Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the year-end report presentation for the Holmen Group. We are again the usual suspects from the Holmen side. It is myself, Henrik Sjölund, CEO, and Mr. Anders Jernhall, CFO of the group. We will guide you through the presentation, and after that, we are happy to take any questions you might have. This has been a quite strange year. Everybody has been affected by the pandemic we have had. Now when we are standing here, and we can summarize what has happened, we can say that we came out through the year in a good way, and an operating profit for the whole year, which is close to SEK 2.5 billion, which is a good result, partly thanks to better efficiency within paperboard. We also had a lot of headwind when it comes to our paper business, and later during the year, we also had quite big help from increasing prices for our wood products. We also ended the year in a fairly good way, and again, with help from really good prices from wood products, and despite that we had a quite big maintenance stop at Iggesund Mill, which we carried out, by the way, in a really good way. We ended up the year earning SEK 595 million. Also in the fourth quarter, we had a very tough situation when it comes to paper, and especially the prices were under a bit of pressure, which we'll come back to. If we go back a little bit and summarize what has happened during the year, it's clear that also we in the beginning of the year, and especially during the springtime, we didn't know what to expect. We only knew we had a new situation with the pandemic. We thought for a while that maybe we can't keep our business going. We didn't know whether we could keep our mills running, et cetera. After a while, we saw that things will not be that bad. Still, we were a bit afraid because there was a lot of insecurity. We decided not to give dividend first, and a bit later, after having taken measures like postponed investments to some extent, secured long-term financing, and also we made sure that all people we have could go to the work in a fairly safe way. We also carried out a couple of really big maintenance shifts, which included hundreds of people, where, of course, we were quite scared that this could go wrong, especially in the middle of the pandemic. It worked out fine. Now at the end of the year or beginning of the next year, we are standing here and looking at a good result in 2020, much better than we expected for a while. We came to the conclusion last year that we could give dividend of half what we planned from the beginning. Now when we look forward and we see what result we had in 2020 and also the financial situation we have, which is strong, despite that we have also acquired the Martinsons group. We had a discussion today in the board of directors and came to the decision to propose to the annual general meeting to decide about an ordinary dividend for 2020 of SEK 7.25 per share, but also an extra dividend of SEK 3.50. Moving on to our Forest. I said last time when we had a quarterly report that we saw some imbalance in the wood market. That situation came from quite high demand for sawlogs, not the same demand for pulpwood. Sawmills have been running full, I would say all throughout the year since late spring or the summertime. We still see a really high demand for sawlogs in the market. The paper business has been a bit tougher. We know from our own mills that we have not been running full, but also some other ones which have not been running full. We also see from some neighboring markets that it's difficult to run even the sawmills because it's tough to get rid of or to sell the pulpwood that comes with the harvest when you go for the sawlogs. The market has stabilized. We don't see the same imbalance as before or is about to stabilize. The situation in the wood market is a bit better. Anders, it's also nice to see that still there is a lot of people who think it's nice to own forest, and they are prepared to pay more. Yes. We've seen a great interest the recent years, especially the recent year in acquiring forest assets. As you are all aware, we last year introduced the new accounting methodology where we book the forest assets based on assessment of the market value of it, based on the forest transactions in the areas in Sweden where we have our forests. At the end, we made an update of this valuation, and it's based on the three last year's transaction prices in those areas where we have forests. That meant that we increased the value by 5%, up to SEK 43 billion. This is an increase of close to SEK 2 billion. SEK 600 million of that increase is by the accounting recommendations to be going through the P&L, whilst the rest is actually not passing P&L. It's a profit that actually goes straightly to equity. If we take the next slide, the full year result of SEK 1,367 million for the forest division, almost SEK 600 million of that profit is due to the change in value of the trees, you can say, and the rest is cash flow from the Forest activities. The increase compared to a year ago in profitability is due to this new accounting methodology. Looking at the quarter, we have a pretty normal result for the forest division, just north of SEK 330 million. Back to you, Henrik. Thank you very much. Moving on to Paperboard. Also here, in the beginning of the pandemic, we didn't really know what to expect, but quite soon we found out that people do spend money and buy things that need packaging. When we look at the demand situation in Europe during last year and where we are today, we have a slight increase. Not big, but a slight increase, which is nice. Also when it comes to our own performance in terms of deliveries, we said a couple of years ago, we should reach a running rate of 550. It has taken some time. It has been some bumps, I would say, on the road, on the way. Looking at where we are today, that's roughly what we deliver at the current state, and we have now a 12-month running level of roughly 550. It's also nice to see that the investments we have made lately, we spent quite a lot of money, especially at the Iggesund mill. It actually pays off, and when we look at the mill today, we see that there is higher efficiency. Well done by our people. As I said, the targeted CapEx we have spent has especially lowered the cost, and maybe not so much production capacity, but hopefully that is soon to be also materialized. This has also an impact on our profitability, Anders. Definitely. The investments that have been targeted to the pulp mill have had a very positive impact on our production cost, as Henrik mentioned. That's the main driver behind us coming back to a profit level where we should be in this business. We have also, despite the pandemic, seen a very good development of the product mix that we have benefited from. As Henrik mentioned, we were able to increase volumes, which added positively to the result for the full year. Looking at the quarter, it's of course a decline compared to the very high level last quarter. This quarter, we had a big maintenance stop, well executed, as Henrik said. We're somewhat balanced by a bonus revenue for the green electricity that we produce in Workington of roughly SEK 40 million. The underlying result in the Q3, if we take out the bonus revenue and the stop, is SEK 230 million, and I of course mean the Q4 results. It's the first time we are standing here, and we are happy to say that we had the maintenance shut that cost SEK 110, isn't it? Yes. As we have mentioned, we have two major main upcoming this year. One in Workington in Q2 and another one in Iggesunds in Q3 that together is expected to cost us roughly SEK 250 million. Yes. Thank you. Moving on to Paper. As I said in the beginning, in Paper, we really had headwind, and you can see from the slide that demand development has been really harsh. It's tough to be in this business. It's 20% drop in paper consumption. As we speak, prices are under pressure, which is also seen from the chart we have here. On the other hand, we have some products which are doing better than the market. As a player in this segment, of course, we're also affected by the general development, especially when it comes to demand. We have our products based on the virgin fibers, and we try to produce products where it really makes sense, and we do compete with especially recycled fibers in some segments, not in all. There in the market, we see now big changes when it comes to fiber supply to different regions in the world. It's too early to draw any conclusions yet, but if you look at the prices right now, actually, it's even tougher in Europe than in Asia, where there is a lack of fiber, and we will see where that will take us. In our case, we have been really keen on not building stock during this time. We have also taken market-related downtime as the rest, I would say, in this market. Even though we are producing a little bit and delivering slightly better than the last two quarters, we are far from running full, which is also seen in the result. Of course. If you can't run full, it's difficult to get a good result in this business. We have lost more than SEK 400 million in profitability compared to last year. Two-thirds is due to declining prices, and one-third is due to us not being able to run the mills full. Q4 was turned into a loss-making quarter. We had some extra maintenance stop in Q4 that burdened the result. I think you should look at Q4, Q3, Q2 together to see. In these market conditions that prevailed during 2020, we were around at a zero EBIT level, but clearly positive EBITDA level. Correct. Thank you. Moving on to something which I would say is a little bit easier to handle today, wood products. We have upgraded our total production capacity from 1.5 to 1.6 million cubic meters. What we have done, of course, is that we have grown organically through the ramp-up and the investments we have done at Braviken. It's not too long ago, and we said we will be adding 150,000 cu m, and we are on our way to do that. It's the acquisition of Martinsons, which is a rather big step, and I think for us as a company, also a very important step in the right direction. Looking at what we have now, we have five sawmills, and in all of these sawmills, I would say especially maybe at Braviken, but we have a program for the Iggesund sawmill. We'll see where that will take us, but a good mix, and also a good mix of products going forward, because what we did when we acquired Martinsons is also that we broadened our product offering, especially with cross-laminated timber, glue-laminated beams, and also some exterior panels. That together with what we already had, gives us also a better offering towards the builder merchant segment in the business. What we discuss mostly, of course, these days, Anders, that's the price. We have been in this business for a long time, we know that the prices, when they go up too much, they soon go down again. This time it will be totally different. Of course. What we have seen lately, it's not only that it's good demand, because the demand is good, but it's not good in all parts of the world, especially the do-it-yourself sector is doing well. We see a lot of new starts in North America. We also have the supply side of the business, which is lower than normal when prices are like they are right now. We see Canada not coming up in production levels like we thought they would, and we also see sawmills in Russia, Baltic states, et cetera, where they simply cannot get rid of the pulpwood, which means that they have to restrict a little bit the volumes they produce out of the sawlogs. It's a situation where especially spruce is doing fantastically well, which is also seen in the result. Yes, definitely it's seen in the result. Full year result was clearly higher than last year. Last year was a bit lackluster. We have seen higher prices throughout the year. Actually log costs, if you look year-over-year, are at on a lower level still, but they are on the rise. Q4 was a fantastic result, SEK 70 million higher than the previous quarter, which was a good result in itself. It's driven, of course, by price increases. We have a fair contribution from actually ramping up the Braviken sawmill. The add on on revenue, as you can see in the graph, you actually have SEK 100 million in organic growth in the Q4 based on the ramping up our own facilities. As Henrik says, we have potential to ramp up actually at all five sawmills. In the Q4 result, of course, the acquisition of Martinsons added positively to the result. Moving on to renewable energy. Here we've been standing the last few quarters, and we said that it's not of so much interest because the electricity prices are in general low, which means that we do not earn as much money as we would have liked to when it comes to our hydro and wind power. The last few days I've been in media and said the prices are far too high. How can we draw a conclusion from that, Anders? Are you telling the truth, Henrik? Yeah. No, it has been a strange year. The full year 2020, there was abundant supply of hydropower at the same time as consumption was lower than normal, partly due to COVID situation. Then we had the added effect in that the Nordic system didn't really work the way it should due to problems with the cables. That has pushed down the prices for electricity for the better part of 2020. Since just the days after Christmas, this ample supply of hydropower has turned into a maybe more normal situation, and that we have had cold weather. So we are back to a normal situation where the Swedish electricity prices are determined by the fossil fuel costs. If we take the next slide, 2020, when we look backward, we were negatively affected by the low prices in the Nordics for the hydropower division. If you take out the one-off positive effect we had last year, the profit went down by SEK 40 million year-over-year, and that's due to lower prices despite a high production level. Q4, we did not experience the normal upturn in profitability. It was quite a muted result in Q4 due to the low prices. As you mentioned, the situation has changed quite dramatically now in Q1, where prices have gone up a lot. Yes. Which is a different question. In Sweden, we have an energy system which is fossil-free. If you look at the situation in the rest of the world or in Europe as such, it's not the case. One can't help thinking of the decisions now being taken by the European politicians to increase the ambition a lot when it comes to how to decarbonize Europe, where the aim now is to reduce CO2 emissions, where the base year is 1990 to 2030 by 55%, coming from 40%. Looking at the mix and thinking about the future, it's quite clear that over time, if we are going to get even close to achieving those targets, it will be more costly to emit fossil CO2. I think it's a rather good idea to actually be close to, for example, in our case, when it comes to wood products, close to products like concrete and steel when they have to pay for the real climate cost, most probably the prices will go up. Another thing which makes sense for us to think about is also, regardless how this is going to be made, we will need in Europe a lot more of green electricity. As we see, part of the solution is definitely to decarbonize through electrification. Many people also think about, especially in Europe, and European politicians point at hydrogen as part of the solution. Hydrogen, to make sense over time, means a need of green electricity. Maybe it will be natural gas over a number of years to make it realistic, but over time, we will need a lot more green electricity. Again, for a company like us, I think it's more a question of timing when it makes sense to actually make use of the potential we have to expand when it comes to green electricity. In our case, it's wind power. Same goes, I think, for wood products to be close to concrete and steel and to, in that case, more follow the cost for those products. We cannot save the world by producing houses and homes out of the wood, but I think it could be a rather nice ride. Looking at our company, we are a climate positive company. We are soon to finish our yearly report for 2020, where you, among other things, can read about our climate benefits, where we store a lot of carbon in our growing forests. That's no news. We also store and especially we substitute, the substitution effects from the products coming from the forest is rather big. We have acquired Martinsons that adds on to wood and wood products. Wood products both store carbon in buildings, and they also substitute other products like concrete and steel, which we talked about before. Also paper and paper board makes some sense, even though it's slightly different than wood products. It's more that it actually replaces fossil fuels in a bio boiler somewhere. We also have, of course, the positive effects from our hydropower and our increasing wind power. As we have cables to other countries as well, most of what we produce, if it's not consumed in Sweden, it will substitute coal-fired boilers or energy or gas in other countries. We do have some fossil emissions also in our industry, even though we work hard to reduce, and we have reduced our emissions by roughly 85% during the last 10 years, which gives us a quite impressive figure of 6 million tons in the case of Holmen of positive climate benefits. That actually concludes our presentation in a slightly different way than we usually do, but I think this makes sense because it's about sustainability in the long run, and we have to start thinking how to materialize on that when we go forward. With that, we're happy to take any questions you might have. Thank you. If you wish to ask an audio question, you may do so by pressing zero one on your telephone keypad. If you wish to withdraw your question, you may do so by pressing zero two to cancel. Once again, please press zero one on your telephone keypad if you wish to ask an audio question. Our first question comes from Johannes Grunselius from Kepler Cheuvreux. Please go ahead with your question. Yes, hello, it's Johannes Grunselius here. Hope you can hear me. Please go on. Can you hear me? Yes, we can hear you. Okay, great. Yeah, I was wondering about electricity because we all seen that prices have spiked and you, Henrik, actually said something about this in the daily press. Could you remind us about, of the 3,700 or so electricity consumption you have in terms of gigawatts? How much of that is Holmen Paper, and can you give us an update on how much you are hedging, and also on the electricity you are producing yourself? How should we see that? Are you selling that on long contracts and so on? You are lucky we have the expert here. 90% of our consumption is within the paper division. We have hedged two-thirds of our exposure for this year and next year, and to slight degree the year thereafter. The electricity we produce internally, two-thirds of that, or that we produce and sell externally, two-thirds of that we have hedged against the paper division. One-third of the energy division's exposure is to spot prices. Yes. It sounded quite dramatic what you said in Dagens Industri, that you have shut down a paper production because the hedging should offset this short-term volatility, right? How are you thinking there? No, it does not to the full extent. It doesn't make sense to try to hedge all the consumption we have. I think the big thing is when it comes to the electricity price and running process industry, and in this case, electricity intensive industry, that industry is not made for running it with one hand on the handbrake. When you have too many spikes, too often, and you have to reduce or stop the production, sooner or later, that costs money. Yeah. Are you able to run the paper business in a flexible way here and have control over variable and fixed costs, or is this impacting your operations right now to a bigger extent? Yeah, it does have an impact. Every time you have to take a shut, you will incur extra costs. When the prices are that high as they are during peak hours, only the electricity cost for producing the paper exceeds the revenues from selling the paper. You can't produce on those hours. It's an easy decision. Yeah. To try to stop during these hours. We are becoming experts in starting and stopping, of course, but that's not the idea with process industry. Okay, I have a second question, and that's on the new forestry value. I think I read in your fourth quarter report, and compare that to the annual report that the net growth of the forest, standing forestry is just below 1%. Am I right there? The main uplift is coming from market prices and not the net growth. Can you comment on that? Yeah. It is based on market prices, the bulk of the uplift in value. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you. Our next question comes from Robin Santavirta from Carnegie. Please go ahead. Yes, good afternoon. Regarding the paper division, what is the price outlook now when you go into 2021? Could you also shed some light on the time span, maybe the average time span you have on the price agreement so we get an idea sort of when we look at market prices and your price development? When it comes to pricing, we do business every day. You saw the statistics that I think that gives a pretty good idea roughly of what has happened when it comes to price decreases, because they are a bit lower now. We are also currently negotiating prices. It's also quite a big difference between different product segments, one should remember. When it comes to how long contracts do we do, well, in a situation like this, we try not to do yearly contracts or long contracts. We try to keep the door open for new business as the year proceeds. As we don't know what will happen, that's a bit of speculating, of course. All right. Thanks. I hear what you say, Henrik, about prices, about cost of production in the paper business, and about demand. Now it seems even more rational to do something with your capacity. Anything you're looking at the moment related to the capacity or conversion or shutdown or something like that? No, it's not. If you look at the level we are running our business currently, you see that we do take quite a lot of production curtailment as well in order to keep our inventories on a healthy level, et cetera, and then to follow what will happen in the market and work on what we have and what we believe is our comparative advantages when we do the business. No, we have no ideas to close down capacity at the moment. All right. Thanks. Then a final one on the energy part that certainly looks quite attractive longer term and even this. Could you just give an update on the projects you have going on, Blåbergsliden? Some other ones. Could you also provide an update about the production cost of a wind farm, for example, in Blåbergsliden per megawatt hour? That project is running well according to time plan and according to budget. We expect the first electricity to start producing after this summer and fully producing in the fourth quarter. Nothing has changed in terms of the cost of production. We are working on permits for other projects. As Henrik said, it takes time to get environmental permits in Sweden, so it takes some time. Not only in Sweden. Around the ballpark production cost, what is it? Is it SEK 100 per megawatt hour or? You think about the variable cost? Yes. If you include grid connection, et cetera. Yeah, that's where the ballpark figure is. All right, thanks. That's it. Thank you. Our next question comes from Christian Kopfer from Nordea. Please go ahead. Okay, it appears Christian has dropped out by accident. Our next question comes from Linus Larsson from SEB. Please go ahead. Thank you very much, and a good day to everyone. You had a strong result in paper board, like you said, in spite of the maintenance stop. Just bridging into the first quarter, if you could just spend a minute more on that. The bonus payments in the U.K., they drop out to zero in the first quarter. Is that rightly understood? Also on the maintenance guidance for the full year, why so high? Why would it be SEK 250 million? It sounds higher than you normally would have, even though you had two stops in 2021. Should I start with the market situation quickly? When it comes to paperboard, first of all, I didn't mention perhaps, but our order books are fine, and prices are stable. Then? The bonus, yeah. This is an exercise that is done in the U.K. every fourth quarter. It's happening every time. It can be zero. It can be 70. It can be 40. We will not have any bonus in the first quarter. The maintenance, it's actually the Workington maintenance shut that is, as you point out, it's much bigger than we normally have. It's because we have to do an inspection on the boiler. That is the first inspection we have done since we started up the boiler that is of this scale. It's eight years ago. We have to take down the boiler for more than a month. That's the reason for the hefty maintenance cost in Q2. It's attached with a bit more of an insecurity on that number than we normally have in our maintenance costs. We don't close down the whole mill for a month? No, but the boiler. I see. If you break that down, the Iggesund and the Workington stops respectively? They are about the same size. Okay. All right. Okay. Just on the bonus payment in the U.K., could you please remind us how big that was a year ago in the fourth quarter 2019? Roughly the same. SEK 40 million is the normal value of that bonus. That's what the government is aiming at, but they don't always succeed. That's a normal value. It's a quasi-market political-based system. Exactly. Great. Just one more question, if I may. The wood product division had a very strong fourth quarter. Just to understand the various parts on an EBIT level, how much did Martinsons contribute to it? Roughly SEK 30 million. Okay. How is that business developing? I understand it's very different from the other parts of wood products that you own from before. It's not as volatile as what we do at Braviken, for example. It normally a little bit more stable over time. As you go into 2021, that should be relatively stable, you think? The Martinsons business is much more based on sales in Sweden, more wholesales-That have a more stable pricing picture than the production we have, especially down in the southern part of Sweden. As you can read out from our figures, the margin is lower on Martinsons than on the remaining, the old timber business, but it's a more stable level. We just bought it. We need to learn a little bit as well. Sure. Thanks. That's very helpful. Thank you. Thank you. Our next question comes from Christian Kopfer from Nordea. Please go ahead. Yeah, thanks, operator. Just a few follow-ups from my side. Firstly, it's on the forest valuation side, one of your competitors, I don't think I need to say who it was, and I don't know if you can comment so much about it. It's just that it seems like they took up the forest value per cubic meter much more than what you did. Just, I don't know if you can comment anything on the market trends, if you have been a bit conservative on your valuation or something like that. I can only speak for ourselves. We base it on the market prices in the areas where we have our forests, and it's not completely the same composition as our peers have. We might have a slightly different composition in price development. Right. On the wind power project, I know that you previously, if you look at the project Blisterliden, I think previously you thought that you expected environmental permit by the end of 2020, and it seems a little bit delayed. Do you have any? I can start. guess on when you expect the permit? It will not be as bad as a nuclear reactor in Finland, I can promise. No, you're right, it's a bit delayed, and if we knew, we would tell you. If this year, late this year. We don't expect to get it to take an investment decision this year on that wind farm. We will not manage that. Right. If you look a little bit more longer term on the wind projects, is it fair to say that you will probably focus more on projects in the southern parts of the country because electricity prices are typically higher? Do you have any news on those, how those projects are progressing? You are right in the sense that as things are today in Sweden, we are a bit concerned about the transmission capacity between north and south, even though I know a lot of people are working on that. For us, it makes sense, yes. Also to make use of all the land we have in the south and try to realize a rather big wind farm or farms down south. It's the same there. Its environmental permit is a very important part of it. We are working on potential wind farms, but we have not applied for a permit as we speak. We have ideas. Right. Yep. In Östersjötrafik, right? Yep. Finally for me, we can clearly see that pulp prices are coming up steeply. Just wondering if you could see some upward price pressure on paperboard? You said, Henrik, that you see the prices are stable, in general, would that be positive, or would you just see the increased pulp price as more neutral on the paperboard market? No, that's in general positive, I would say. Please remember. Okay. The paperboard prices hardly move. No. It takes years for them to move. Right. Christian, you know that a number of producers are not fully integrated. They have to buy the chemical pulp, and when the pulp price goes up, costs go up, and it's not so much room for at least price decreases then. That way, indirectly, I think it's good news if pulp prices move up a bit. Yep. Agree on that. Okay. Thank you very much, guys. Thank you. Thank you. Our next question comes from Martin Melbye from ABG. Please go ahead. Thank you. Regarding the sawmilling business, what kind of price change do you see in Q1 quarter-over-quarter? SCA was talking about 10%. Is that right? It's quite a big difference between spruce and pine right now, but at least prices are moving up. Recall that we have had a very strong pricing momentum, as you see from the graph, so historically strong pricing movement towards the end of 2020. Maybe you saw from the graph that it quite a big difference between spruce and pine as well. We don't know where it's going. One question about the CO2 effect. You have 6.4 million tons of CO2. I can see that you benefit indirectly via product substitution effects, but do you benefit in a direct way in any way from surplus allowance sales, et cetera? Yes, but that's a small thing. We hardly emit any fossil fuels when we produce our products, and we do receive a free allotment from the EU based on the best-in-class level, and we have excess CO2 allowances that we sell on the market. There is a new regime starting 2021, where the allowances will be reduced, but we don't know by how much until this summer. Okay. Could that be a meaningful number, or is it flat given the price increase? It's difficult. Probably flat, I would say. Best guess. Thank you. Thank you. Our next question comes from Oskar Lindström from Danske Bank. Please go ahead. Yes. I have three sets of questions, and I thought I'd start off with maybe the easier ones, and we take the more difficult ones towards the end, if that's fine with you. The first set of questions is on the wood product side. You mentioned Martinsons here and that you just bought it, and that you said you need to learn that business. What kind of synergies can we expect from this acquisition, and when should we expect to see those synergies? That was my first question. I think you should remember that we bought a very nice company, good, well-run company. There aren't that much of synergies. What we do see is that some of the products Martinsons produced, now us, together what we had and what we have been building up when it comes to investments we've done, for example, at Braviken. That combination could perhaps, over time, give us some better market share, for example, in the Nordic countries. It's no big things when it comes to that part. Maybe I can add that the major synergy is that we actually use our own timber in these sawmills. Absolutely. Which enables us over time to develop the sawmills to their full potential, because we have a better ability to supply them with the timber where they can add most value in the production process. It takes time, a number of years, to realize that full potential of the sawmills. Thank you. That's what I was thinking, mainly about the wood sourcing. Would you care to sort of put a number on that? What kind of value could that amount to if we look at it longer term? It's not possible to put a value. You have to recall that running sawmills, if you're really good at that's actually attention to details, nitty-gritty, that over time will create value. Yeah. Calculate the value on that. The position on the wood market. Yeah. As Anders says, has become stronger. Part of what we bought was not only sawmills and production units and building system, was also a forest organization, which we believe is crucial for us going forward, having good control of the raw material and also being able maybe to alter a little bit how we feed the sawmills. Absolutely. All right. My second question here is on forest valuation. We saw some transactions for corporate forest lands towards the end of last year at what seems very high valuation levels, a significant premium over the mainly private forest land transactions, which are the basis for your book valuation. What do you believe that premium is? Should there be one long term, or is this just something that we're seeing right now and this should come down? What's your view on that, on the premium for corporate forest lands over private forest lands? I think we should refrain from speculating how big the premium should be, but that there is a logic behind it, yes. It's difficult to buy bigger forest land. It takes time, it's cumbersome, it's quite costly. If you have the opportunity to buy a bigger plot of land, and that's often in a legal entity, it makes sense for you to pay a premium. If you're a really big forest owner, then you actually have the ability to add value, like establishing wind farms on your land that you as a small forest owner can't. There are arguments to support the case that larger forest land should be valued higher than smaller plots. Just taking that comment, I can understand it's difficult to know what the premium is, and I'm not sure, and that's why I'm asking you. I agree with you that there is probably some premium to large forest land holdings. Do you see any logic for incorporating that in setting your book value? Again, the book value is supposed to reflect the market value of forest land. You're correct, but you don't have statistical evidence on that. You can have an opinion on it, you can have view, but you can't support it by hard facts. That's why when we do our book valuations, we actually look at all the transactions that are in the areas where we have our forests and look purely at the transaction values, and we have not taken into account the factor if there is a legal entity or a private individual selling or buying. There's too few transactions. Right. To make that such conclusion and be confident about that conclusion. Fair enough. My final question is also on forestry. There's a bit of a renewed debate about biological diversity of forests and the impact of even sustainable commercial forestry on this and in the Nordic region. I realize this is not a black or white issue, but it's a scale. Do you believe this is a relevant debate? Are you, in your forestry, at the right point in that scale, or do you see a logic for you to shift a little bit going forward? No, I think if you look at what we do in the forest today, it's so different from, for example, 20, 30, 40 years ago, and also so much better and so much more sustainable. It has changed a lot. Also when you look at how we treat the forest and how we manage the forest, we also have to sometimes be able to lift and look at sustainability in a broader view. Yes, I know there are people who think that we shouldn't touch the forest at all. When we look at the climate effects of the forest, we see that it's clearly better to manage the forest because the substitution effect is quite much bigger than the having the forest as a carbon sink only growing, and over time it won't grow in any way more than to a certain level, and then you have a zero-sum game. We have a lot of programs where, and we also have a legislation in Sweden, and we have corporations, et cetera, where we follow. We are also certified according to PEFC and also FSC, and we follow that, of course, and we believe we do make use of the forest in a very sustainable way. There has always been different ideas what to do with the forest. We are convinced, based on facts and also our own experience, that it makes much more sense to manage the forest in the way we do. Don't forget to look at the substitutional effects, all the good that is coming from the products coming out of the forest. For example, houses and homes being built out of wood, subsidizing concrete and steel, also paper and paperboard to some extent replacing plastic, and finally becoming biofuel. Also when it comes to the forest, what do we do? We build wind farms on the land. It also makes sense. Well, yes, the forest should be managed rather more than less. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Our next question comes from Johannes Grunselius from Kepler Cheuvreux. Please go ahead with your question. Yes, hello again. Just want to come back to the paperboard division and the outlook. I understand you have very stable pricing outlook, but can you talk a little bit about the mix for Q1 and possibly other quarters when the market is now very strong? I can imagine you are selling more inside Europe and not so much to overseas market, and it's just having a positive effect on margins. Actually, paperboard is the odd man in this industry. First of all, pricing, as I would say, they're stable, which is unusual in our industry. The second, paperboard, at least the paperboard we sell travels well. We do have good margins on selling outside Europe because we have found those pockets that pay well. We don't have those kind of big shifts in our business. It's a bit boring, you can say. Shifting geography is minor as well. It's when we increase production. Okay. Of course, we look at where best to offset those new volumes. Referring back to our comment throughout this year that we have had a good product mix. We have changed the product mix to the better during the year, and the ambition is, of course, to sustain that improved product mix. To improve it further, that's a challenge. Where are you on operating rates, by the way? Your operating rate must be quite high now, or as you want to have it. I think if you look at, we are fully booked. We produce as much as we can. Okay. Yes. And then we can always hope for more, but that's efficiency. Yeah. Not operating rate in that sense. Okay. Good to know. I also have a question on CapEx. What do you foresee for this year? Perhaps you can also touch upon maybe 2022. Excluding our wind farms, it's at a normal level, which is around SEK 1 billion a year. That's sort of what we foresee in the coming years. You will always have delays and changes between the years. Relating to the wind farm, it's some SEK 800 million being paid this year. Okay. On paper, how's the order book situation there? How should one think about volumes playing out for the coming quarters? Is it possible for you to show any sort of growth as you see it now for this year compared to last year? Remember, in Paper, we are not running full. We do take production curtailments and market-related downtime. Yes, the aim is to run more full than we are right now, but where we will be, it's impossible to say at the current moment. Remember, paper is really affected by the pandemic. Of course. You showed an uplift in volumes in the fourth quarter in paper. Having said that, very easy comparables in Q3. Do you foresee to do more volumes in Q1 versus Q4? We hope so, but I cannot guarantee. Okay. Thank you very much. Remember that the paper business is very much affected by the lockdowns that still persists predominantly in Europe. It's like putting a wet blanket over the paper business. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. There appears to be no further questions registered, so I'll hand back to the speakers for any other remarks. No more questions? Sorry. Thank you very much for taking your time, especially as it's now almost 3:30 P.M. on a Friday afternoon. It's been good and interesting questions. Thank you, and have a nice weekend.