Thank you for your patience and welcome to the Akelius update call. My name is Adam, and I will be your operator for today. If you'd like to ask a question today, please press star followed by one on your telephone keypad to enter the queue. I will now hand over to Johan Germark to begin. Johan, please go ahead when you are ready. Thanks, Adam, and hi, everyone. Johan Germark here from Danske Bank. Warm welcome to this update call with Akelius in connection to yesterday's transaction of Castellum shares, now meaning Akelius being the largest owner in Castellum. Presenters today are CEO Ralf Spann and CFO Leiv Synnes. There are no slides for this call, and we will start with a short update from the management team, and then we will go directly to Q&A. With that, Ralf, please go ahead. Yes. Thank you, Johan. Hello, my name is Ralf Spann. I'm the CEO of Akelius. In December 2021, we have disposed of our properties in Germany and Denmark and Sweden. Since then, we have invested approximately EUR 500 million in assets in North America, including some deals we will close soon. We're always looking for good opportunities to reinvest the proceeds from the disposal. Yesterday, Akelius has acquired 12% of the shares of Castellum, and that is equal a volume of EUR 424 million. The liquidity in Akelius is very strong, so the investment volume yesterday is only 14% of the liquidity per June 2022. If you include the Akelius group, which includes the dividends we have paid out, then the investment is less than 10%. Akelius becomes the largest shareholder in Castellum. For now, we consider that investment as a pure financial investment. The deal which we were offered is a very rare opportunity in terms of volume of the shares. There hasn't been many opportunities, comparable to the one of Castellum. We see a discount of the share price in relation to the net asset value, depending on how you calculate between 30%-50%. We believe that the transaction is a very good deal for Akelius, even if there are coming some turbulences in the market. The Castellum transaction offers Akelius diversification in terms of currency, asset class, and geographically. Castellum provides a very strong dividend yield. The dividend yield so far has been 6.7% compared to the Akelius yield of 2%. Castellum has a strong and diversified position in the Swedish commercial real estate market. It has a growing presence in other Nordic markets like Finland, Norway, and Denmark. Another good topic about Castellum is they are the front runner in sustainability, and they're the most sustainable property company in the Nordics. This sustainability work in Castellum can be and will be a positive contribution to Akelius' efforts in that field. The next step with Castellum from our side is that we aim to keep Castellum's rating and improve the rating going forward. We will of course have a seat in the board, and we will support the existing management. Now I hand over to Leiv. Thank you. As Ralf mentioned, it's a good investment for Akelius, and less than 10% of Akelius Group's liabilities spent on the shares. The dividend deal is good, as Ralf mentioned. As if you count that as adding to the EBITDA in the Akelius Group, it increases the EBITDA by EUR 18 million. That is equivalent to a 16% increase in EBITDA for Akelius Group. When considering the rating in Akelius, the EBITDA is a factor that is on the weaker side in our rating assessment. Improving the EBITDA is important for Akelius. This transaction helps Akelius to improve. The investments is only 4% of total assets in Akelius Residential Property AB. It's not a material investment. Even if it's a large in euro, it's not a large portion of the company. Akelius intends to still be like a mainly residential property company. I think that's it, and we can move over to Q&A. As a reminder, if you'd like to ask a question today, please press star followed by one on your telephone keypad now. When preparing to ask a question, please ensure your headset is fully plugged in and unmuted locally. That's star followed by one on your telephone keypad. The first question today comes from Darren Hook from NatWest. Darren, please go ahead. Your line is open. Hello. Thanks for taking my questions. Just got a couple of questions. First of all, I take it you kind of downplayed the size of the investment, but I just wonder, you know, what we can expect in the future. I mean, you made the right call. You will see your stock rose great. You know, kind of investors in terms of selling, you know, the Swedish, German and Danish portfolios at the right time in the cycle. This might be a small investment, you know, in commercial real estate, but can we expect, you know, Akelius to be radically different in six months time, 12 months time? Can we expect you to have taken over Castellum? I saw you emphasize financial investment. That takes me to the next point. It's good you coming in, you know, kind of supporting the company with warm words. Your comment about, in particular, supporting the current rating and improvement over time. But you know kind of that's great, but can you maybe express how you will do that, how you will achieve it? It's fine being on the board, but can we expect more than that going forward? I guess the third question you know is around the current corporate governance in terms of Akelius whether you think it's strong and whether you know by stating you support management do you support the current CEO you know in going forward is that the plan? Maybe I'll leave it there and I'll come back at the end if there's time if I have additional questions. All right. Okay. Starting with your second or third questions regarding the management. Yes, we support the current existing management, and that includes the CEO. To your first question regarding the future. Well, as I mentioned, that has been a rare opportunity to buy 12% of one of the top real estate companies in Scandinavia. We took that opportunity. Now we first will speak to the local team and the management, to the other board members and see, listen to their views, and then we will decide how we proceed going forward and also considering the development of the share prices, of course. Regarding Akelius will always be a residential company. As Leiv mentioned, the share of the investment in Castellum is very small given the total asset volume of Akelius. The preliminary goal is to stay a residential real estate company with long-term view and that won't change. The comments you, on the board, do you intend to push any changes in corporate governance? I take it, you're committed that residential, as far as the current strategic plan, will remain overwhelmingly the business profile of Akelius. Because you get the point, you know, residential is safer than commercial. Investors will be a bit worried because it's quite radical. It was the right decision when you did come selling 60% of your asset value as you did. Going forward, you know, investors will be a little bit concerned on, you know, where, how the business profile could be skewed, especially as you've gone into higher yielding markets on the residential side. Okay. Yes. Regarding the- Yeah. Regarding the board, what you mentioned, we already scheduled a meeting with the chairman, and we'll also meet the other board members. We will, of course, as I said, require a seat on the board. First we will meet and listen to the board before we come up with any suggestion how to change it. Okay, I guess on the board. Leiv, you had also a comment. Yeah. What was the other part of the question there? Then maybe I can ask on a previous question, and that was like how we can support Castellum then. The rating is one step above the high yield space at the moment. I think the company is dependent on being an investment grade company. If the credit market and the capital market worsen, and there will be a pressure on the rating, I think we can take our part in the equity contributions that might need to be in place in order to support an investment grade rating. Okay. Thank you for that. The next question comes from Pranava Boyidapu from Barclays. Pranava, please go ahead. Your line is open. Thank you for taking my question. I think Darren asked most of the questions that I had in mind, but could you explain a bit more on how you intend to support the rating? Does that mean that you would be willing to inject new equity at some point if required to maintain the IG rating? And also would you be willing to increase your shareholding in Castellum at this stage? I mean, even if it continues to remain a financial asset? Those both are possible options we are already discussing, but we haven't decided yet. Sorry, that was the answer to which question? I mean. All of it. To inject equity, that is of course, an option we are discussing, but we haven't decided. Yeah. That of course, we have spoken about that internally. Yes. How about the other question in terms of increasing shareholding from the market as is in terms of the financial investment? Yeah, I would say that that's a little bit too early to say. That's too early. We haven't decided on that. Could be an option, but as well as inject equity. That is too early to make a commitment to both options. Okay. Thank you. Maybe I can answer on another thing: the comment that commercial is being more risky than residential. I think it also depends on what price you buy and what yield you get on your investment. In this case, the yield on the investment is good and far above what you can get if you invest in residential. I think it's very positive to increase the EBITDA even if we have a slight share of commercial property in the company. The next question comes from Ida Karlsson from Fastighetssverige. Ida, please go ahead. Your line is open. Thank you so much. My question is, what is your long-term aim with now being the largest owner in Castellum? What's your goal? Also I would like to know if you're interested in investing in other listed Swedish real estate companies. Thirdly, I would be interested to know if you're investing in property in Sweden or in Europe soon. Regarding the last question regarding investing in properties in Sweden or Europe, I mean, we are always having a close ear to the market and looking for good opportunities to reinvest the proceeds from our disposal. We have done so far investments for EUR 500 million in North America this year, 2022. What we see is that the prices for shares of listed real estate companies are running with a discount today, much larger discount than some of the assets which are out for sale. That means that we probably won't buy that much going forward until the market comes to a balance in terms of expectations from seller and buyer, which is not the case today because we see somewhat slower transaction volume and also the pace of acquisitions has been slowed down the last six months. We are, of course, looking not only on assets in different countries where we invested. We are also following share price of listed company, and that is quite normal business for us as well. If there are good opportunities on the market, we might consider that as well. It always depends on the price, the volume and the timing, right. That is the answer to your second question. The first questions regarding Castellum. As Leiv and me already mentioned that this is at this stage a purely financial investment. So far we say, well, let's see how it will develop. Leiv mentioned and also I, that we will support the management. We will improve or at least keeping the rating, maybe improve the rating and, that will take a while. That cannot happen within three months. I would say we have some kind of midterm view on Castellum, on our financial investment here, minimum. Maybe I also can comment on what we can improve and some of the questions are in that field. That is the investors' concern about the governance in the Swedish real estate sector, also the refinancing risk at the moment in the capital markets. I think these are the two things we can help Castellum to improve. Especially the thought on the refinancing risk. Well, like Akelius, as Ralf mentioned earlier, have a new liquidity reserve, which can be helpful for a company, if such need occur. Those are the two areas we can help Castellum with. All right. Thank you. The next question comes from Donald Phillips from Liontrust. Donald, please go ahead. Hi. Thanks. Just a couple of questions. First of all, can you be able to tell us where the original idea came from to make this financial investment? Was it with senior management or was it with your own, I guess primary founder? To the extent there's a relationship there between management. I'm not quite clear on what that relationship is, but to the foundation, I guess. Whose idea was it? Second question, you know, you're talking about potential support, would buying distressed Castellum debt securities be part of the levers that you're thinking about in that context? Thank you. Okay, first I can answer the first question. Maybe Leiv you can comment on the second question. I can understand that this might be of high interest at how that can be, how that deal came to the table. I hope you understand that, we won't comment on that as normal if you buy or sell assets, mostly there is a third party involved to bring both parties on the table. Please understand that we cannot comment in detail how that deal came up. Leiv, do you want to comment on the second? More of my questions, the specifics of how it came about. It's more, was this a senior management decision to go ahead and execute on the trade, or was that decision suggested to you by Roger Akelius? No, Roger Akelius is not involved in any decision process here. That was purely a decision of the management and the board of Akelius. Okay. That's really clear. Thank you. Yeah. The part of the stress test, I don't think Castellum has at the moment any major capital need that they can't solve themselves. It's more that I don't think we need to buy any debt in the market at the moment. I think what we might do is to tempt them to achieve the rate that is high enough to be a successful partner in capital market and also to continue to do the investment that they want to do these days. The next question comes from Erik Granström from Carnegie. Erik, please go ahead. Thank you. Good afternoon. Most of my questions have already been answered, but I have one question that perhaps is a bit of a clarification. When you say that this is a financial investment for Akelius, does this mean that you don't expect to change the strategy of Castellum going forward? Meaning Castellum as a commercial specialist versus yourself as a residential specialist. As I pointed out already today, we will continue with the current CEO. We believe that Castellum is one of the best real estate companies in the Nordics. It is the front runner in sustainability. We believe in that company and the management. We have no intention today to change the strategy or the agenda of Castellum. Okay. Thank you. That was my question. The next question comes from Stefan Shchurmann from Credit Suisse. Please go ahead. Your line is open. Just a clarification. Sorry to come back to that, but on one hand, the message is for now this is a financial investment. And you also say you want to focus on residential properties. You seem open also in the same way to increase your shareholding in Castellum. How do we reconcile both, that you could increase your stake, but you still want to be focused on residential properties? I'll ask. Thank you. Maybe, Leiv, you can comment on the share of this investment to the whole asset volume we have, even if we would slightly increase our share there. Yes. Today it's 4% of the total assets. Even if we increase it will not be above 10% in our opinion. Ralf mentioned earlier, there is like a difference between what the share price or the stock market value values properties and the property market. It's impossible today to buy a single A at the yield that we get from the Castellum trade. When the market changes in a couple of years, maybe stock prices go up or the single property prices go down, then it might be like economical to buy to reallocate into real estate again. In that market, we will primarily buy residential properties. Thank you. Thank you very much. The next question comes from Maria Granlund from Alfred Berg. Maria, please go ahead. Yes. Yes. Hello. Thank you. Yes, I know my questions have already been answered, but I have perhaps two questions. Back to the how you can improve the investment grade rating. So you say that that is by either equity increase or by being supporting Castellum financially when it comes to refinancing. Or do you see other ways as well? Because when interest rates are rising and yields are rising, I guess the value of the properties will decline and the loan to value will increase. So the company might be heading into weaker credit ratios. So just curious about what tools you if you could say something more could help Castellum with. And the second question is with yields. You say that you acquired Castellum at an attractive yield. Could you elaborate a little bit on that? Because the equity market is pricing in a higher yield now on real estate companies, whereas the direct market is still having low yields. Could you elaborate a little bit around that difference and what you see or we should expect of yields with current rate increases in interest rates? Is that something you could talk more about? Maybe I can answer the first part. We are having 12% of the shares. If the company and the other owners also feel that they need to raise equity in order to support the investment grade rating, we are willing to take our part in that transaction and support the company. I don't think that this threshold can Castellum to Castellum in order to buy the debts, but more in order to help them to have healthy leverage in the company. Better What was your question about the yields again? Sorry. Yeah. What kind of implied yield do you mean that you acquired the shares on? Could you say something about the difference on the yield you get by acquiring companies instead of direct properties at the moment? What kind of yield you expect to see going forward in direct investing in properties? Yeah. Yeah. Considering the interest rates are rising. Yeah. Yeah. What we have seen until the end of last year, maybe January, February, were still very aggressive transaction market. A lot of bids above guidance from the brokers, high competition and kind of bidding process there. It has changed with the war in Ukraine. It has changed with the increasing interest rates. It was still a quite active market in Q1. Even in Q2, there were many transactions happening. What we see since summer is that the yields expectations going up. That depends a little bit on the market, on the type of asset you are looking into. They are going up slightly. We see less competition. We see slower acquisition process. It takes more time to dispose of properties, and the expectation from buyer and seller are much too different than it was 9, 12 months ago. That is the case going forward. Personally, I believe that the asset prices for real estate will slightly go down. It depends a little bit on, again, on the type of asset on the market. We also see very strong rental growth in U.S. and in Canada, which can partly balance higher yields. But if your rental growth is limited and you face higher interest costs, then of course it might be different, which is a case in Germany as well in Scandinavia or in Sweden. Right? Having said this, we expect yields slightly to increase and we expect in some markets that prices will continue going down. If you then buy equity like you do in Castellum, what kind of implied yield does that give you? I mean, the cap rate in Castellum is 4.7%-4.8%, right, Leiv? That is 4.7%-4.8% or something. As we mentioned that we buy the shares in comparison to net asset value of something, depending on how you calculate between 30% and 50% discount, then you can do the math and that then you come to a proper yield, right? Yeah. It's 4.7. Yes. Okay. Okay, thank you. The next question comes from Diego Pitarch from Rothschild. Diego, your line is open. Please go ahead. Hi, thank you for your time. Similarly, to other investors, most of my questions got answered already, but I just had sort of a follow-up question on dividend yield point you mentioned. You said that one of the attractive points about Akelius that they have a good dividend yield, but in the current market environment, that dividend payment might not come through. I was wondering how you see that risk or you strongly believe that dividends will follow through despite the market conditions. That's an interesting question. It's very hard to predict the future and to say what will happen in half a year or 12 months. I mean, as the largest shareholder of Castellum, we hope that we can communicate our opinion and maybe make a good recommendation how to proceed with the years. It also depends on the performance of Castellum for this year, 2022, and the forecast for the next years. I would say it's a little bit too early to say that, but either direction, we have spent some thought on that. We believe- Okay. Strongly in the management of Castellum, and we believe actually that they will be able to pay out the dividend. If I remember correctly, they pay out 50% of their profit as a dividend, right? That was their philosophy so far. Okay, thank you. That's very clear. Just also another follow-up. You said that this EBITDA is used to support your own rating. I just wanted to ask, what is your relationship sort of with S&P, because you're on negative outlook, I believe. How is that prospect looking, and whether you would be okay with a large downgrade to triple B minus or strongly want to believe to stay in triple B space? Currently, Akelius trades way better than the other peers in the triple B segment in Nordic sector. In that sense, it's more to the investors than to S&P. The next question comes from David Schnaps of Amundi. David, please go ahead. Your line is open. Thanks. Hi, guys. I think maybe just a clarification, most of my question's been answered as well. Did you say something earlier about reinvesting in European properties somewhere down the line? I just wondered if that was a shift in strategy or whether you're just talking about sort of London, Paris, that you mentioned before, or were you talking about Nordic properties again? Or did I mishear? No, we can partly, we have answered that already, but we, as I said, the current asset prices in the market are much higher than the share price for listed real estate companies. We believe going forward, there will be better opportunities to buy and especially, mainly in all our markets where we invest in real estate. We see that the asset prices are higher than the share prices, and that will take time until they come into the balance, and then we might consider buying again, but not for now. Okay, thanks. Over and out. The next question comes from Chris Roberts from BNP Paribas. Chris, please go ahead. Yeah, to be honest, all of my questions have been answered. Thank you. Okay. The next question comes from Guillaume Langellier from Columbia Threadneedle. Guillaume, please go ahead. Yeah, good afternoon, guys. Just a few questions from me. First of all, can you know, you're making a number of statements about Castellum and, you know, quality of the group management, things like that. Can you just clarify to whether you did due diligence before acquiring the stake? You asked about due diligence about buying that stake? Yeah. Nick, you want to say something or should I? Yeah, we did not do like a large due diligence, as you do when you buy like 100% of a company. Okay. You're now the largest holder and you're the board. Yes. It's also, I mean, about timing, about price, and that plays a major role when you make such a decision. That impacts also the due diligence. Mm-hmm. Also the fact that at least we can't give more information on Castellum, that will become an insider event. Okay. Can I just also, if it's about price, can I understand a little bit your strategy here? I think on the annual report, it says Akelius Residential, AB. You know, what's the strategy now going forward? You know, are you going to be an opportunistic real estate fund? Are you doing arbitrage? You said you're looking at all your markets, so can we expect you to, you know, be someone that a lot of companies are gonna knock on the door and, you know, if they think they've got some challenges or they've got, you know, equity stakes to be raised? You know, there's plenty of real estate companies out there that are trading at massive discounts to net tangible assets, even more than 50%. You know, what's the strategy here? We already mentioned that the share Castellum is very low compared to the rest of the Akelius assets, right? We will always be a residential real estate company with a long-term view. That's our preliminary goal. That won't change. This transaction was one of the very rare opportunities to acquire a 12%, becoming the largest shareholder in one of the best- Real estate companies in the Nordics. That was a very rare opportunity to act like that. If you look ahead and going forward, I mean, I cannot exclude that we would buy some shares of another company. I cannot exclude that. In the same way, I cannot exclude that we buy assets in six months when the prices have dropped. That depends on the opportunities, but the long-term goal and the ambition is that Akelius will stay a residential real estate owner with a long-term view. Okay. Still, again, I think there's a contradiction in terms here because you're saying you're a long-term holder, but then you're looking at opportunistic stakes. I mean, you know, around town trades that are. Yeah. 30% discount. Vonovia over 50%. Adler Yeah. out there as well. I mean, what's not to buy? What are you saying, what's not to buy? Yeah. Yeah. Maybe the timing. Well, I mean, they're trading at all-time lows, all of them. The whole real estate Yeah. The market is in the toilet right now, so. Yeah. It depends on your expectation for going forward. For so far, we are fine. The first financial investment with such a volume, right? Let's give it some time, how we handle it, how it will develop, and then we will see. The amount of investment in such opportunities. I don't see that will become a major part of Akelius now. I mean, it's not. You cannot exclude that depending on what you just said, because they are traded with a discount. So far we are fine and happy with yesterday's transaction. Yeah. Yeah. I think your CFO made that point that it's only a small percentage of the assets, but if it's not that special. Why hold a special call for that? I guess is my question. Another one. There's a few other stakes as well into asset management. There's things like Corem, this company I can't pronounce, Wästbygg. I can't pronounce that, sorry. W-A-S-T-B-Y-G-G. There's 12% in Sagax. There's quite a few other companies in the Nordic space. Are these things that should we assume that everything's potentially a financial investment? Maybe I can unpack on the previous comment. I think it's fair to say that we are like a little bit optimistic because we sold because we had a view that the sun might not always shine as it did last year. Then we also bought now and things look a little bit different. In a way you are correct that we have acted a little bit optimistic. But you must also consider that we have been like rather conservative. We are one of the strongest players at the moment with in Akelius we have EUR 5 billion in financial assets and most of them are at fixed rate and the average rating is single A. We have put one part of that amount into a very good real estate company. In a way, you're correct, but also you need to see the big picture, that we're playing our cards rather carefully. I guess, you know, we've had the transformation last year and that was a surprise. You know, the time has proven you absolutely right. Well done on that. From that point thereon, I think we're all expecting further asset purchase in the current market, in the asset class that you are a specialist in, where you have the infrastructure to source assets. I guess it just comes up as a big surprise that, you know, you're now interested in not just equity stakes, but also in things that are commercial real estate, which is away from your niche and expertise, particularly if there isn't a real, you know, extensive due diligence process. I think, as you say, yes, you have a lot of financial strength, and you might be one of the very few players in town for the next few months. I guess I'm just raising a comment or a question that, there might be a lot of opportunity in your core asset classes, in your core geographies coming your way. That might be correct, that there might be more opportunities coming up. Yes. It's like, in a way, I agree with you, but also if there were serious problems on the property side, and the assets were spread all over the place, and if you have such a problem with the property company, and it was like in Africa, because we didn't have an experience of, you know, more correct. In this case, then it's a very good company when it comes to assets. Have like good like portfolios with no major problems. It's not- Yeah. It doesn't need to add any competence to them in managing their portfolio. Okay. I guess, just want to see if we make that comment to help myself. When you say that, you know, you trade inside a lot of the other Nordic peers, I think your other Nordic peers have a lot of problems, particularly, you know, Balder and SBB, DSS, you know. I don't think it's necessarily, you know, a great achievement to trade inside them, certainly on the bond side. Just another comment from my side. Just jumping on the governance side. You said that you are looking to potentially improve the governance of Castellum. It's a very interesting comment, obviously, especially in the Nordic real estate governance. It's a great topic. How do you intend to do that? Do you have any kind of initiative ideas so far? I don't recall that we said we want to change the government or something. We said Governance. Yeah, we meet them. We will meet them, we will listen to them, and then we will see what we can change to improve everything there. We don't have a playbook or a game plan right now to that. Okay. I thought it was an earlier question that we raised by one of the- I mean, we expect a seat on the board, and we will discuss it with the chairman and the other stakeholders probably. No, I don't recall that we mentioned something like that today. Okay. I'll leave it there. Thank you. The next question comes from Alex Moss of M&G Investment Management. Alex, please go ahead. Afternoon, guys. I'm going to rephrase Neil's question in a different way. Of all things that you could have bought out there, talking about discounts, cheap assets, whatever else it happens to be, you chose to buy an equity stake in a company in a completely different sector, which is still in Scandinavia. Given all the issues around governance, why on earth did you choose to do that rather than buy something else out there that was equally cheap? That's the first question. The second question is how do you think you're going to get on with the current CEO? Because it's still his baby, it's still his company. What happens if you fall out and what happens if there's any issues? Thirdly, how do you think it's going to improve the governance in the Scandinavian real estate market? When making up another shareholding that's been added to the section, which there are way too many already. Thanks. All right. The first questions, we believe, giving the opportunities on the market, it was the best choice we could make. We believe that was the best decision we could make based on the information we have provided until yesterday. That was, that is our decision, our opinion about that. Second point, we believe that the existing management will perform well. If everything is proven that it doesn't go well or I don't know what can happen, then we will sit together and find a solution for that. Today, we believe in the CEO and in the current management. The third one, I can only repeat myself here, but maybe Leiv, you have another information to that question regarding the governance. Yeah, maybe it's helpful to hear your view on Transcendum's governance and which part you want to see improvement in. Maybe not for this call, but I would think it's quite representative of the rest of the people on it. Their view of where Castellum is going, given the number of CFOs it's got through over the past few months. Right. Maybe I could relate them, and we can move on to the next question. The next question comes from Osman Alraki from Fidelity International. Osman, please go ahead. Your line is open. Okay. Hi. Thank you, guys, and thanks for taking my question. I just had actually one just on your hybrids. Given the fact that you know, you're being opportunistic and probably that the market will offer other opportunities, you know, later this year and next year, how do you look at, I mean, would you favor a you know, an acquisition or over keeping liquidity, for example, to call your hybrids in 2023? How do you think about that? I think we, like Castellum, we believe that there is in many cases the same buyers of hybrids as the senior credits. It is not beneficial for us to lose with those. We will try to keep them happy. That's the take. I can't give an answer on whether we will call it. Now, I would guess that After the first quarter. Okay. I'm attempting to check here that the line is not very good. Just, you know, given the fact that the hybrid market is completely closed at the moment, you know, keeping liquidity could be the right call. I agree. Okay. Thank you. The next question is from Peter Yu at Wellington. Peter, please go ahead. All right. Just got two questions. Maybe we've got with the first one. So it feels like you haven't really had any conversations yet with the other board members and major owners yet. You've touched on that a bit, but if you do have major differences in opinion with the other owners. Yes, you have the largest stake at 12%, but it's still only 12%, and it's not a controlling stake. So I guess what gives you confidence you can influence outcomes in the company? If there are disagreements, how do you think you can deal with it? We are in contact with the board of Castellum. We are in contact with the CEO of Castellum. The news came out yesterday, so it's very early, but we are already scheduled for a meeting with the board. We are going to meet probably very soon with them. How are we going to implement our suggestions? Well, that's a good question. I mean, best case they are just so good that they cannot deny that. Let's see how this will turn out. I mean, we will discuss with the other major stakeholders their interest, our interest to find a common sense. In best case, we have the same direction as Castellum. That's very early to answer that. Yeah. Okay. On the financial policies to remain an investment grade company. We don't have any disagreement on the financial setup. Okay. I guess sort of linked to my second question is if it turns out that actually you're kind of stuck in a 12% position, but it's very hard to make, you know, actual operational control, would that influence your division to potentially think of exiting the stake later on? Linked to it is, as a financial investment, how do you think about a target return? You know, again, how are you thinking about a good outcome exit in addition to potentially a bad outcome exit? First of all, when we did the transaction yesterday, we are fully aware that we don't have the operational control, that we don't have the majority of the Castellum shares. We are fully aware of that, and we did the investment, right? We mentioned multiple times today that in the first place it is considered as a financial investment that we believe that the company runs very well. We believe in the management. All that has been said and the fact that we don't have operational control is known and it's nothing new to that. We also mentioned that we help the company keeping and hopefully improving the rating. Regarding exit or return requirements, yield requirements, we also mentioned today that we think it is some kind of midterm investment based on the information we have today. Then we will see how and where we can improve and help to improve Castellum's performance. It's too early to say when we might exit or what return requirements we have given the current economic environment. Some of our peers or your experts predict the future. It's always very hard to do so. Very difficult to answer the question, but we are aware that we don't have operational control. We see it as midterm investment based on the information today. Let's see how and where it develops. We believe that Castellum has a strong performance shown and will deliver a strong performance going forward. Okay. I mean, just put it another way is normally, you know, if you make an investment, you probably have an upside case, a base case and a downside case. How have you guys thought about that this name in terms of, you know, how things might play out? At what point you might potentially the good case walk away, bad case walk away? Yeah, yeah. What we did was actually to see the company and we tested different aspects, right? The market and also which might affect the company. So on. Then of course we also had more like what the return will be if things get better from now on. I don't want to give you the return that we expect to have on the investment. I can give you that we are happy to with the current deal of 7% I believe it is. That this helps all at least within the operating results in the case. Okay, cool. No, that's great. Thank you. Next question comes from Nicholas Vargas Ramirez from Bain Capital Partners. Nicholas, please go ahead. Your line is open. Hello, thanks, for taking my call. I just wanted to See if you guys could tell us for how long have you been looking into Castellum? Around when was this deal proposed? My second question was, we know the reasons for the sale of Castellum, the liquidity needs from M2. Did they propose or were you interested in buying any of their other assets, Sagax, Corem? Did you look at them? Were they of any interest to you? We only discussed and looked at the shares of Castellum. That was on the table that we discussed, and we negotiated about that. For how long was this deal negotiated for? We always look at good opportunities on the market, as we explained earlier today. We have a close ear to the market. We follow the share prices. We look into different options we could acquire or could come on the table, where we could make an offer. That's basically, I think all we would like to answer that question. I can ask you. Maybe I can add a little bit. Castellum is old and relatively large company in the industry market, and so has Akelius been. Of course, we have followed Castellum closely during those years. We also know some of the management and also some of the board members since before. It's also like a feeling about the company. I don't know. I can add that to The next question comes from Lars Løkvedt from Nordea. Lars, please go ahead. Yeah. Hi. Just a quick question. Castellum is a large owner in the Norwegian company Entra, which is a financial asset on their balance sheet. Is that something you've been taking into consideration in this, when considering this transaction? Yes. Yeah. We were fully aware of their share of Entra. Good. Well, unless you wanna elaborate, I don't have any further questions. I mean, one thing we mentioned that what we like at Castellum can be a good contribution to Akelius's portfolio is the additional diversification asset class, but also geographically and from the currency perspective. That played also one role for our decision yesterday. Yes. Mm-hmm. Thank you. We have a follow-up from Donald Phillips of Liontrust. Donald, please go ahead. Thank you. Does the Castellum own any options on the stock to perhaps take it back at some point in the future? No. Can I ask just a more general question just on availability of finance? I know you mentioned and we know that Castellum didn't have anything, any immediate needs, but just in terms of availability of finance from Swedish banks, could you talk a little bit in general terms on availability of, on unsecured? What kind of spreads you would expect if you did have to refinance something in the near future? If there's nothing available on unsecured, what kind of spreads are you looking out for secured at this time? You mean on behalf of Castellum? Well, just more general terms. You know, just how obviously the base rates have increased, but just in terms of the spreads on the funding. Last time I spoke with the Castellum on this subject, they were very sanguine. The spreads haven't moved at all. I'm just wondering if it would be your experience that spreads on bank funding remain as the same place as they were, say, two months ago. My personal feeling, we haven't looked into financing for a while because we have so much liquidity. I would expect that the credit margin even in the best case improve a bit, but not just at the market. Almost always available. It's like bread and butter in the market and if you have good properties you always get good funding from the covered market. It can be the covered bonds in Sweden, it could be the covered bonds in Denmark. Now we don't have any properties in Germany, but it's the same with the mortgage loan in Germany. They are almost always available. I wish that the Eurobond market was always available too. This is a point I've been discussing with Castellum. Eurobond market has been closed for a long time. The fact that a dividend is even on the table is preposterous to me. You know, I've been interested in your comments throughout. You've been talking about dividend yield, and I'm amazed that you're not telling us that the first point you raise when you meet the board is that any dividend should be scrapped. I don't know what payment schedules are ahead. I'm not familiar with that. The idea that this business with the Eurobond market completely closed would be even thinking about a dividend is kind of a little bit mind-blowing, to be honest. I just put that down as an observation. Yes, I agree with you. If the current rating level is under pressure or becomes more under pressure and dividend might be like in question, and especially if no other measures been taken, I think it might be so that it's good to keep the dividend even in the weaker markets. Only if the capital structure gets improvements from other in other ways, for example, selling assets or an increase in thank you. We also have a follow-up from Pranava Boyidapu from Barclays. Pranava, please go ahead. Thank you for having me on again. If I could go back to your answer on hybrid debt. I understand you can't say a lot about it, but have you had discussions with S&P already in terms of what options you have? Because I understand you have had a major business transformation since the hybrids were, you know, first issued. Are you then able to have more flex in terms of reducing it without actually accessing the market again? At this point, we have really processed as much hybrid as we can without losing any equity funds on the instrument. All the outstanding hybrids will then be treated as any other hybrid in that sense? Yes. If we buy more bonds, buy back more hybrid bonds, then we will lose the equity content on current and maybe a few hybrids. Understood. Thank you. We have no further questions in the queue, so I'll hand back to the management team for any concluding remarks. Thank you. In summary, one of you raised the question why we have that call. I must say, given the number of participants and the amount of questions, I think that answers the question why we have that call. Please take away that this investment is only 4% of Akelius liquidity. Very low risk given the price and the discount. We stress-test the investment, which gives room for further market developments. We have acquired 12% of one of the best real estate companies in Scandinavia. Plus, that investment will give another extra EUR 80 million on EBITDA for the Akelius business, which improves our EBITDA significantly in the coming months and years. That is my recommendation for you to take away. Leiv, would you like to add something? No, I think that's covered. Perfect. Thanks a lot, Ralf and Leiv for taking all the questions and the presentation. So with that, thank you and have a great weekend all. If any additional questions, you're always welcome to reach out, and we'll try to answer those. Thank you for your attendance. This does conclude today's call. You may now disconnect your lines.