the engineering phases and a lot of projects in execution, a lot of them are still going on. The Vattenfall framework agreement is good news, I agree, but are you able to provide us a bit more feel for how this is going to translate into actual revenue and results for TKH? Because we, of course, yeah, we have been slightly disappointed by the already the shift from the third quarter. Can you- Yeah, and I believe that that is also what people see, that it is not, in that respect, a stable business where there are, I believe, if we look at the track record of the industry, there are almost always shifts in and delays in orders. So what is our strategy to compensate for that? You know, we have a plant that, in theory, could manufacture 1,200 km. We already have a sound profitability meeting at least the TKH targets when we are at the utilization of 600 km, and that's a relatively small volume if you look at the total market. What we are trying to do is see that we get at least 800+ in the order books per year. And then, yeah, they're taking into account that there will always be one project that might move to get to a minimum utilization of the 600 km. That's where we are working on, and that looks quite positive. And, especially when we look for 2026, when we see that the demand is all coming together. That's also one of the reasons that we see now these kind of framework contracts to get a kind of guaranteed slot for manufacturing. Y eah, that is not for nothing, that these kind of contracts are now being created. For 2024-2025, it might be more difficult to get the headroom in, but at this point of time, we believe for the coming year to be around 450 km, and for the year after, around 600 km. But the risk is there, a little bit higher of a project move than it will be afterwards, 2025. As we see a very good sales funnel coming in for starting from 2026 to go beyond, let's say, the 700km-800 km even. Yeah, and to my understanding, it is also not possible to really quickly, let's say, spec in a large order. I mean, we talked in the past about those kind of maintenance repair orders, which are relatively small. You can do that quickly. Yeah. But if you, let's say, have an open production slot for, I don't know, the next, the second quarter next year, it will be very difficult to sign a project for it, because the preparation time of this project is very long. Is that a correct way to look at it? Yeah, there is a long lead time, but what we also see is standardization. So there's also room to move projects to an earlier slot. And what we also see is that there is flexibility. It might lead to some additional working capital if you move it to an earlier slot. There are a lot of options in the end to continue a kind of similar utilization in the quarters you have. T hat is what we try to organize also, to have a kind of steady utilization, and that looks possible. That makes the business case, of course, even more sound than when you are, let's say, confronted with these project moves and then underutilization in one quarter. But we think we can manage to, yeah, be more immune for that. First of all, because of a harder order, bigger order intake, and order book that we are targeting. But we still have a very small market share with the approach that we have to get to this utilization of at least 600 km. It is still a market share of around 20%, and, yeah, I believe with the superior technology we have, a higher market share could also be possible. But let's not be too optimistic at this point of time and try to be as much as realistic as we are with preferably upward potential instead of downward potential. Yeah. Okay, one final remark, because also hearing from listening to other players in this field, it also matters today, who is the client, yeah? Because we have seen that there are some clients who are, yeah, let's say, a bit optimistic in their assumptions regarding financing costs, general cost inflation. Yeah. So the likelihood that those kind of offshore wind developers cancel the orders are higher. Is that also something that you're probably aware of that, but do the clients, do these clients also allow TKH to look into their own, yeah, let's say, project financing approach? Or do you have that, do you have that kind of information about the customers? Yeah, well, that's available, of course. We also have that on our radar. And yeah, we have, of course, very close and intense discussions about probabilities and risks of projects to, in the end, have the right approach from our side that we get the right utilization. And again, what is very positive is that we have so much headroom in winning projects that we will not stop at 700 km-800 km. And that is good from a utilization point of view, that we don't need to get to that high quantities, and that we are really under pressure there. That is something that is quite unique, that we have been able to manage already to have a sound business case, 600 km utilization. Okay, okay. Yeah, one final question, and I won't ask whether you're gonna dispose these businesses, but TKH is still running a parking solutions business in the Smart Vision division. What do you expect is the annual turnover level of the parking this year? And did the business return to break-even levels in 2023? Now, first, we have to understand that we have several technologies that we apply into the parking area. And I would say the majority of these activities are very profitable. So it's for instance, mission-critical communication, access control systems, and also OCR systems, video systems for license plates recognition. And then I believe you are pointing to the parking guiding systems that we also have in our portfolio, which has been the bleeding in respect of the result. And that is mainly because of yeah, underutilization of that these activities, especially related to the airport market, where we have seen hesitation in investments. The good news is that the utilization at the airport is going to really high levels again, and that the appetite for investment is coming back. The differentiation power in that technology is not at the highest end of the TKH technologies. There's a strong software component in that is kind of decommoditizing the relatively cheap cameras we have in that system. And it has from a margin contribution point of view, it has an above average TKH added value. So yeah, we continue to focus on returning that business to the turnover level that is bringing us the yeah, let's say, TKH target returns. We still believe that is possible, and that has our priority to get that out. We are today, I believe, around EUR 15 million turnover in that segment. And, yeah, we are trying to get it as quick as possible to EUR 30 million, and then we are at TKH target levels in respect of return on sales. So, this year it will be profitable. So we, we made a good move there, and there's more to come, but we, we keep a close look on that, as we don't want to have kind of this activity as a leader in our portfolio, then, then we would further decide to divest in a more rapid way. Yeah, okay, that's clear. And the same question for the airfield lighting business, because I think also that's- I was already afraid that question would come. Yeah. Yeah, it's not moving as quick as we would have liked to see that developing, although yeah, continuously good progress, but that is this year still a big bleeder of EUR 3 million-EUR 4 million results. And yeah, is an important building stone to get also towards the targets of the connectivity activities in 2025 to move up the average of the connectivity activities. And that still looks possible. We see bigger projects where we are positioned than ever. But you need to have them in the order book before you can execute and realize your profitability. But we also have a close look there, more focused approach from also management, top management. You know, Erik is today full-time working on that. And, yeah, we still are confident that there are good opportunities to improve that profitability. Yeah, that's clear. Thank you very much. Thank you. We'll now move on to our next question from Thibault Leneeuw at KBC Securities. Your line is open. Please go ahead. Good morning. I only have one quick follow-up question. With respect to the Vattenfall, the size of the contract. I'm just looking for some additional color on the megawatts and the gigawatts, and the relation between the amount of kilometers and cables. Is that more a linear relationship, or which dynamics are at play there? Yeah, I believe for, let's say, 1 GW, it's around 180... Jacqueline is correcting me. She says 150 km. So, yeah, that is a way of calculating. Although, what you also have to take into account, what is the distribution of the sizes of the cable you have in a project, and that is on the move. We have even capacity now to move up to 3 times 1,600 mm². We see that the average is moving up to more close 800 mm² and 1,000 mm², where it has been in the past one or two years, more close to 500, 400-500 on an average. So it's not only the number of kilometers, but in the end, also the mix, that will drive the turnover. And, I'm not sure if I answered the question there. Yes. No, that's clear. I was just looking for which components amount to the revenue. Well, from my end, this will be all. Okay. Thank you. We'll have a follow-up. Sorry, no. We've got a question from Maarten Verbeek from The Idea. Your line is open. Please go ahead. Good morning, it's Maarten Verbeek from The Idea. A couple of questions from my side. Firstly, you mentioned your divestment. You're going to accelerate that. At your 2021 CMD, you indicated that you will have portfolio management changes of between EUR 150 million and EUR 200 million. CAE is about 130. Does this imply that still the EUR 20 million-EUR 70 million remains, or have you changed your view on your scope changes? No, we, we execute what we communicated at that time, so you're quite right about the bracket of 20- 70 to go. Okay. You also mentioned your order book, but just before the close of the quarter, you have divested CAE Group. What kind of impact had that on your order book? Relatively small, because the business they are in, and that's one of the reasons why we have divested them, is very short-term driven. So from that point of view, it has, let's say, a EUR 5 million-EUR 10 million bracket in terms of impact on order book. Okay, thanks. And lastly, this year, you have signed a contract with TenneT and Alliander. Do those two parties already generate revenues for 2023? And also, could you give some kind of indication what kind of revenues we could expect from these two parties in 2024? Yeah, that is too detailed, customer-related information. We are not allowed to disclose that. But yeah, we are looking in the coming two years to generate at least between EUR 50 million and EUR 75 million additional turnover in high voltage cable. Concerning my questions for this year, do they already contribute to revenues, or is that more or less negligible? Very limited. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you. There are no further questions in queue. As a final reminder, if you would like to ask a question, please press star one on your telephone keypad. Thank you. There are no further questions in queue. I will now hand it back to Alexander for any closing remarks. Thank you. Okay, many thanks to all of you for asking these good questions and attending the meeting. I hope we could give you a good more in-depth view on where we are moving, and I believe we are still having a good perspective at TKH and a bright future. I'd like to thank you again and wish you all a great day. Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes today's call. Thank you for your participation. Stay safe. You may now disconnect.