This is Mike Polark, Medical Device Analyst at Wolfe Research, and pleased to be joined in this session by Axonics CEO, Raymond Cohen, CFO, Kari Keese, and VP of Investor Relations in the audience, Neil Bhalodkar. Guys, thanks for being here. My pleasure, Mike. Look, the format is some Q&A, but I like to give folks an opportunity to set the stage, introduce Axonics, kind of state of the business. H ow things are going? Wow! So who is Axonics? How about that? What is your mission? That's a big picture question. We're focused on treating patients with incontinence. Whether you have a problem where you have great urgency and can't get to the bathroom in time, which is called urinary urge incontinence or overactive bladder, or particularly women who, you know, may have had a child, children and so forth, who leak when they cough, sneeze, pick up an object, exercise. We treat that with Bulkamid versus the other condition we're treating with. That's the business that we're in. We've got two main product lines and, you know, we're annualized now at a little over $400 million, and we're growing fast, and I dare say doing it profitably. Yes. It's been a remarkable journey. I would argue you've done everything you said you were gonna do, thus far. I'm sure the challenges of today look quite a bit different than the challenges of four, five years ago, of eight years ago. How do you spend your time today? Is it different than what you were doing five years ago? So I think that, you know, the company has gone through a number of different lives, right? And I think the key to success is that you have to focus on the process of what stage you're at, and not be thinking about what is this outcome that I want. I think that's where people, you know, sometimes mess up. So when we started, we were a design research company. That's what we did. We didn't. We weren't engineering anything. We were just learning about what it was like for patients to wear to have a neurostimulator in their body. We weren't just looking at InterStim or sacral neuromodulation, but also spinal cord stimulator and other products. We wanted to understand how the procedures were being done. We want to understand physicians like: Whatif you had to design a neurostimulator system from scratch, what would it do? How would it work? What are some of the things that you've seen that would be good ideas? We did that, then we moved into the engineering phase. We focused on developing world-class products that were easy to use, you know, and robust in terms of the quality and all the rest of it. We did that. Okay, now—Then we became a clinical company, and we focused 100% of our energy on running and executing two clinical studies, one in Europe, one in the United States, for FDA approval. That was the life that we led. Kari was there, we were all there, and that's what we did. Okay, now it's like: All right, well, we're- we went public without really any revenue or without FDA approval in October 31st, 2018. So that was a unique situation. And then we got approval, and we started to market November 2019. And then we had this strange little pandemic that disrupted the apple cart for a bit. And then we focused on, you know, making sure that we had, you know, the right assets, feet on the street, and hiring the sales force, training them up, getting out there and going and competing for the business. So it's been a journey, and it's been, like you said, very, very different along the way, and I think one needs to be flexible, but always focused on the process. What is the process we're focused on now? Driving growth in our existing accounts, bringing new accounts to the table, and doing it where we're not over our skis in terms of, you know, cost, right? We wanna do that and do that with some discipline so that we can get the business, but we can also get the business with the right kind of margin. So, you know, My life as founder and CEO of the company has changed a lot over the period of time, but I'm comfortable in the current environment, as I was earlier. And it's a lot more fun now, right? Right? 'Cause you get to see the fruits of your labor on a regular basis. So I spent a lot of time with customers before we had any, or potential customers before we had any, but I seem to spend more time now with competitive accounts and customers who now come to visit us. Because they're really curious about what are we up to? How do we do what we do? Why are we so innovative? The fact that we manufacture our products in the United States of America, in Irvine, California. They've never seen anything like that before, right? So they're so it's, it changes, but in the end of the day, you know, look, we have 800 people today. You know, it's a lot different than when we started. So there's, you know, there's more of that, that we have to deal with, and, you know, we all have, you know, a bigger department, and so on, so forth. A lot more beans to count for Kari and all the rest of it. And, so I can go on, and on, and on. Yeah. It's a really interesting question, but I think the key thing is you, you've got to be able to morph the focus of the organization and the focus of the leadership team to the issues of the day, you know? And, that, that's the best answer. Yeah, fair. I want to ask about the commercial priorities. I mean, you've stated very clearly for years now, you want to be the leader in this market, which you've defined as half of the market, 50% market share or more. I'd argue, thematically, you've earned it, you've led on the product side, you've led on the awareness side, you've led on the training side. Mathematically, you still don't have the 50%, and so I asked this question on the public call. I think, I'll ask it again, 'cause it's how I've, you know, what I've been thinking about. Kind of, what are the traits of the 60% or 65% of the market that's not with Axonics? And how do you kind of, you know, work those folks into, into your camp? 'Cause you've been clear, you know, the word is out, Axonics has the goods. I think we're all hearing that, we're all seeing it. The question is now, how does it—how do you get it to convert to the numbers? 'Cause you have a large competitor, and, you know, they are doing their best to kind of keep their business going and, you know, just curious what the kind of tensions or opportunities are here. So there's really not much of a difference between the person who hasn't converted versus the one. You know what I mean? Like, the ones that have converted. I think initially, you know, in those first 3.5 months prior to the pandemic, I think it was the technology, right? In other words, the idea of an MRI-compatible long-lived device, ours was rechargeable, it was different. That really captured the attention of a lot of folks right away, and then things have, you know, kind of, say, settled a bit from that coming out of the pandemic. So it's really about giving us the opportunity to make the distinctions between what we offer and what they talk about. If we don't have a chance to have a conversation about that, then we can't convert. That's really been the key. So there's nothing uniquely different about these customers who haven't come our way yet. It's just that they—we haven't had the chance to undo the propaganda yet, which is part of the reason we wanna bring them into the home office, because I can dispel all the nonsense that they've heard over the years. You You know, "Oh, we're a small company, we're not gonna be around, da, da, da, da, da." You know, all, all the kind of negative. So, it's just, that's why Bulkamid has been such a big deal for us, Mike, because it gave us a chance to get into some of these accounts with a really great product that's really helpful for them and their practices, and, and get a chance to get an opportunity to learn. I don't know, Kari, if you, is there anything that you wanted to add to that? I mean, I'd say we're breaking a 20-25-year legacy there. Right. But it takes time. I think we've done quite well in the years that we have been here, but it'll just take time to convert more of those accounts. Yeah. And, and I think this is a really good point, and I'm glad you added that. I mean, these guys had a monopoly for over two decades. There was no other game in town. They didn't know any better. They didn't know... there was no- nothing else, and, and the product just didn't work that well. It was perceived, it was- wasn't-- didn't last long, wasn't MRI-compatible, and didn't work that well. So sacral neuromodulation has been perceived, but as a therapy of last resort. We've had to overcome that and say: "No, no, no, this is a new day. There's a renaissance here. This is new technology. We have devices that are MRI-compatible, and they're gonna last 20 years in the body, and patients have high levels of satisfaction." Well, it takes time, right, to, to do that. I think back to your kind of question, it's just gonna take a little more time. Yep To get where we need to go, I don't see anything that there's some weird barrier in between that's holding people back. I just think it's just the opportunity to have those conversations. This is back, once again, why it's so valuable for us to get them to come to see us, get them out of their office, you know, get on a plane, you know, fly over on a, on a Thursday night, spend a Friday with us, and they take one day out of the practice, right? And they walk out of the door, and they're, like, amazed. Like: "Oh, everything I've heard from Medtronic about Axonics is just not true," you know? And that's the key. I think I know the answer to this, but I'll follow up with it anyways. You view if you win the physician, you can win the business. There's, there's not some kind of management professionalization of the health system that is working against you. Is that kind of fair in, in your, your view, if you win these docs, you can win the business over time? So this is. I find myself explaining this often. This is a physician preference item. Yeah. The healthcare systems, we had zero when we started in 2019. 0. And we have over 350 agreements now with healthcare systems around the United States, starting with HCA and going all down to the Sisters of Mercy, you know? Yep, that's a joke. So, I'm gonna get in trouble for that one. But, in any event, well, in order to get any of those accounts and to get any of that business, our salespeople had to get these docs to pound on the table because these supply chain people have no interest in doing work, and they have no interest, really, in signing a new agreement. It doesn't, doesn't make them any more money. They don't get a... You know what I mean? Yep. So the docs, we had to get the docs to pound the table. That's how we got in the game, because the doc may wanna do business with us, but unless we get the contract with agree to a price and and payment terms, we don't have a green card to do business. We're real proud of what we've done from a contracting standpoint, which is what allows us to be able to go out there and get the business, because physicians don't. T his is the thing that I think surprised by. Physicians don't buy our sacral neuromodulation system. They don't even know what the price is. Those prices have been negotiated with their healthcare system, and today, a good 60% of all the physicians working in urology, they work for the man. They work for the institution. They're not running their own private shop any longer. So the business has really changed, and that's kinda, you know, we had to overcome all those hurdles to get in. Now, the good news is, today, Axonics, even though, once again, we, you know, we may be getting closer to 40% than we are to any other numbers, but we have more feet on the street than Medtronic does. We have more salespeople, we have more clinical specialists, we have more support, we're advertising on television and Facebook, and we're causing 250,000 people a month, Mike, to go to our website, FindRealRelief.com, to learn about what we're doing. That's three million people in 2023 that are for the first time, you know, are seeing, "Oh, wait, there's therapies to treat my problem." So, you know, we're well positioned. So it's not a fantasy. It's not like a fever dream I had, you know, that we're gonna be the market leader, okay? This is what's happening, and I predict that this- we will just continue to win these hearts and minds as we continue to do the right thing, support our customers, and continue to innovate, which we're not stopping on that either, and we wanna-- We've got some new little products, a new external trial system. We have the foramen finder that's gonna make procedures go faster, and we're doing the advertising, and we've got the people. So it's just a matter of time, and it doesn't happen. You know, how do you displace a company that has had a monopoly for multiple decades? It doesn't happen overnight. I was gonna ask about those products. We can get to them in a second. Yeah. There's always been street speculation about how big the market is, how fast it's growing. Mm-hmm. What your share is. I'm not gonna lead with any numbers. What do you think your market share in the U.S. is today? Well, look, we can only, you know, really go by third-party information, and what yourself and others have to say, but, you know, I—we don't know the exact number. Maybe it's 35%, maybe it's more. Yep. We don't really know for sure, 'cause they haven't, as you know, they haven't produced a hard number in many years. Yes. We're, you know, a little bit left to speculate about what that is. Fair enough. Shifting gears, you know, I think you've scaled this company in a very challenging environment. There's been no shortage of things to complain about over the last three-four years, and a lot of medical device companies have complained about them. COVID, different waves, different issues because of COVID, both on the patient willingness to engage side, on the physician and facility capacity side. It's hard to make stuff, so supply chains have been difficult. Mm-hmm. And there's price creep and labor creep and raw materials creep, and you haven't complained about them because the numbers have been good, and we've gone through this, and, you know, you call out challenges when there's reason to call them out. If there's no reason to call them out, you don't call them out. Here's the question: Which of those things were real tensions for you that, you know, have... 'Cause the point I'm trying to make is, like, the world seems to be calming down on a number of levels, or at least these challenges are abating, and you've done what you've done during a very tense period. So, like, as the world normalizes, what of those things or others could be most impactful for you and your trajectory? Well, look, we're not exempt from any of these challenges. You know, COVID was brutal, but we worked through it. We went to work. You know, pick a topic. Supply chain challenges. We fight supply chain challenges every single day in our business, every single day. But I'm-- there's no benefit in talking about that. That's our job, right? We have to figure out a way to produce these products. We have price increases, okay, from suppliers. Well, what do you do about that? Do you just let it kill your margins, or do you figure out creative ways to be more efficient and to absorb your overhead more efficiently? You know, these are the things that we have been up to, right? It's all about the operations of, of the business, right? You know, when we, and Kari, you may wanna talk about little about how we work with the overhead absorption and all that, but these are real issues. You know, do we have some customers that have issues with prior authorization? Yeah, they do, because they don't do their documentation correctly, right? It's not like there's not, like, some mysterious reason why this happens. It's a lack of attention to detail on the part of the account, you know? Not a conspiracy, per se. So the point is that there are a lot of these challenges, but that's the business that we've chosen, and that's the conversation that we have internally. Like, this is the business we've chosen, okay? We've gotta figure out how to reduce the number of steps to walk from here to here to here to build that particular product, 'cause we just got a 3% price increase, you know? We gotta figure it out, right? That's, that's... You You wanna make a few comments, Amanda? I agree with everything Ray said. We've had no shortage of our own struggles in all the areas you mentioned, supply chain and all the above. So I think, you know, I agree that we feel it's getting better for us, and we've been so focused on, you know, ramping up too, and getting to a steady state where, you know, we're fighting fires daily on macro items, but we're also trying to get to a steady state where we can build as much as we want to. I think, you know, that's starting to become more comfortable for us, more apparent to us, so, you know, we're able to finally try to start focusing more energy on what else can we do to manufacturing, where can we find spending less time? On the other hand, what is the elixir? Increase your revenue, okay? That solves a lot of problems, right? If revenue is continuing to increase in the market at a good margin, then that puts us in a position to be able to produce results, right? So we—the focus has been clearly on making sure that we have an optimized commercial team, and we found early on that clinical specialists were part of the key to success. This is something that our competitor doesn't do, right? We have nearly 200 clinical specialists, like half of the sales team, the field team, are clinical specialists. What is it that they do? Well, they're in every single procedure. They're there for the actual trial to make sure that goes well. They talk to the patient. They're there for the actual implant, make sure that goes well. They're there to program the patient, right? Make sure that goes well, right? We follow up. We, we've applied human resources to do follow-ups with people. We got the feet on the street, and then we're kind of coming in over the top also to tuck people in and gather data and share that data with our customers. So I dare say that, you know, if we were gonna write a book, okay, how do you, how do you be successful in it with an implantable product line? These are the elements that you need. And so we want to delight the customer. We don't want them just to be satisfied. We want them to say, "Wow, these Axonics folks, man, they're really on top of everything! Why was I resisting? Look how much better it is now," right? You know, I can make a lot of jokes about that. Reminds me of my first before I got the board. But anyway. You're good. Don't, don't pull on that thread. You know what I'm saying? So, you know, we wanna, we wanna have very- we want happy customers, right? Because they then will speak favorably about the company when Mike Polark inquires. This is the key, right? We, we want fans of, of what we're doing and, and so on, so forth. So higher level of satisfaction. And in the end of the day, the one thing we can say about physicians is they really do wanna see their patients do well, and if those patients are doing well because they put an Axonics device in their body or they injected Bulkamid, they're, they're really thrilled about that. Yep. You know, so... All right, so we opened the door there on margin. I wanna talk about it, one question, and then I wanna talk about Bulkamid. Yeah, this is the phase of a emerging medical device company's life where, you know, and you make money. You've been very clear that you wanna build a large business but make some money along the way. There's definitely signs in the numbers that there's leverage showing, and obviously growth absorbs a lot of expenditure. Yeah. You're talking about... Careful. In addition to just trying to grow the business the right way, kind of what has changed on the cost side and, you know, kind of what's the philosophy here? And do you have a profitability target that maybe you haven't told us about, that if you wanna tell us about, we'll take it, but that you're managing this organization toward? I'll comment here. I think what we've seen so far, we're really pleased with, as far as where we've come out on gross margin and more recently, operating margin. Really pleased with the progress we've made. On the operating margin side, we really, I think what's caused this for us is that we've stayed keenly focused on our core business and the objectives. We've been really strategic about what kind of investments we make to keep that focus, and we've always tried to run the business efficiently with profit in mind. Having said that, what we've seen in previous quarters has to some degree happened very naturally in the business model. So, you know, where do we go from here? I think on both gross margin and operating margin, you know, we haven't given formal guidance for 2024, but we surely expect the trends will continue, right? So for operating margin, you know, at a high level, we like the target of mid-teen operating margin, sorry, adjusted EBITDA margin, with the potential to get to, you know, high teens in 2025. This gives us a good balance of focusing on profitability while also focusing on investing in business work. So it's all, it's a bottom-up approach. So it's not, you know, like, we can't just wave a wand and we're not big enough to do that, right? It is ultimately bottom up. What is the productivity of each of those individuals that we have in the field? Now you know our business is like, I think we're like 97%, SNM is like 98% U.S. Bulkamid is more 81 direct, some direct sales. So, but it's, it's bottom up, right? We're, we're focused on what specifically does a successful sales representative do, and a successful clinical person do every day, and that's the minutiae that we really focus on. UroGPO, same thing. We can't get the margin that we want, 'cause the prices are exactly the same. That's another benefit, though, because in contracting, our ASPs are flat for four years. Virtually no change in ASP. So that's a steady state. So if your margins are increasing and your sales price is the same, where is it coming from? It has to come from efficiency and organization, you know, focused on, you know, overhead absorption and all the other things that contribute to that, right? So, that's the focus, right? We can have people be more efficient in what they're doing and help, you know, drive new account acquisition, but more importantly, drive increases in procedural volume in the existing... Yeah, that's the formula for success. The good news is that we were smart, based on experience, you don't let reps set prices in the field. Our reps have no pricing authority. They don't need it. You know, we—the prices are the prices. They've been contracted with the healthcare. So that takes one major variable out of the equation, right? 'Cause a rep, I mean, let's face it, you know, unless you were to pay them a margin, which gets real complicated, there's no price that's low enough for them. I mean, like, if it doesn't cost—it's not out of my pocket, you know, I'll do whatever it takes, right? We wanna—we eliminated that, so we don't have that issue. Interesting. I'm not gonna go straight to Bulkamid. I wanna ask on DTC, 'cause it layers into cost. You know, you're advertising publicly on TV, or publicly, of course. You're advertising on TV, $20 million a year has been kind of the spend number. You've been, maybe it's a little more, maybe it's a little less, but it's been consistent. I think your message around this has been very clear, which is, "We're gonna test, we're gonna learn. We're not gonna throw dollars at the problem, or throw dollars at the opportunity." And it sounds like, you know, it's been good for awareness. You've been clear, though, like, a lot of patients show up, and they have to go through the funnel, and they don't just show up SNM ready and... You know, but it also sounds like it's helping with Axonics brand to customers, and surely, you know, there are patients that are getting all the way to the end of the funnel and saying yes to SNM. I guess, is that the correct assessment in, like, you know, kinda this pace of $20 million or so a year? You still like doing this, notwithstanding that it's a really big funnel, and it sounds like you're maybe losing some here and gaining some here, and is this the right number, I guess, is the point? Oh, you gave a really good answer in the meeting. You wanna start? No? I'll do it. You okay? Sure, I can start, yeah. Yeah. You know, I think we see the investment as a... This is long term for Axonics. It's not directly driving the business for us, but we wanna continue making the investment so that we continue to increase, you know, awareness out there with at the patient level. Well, think about it. Yeah, think about it. So, okay, we, we sit there, we go, "Okay, how-" We have a situation where virtually no one out in the world knows that these therapies... Okay? That's, that was a fact, yeah. Absolutely. So what-- faced with that, you have two choices: One, you could go and start to deal with referral patterns. You could go to every primary care physician and GYN and pitch them on why Bulkamid and why SNM is good and it's worthy of them to refer. They got no dog in the race, right? So that... And, and think about it, I'd have to hire a 500-person pharmaceutical sales team to go out there and detailing all these folks. And we said, "And-- But they don't have a dog in the race. This is not... This doesn't make sense to me, intuitively." So we had a choice, either do that, or we gotta go big picture, and we decided we're gonna go big picture, and it's working. It's working. 'Cause first of all, the customers that we had were thrilled to death, like, "Oh, my God, here's Axonics. You know, you're not the biggest player in the field, yet you're going out there and creating awareness," right? So they really appreciated that. Then they start getting leads, and it's like, "Oh, what are those? Oh, okay, we gotta figure out how to, how to handle that," right? You know, we've got to make outgoing phone calls to patients? Doctors are not in the habit, and their practices are not in the habit of making an outgoing phone call, and so forth. So we, we've had to, you know, work on how do we work with these practices that are not used to this, and do more of a concierge service when we have a person, we can get them on the phone to try to land them an appointment in real time, while we have the patient on the phone and the doctor. That's perfect, no, but, you know, it's working. So that was that's the decision we made. The point about DTC is that it's high profile, right? You can see it, everybody can see it, you can see the ads on TV, and, and, and if you, if you google Knix Panties, you're gonna see Axonics ads for the rest of your life. Don't do that. The... I lost- It's all right. But anyway, you know, you can see, right, that. That's, but it's not the biggest driver. That's what the point I'm trying to make. DTC is not the driver of our business. Yep. It's the cherry on top, okay? You know, we do more blocking and tackling stuff, like having a doc, working with them to help send letters out to their existing patients, which just really proves the whole thesis that there are hundreds, if not thousands, of patients in every single urology practice that we deal with, that no one has ever talked to them about Sacral Neuromodulation. I mean, that's the bottom line. So we wanna try to activate their existing patients, because they already have a listening for the doc, get them back in the practice, and then we get immediate. We don't have this whole gestation period, "I haven't tried a drug yet," blah, blah, blah, blah. Yep. That's what we're up to. Good. We have nine, 10 minutes. I wanna hit on Bulkamid. When you bought it, the revenue target was $50 million in 2024. You're gonna do $70 million + in 2023. What do you think is plausible here, the three-year view? I think that, you know, you'll see us exiting 2024 at a $100 million run rate. Which harkens back to, I remember another one of your peers, who was giving me such a hard time. Like, "When do you think you can do a $100 million with this product? You ever think you can do a $100 million with the product?" Well, guess what? There we go, next year. You know what I mean? Yep. We'll be on that ramp. This thing is a phenomenon unto itself, and I mean, you know, more and more patients are getting Bulkamid, and they're not... Because before they only had the sling option, and most women said, "No, thank you. Yep. Well, now it's like: "Well, it's Bulkamid. It's easy, it's fast, it's inexpensive. Like, you know, we can get you dry immediately. There's no downtime, there's no adverse event possibility." It's really, great. So it's become, and fast becoming, if not across the country, the primary, primary, first, first-line therapy for, for people who have that. So it's been phenomenal, and we don't see this going down. Yeah. Because we're still not there. I mean, we still have thousands of more practices that should be doing Bulkamid that are not yet. R&D question. You know, gels are interesting in medical device land. You have a gel platform now. This is a long-term question. I mean, is there other stuff for you to work on, like new applications for gel, either become second to market or, you know, like beyond incontinence or, you know... Talk to me about the kinda science of the gel you have and whether or not there's something else to- We're not focused. Yeah. You know, it's a unique hydrogel. It works really well for this application, but, you know, this is the target, right? We even, you know, we get a lot of questions about: "Well, what about Bulkamid for fecal incontinence?" Like, well, it's not—I wanna say the chemistry, it's not right. It's not strong enough to work there. And we are gonna continue to stay focused. I mean, right now we are a pure play incontinence company, and there's plenty of patients out there. I mean, tens of millions of patients. So why defocus our energy into some other vertical or- Yep. That, that's not what we're... We really wanna stay, you know, straight down the fairway, because there's just so many that are available for us to treat, you know, with, with Bulkamid and... So that, that's really the key. Yeah. We don't wanna fill up the bag with a bunch of stuff. We don't need to. We want our people to be focused, and the thing about Bulkamid is that we would not have been successful with that product had we not been in the sacral neuromodulation business, generating these gross profit dollars, which allowed us to make investment in getting that product to market. So you can't separate it. It's very difficult with an ASP of $1,000 per patient. That's a tough road to hoe. You know, even with $75 million or $100 million worth of business, that's difficult to do. But it's the SNM gross profit dollars that really allow us, you know, to have been able to champion this product in the marketplace. So it's. You can't really separate... You know, you really can't separate the two. You know, that... Yeah. That's the answer. Back to SNM quickly. I mean, I think what's interesting is you launched with a rechargeable product. This was your entrance. A couple of years later, you launched the recharge-free product. The 20+ year Medtronic InterStim was a recharge-free... Well, not recharge-free, non-rechargeable product. Your mix is now 70/30-ish recharge-free. Why sell the rechargeable product at this point? That's a funny question. I'll try to answer it straight. Because why wouldn't I want a device that's the size of an Andes Mint, which is 5 cc's versus a 10 cc product? We moved the recharging interval to now once, one hour every six-12 months. I mean, that's, that's a phenomenal product. Yeah. The only issue with that product has nothing to do with the patient. This has to do with the perception of the physician. All I knew for 25 years was a non-rechargeable product. So we, it So we, it was clear to us that we needed a non-rechargeable, winning non-rechargeable product with long life and MRI compatibility, and all the other cool features that we have, if we were gonna be the market leader. Because the perception of the physician, once again, it's hard to get them to, you know, to change overnight. But I think the rechargeable product's got a lot of legs, because the fact is, it's, it's a lot smaller, and you, you don't even feel that product in your body. So why, why not? I think when it was one hour per week, one hour every two weeks, one hour every month, there was still a charging burden that a physician could say, "Well, I don't really know if my patient is gonna be able to do that," or have, you know, whatever their rationale was. We've eliminated that completely. All you do is you put the device in, even in an 80-year-old, just have them come into your office six months later and make sure they're charged up. That. How simple is that? So you see what I mean? Like, in this particular instance, the fourth generation of our rechargeable product makes it a lot more attractive for a more enlightened physician who actually is gonna be thoughtful about it. And what we did, and this is really inside baseball comment, but it's the same lead that works with both products. So you can go into the OR or procedure room, there's no anesthesia, you know, maybe protocol, and you can make a game time decision. 'Cause here's the thing that we try to explain to docs: You don't know how much energy is gonna be required to get neural activation before you go into the procedure room. So why are you predetermining, right? If you get a low amount of energy, sure, you the device will last for maybe 24 years. But what if you can't get low energy to be able to get the stimulation that the patient needs to get the activation? Well, now you've just reduced the time in the body by half. So why would you disadvantage your patient just because you have this Medtronic perception that this is what sacral neuromodulation is? With the rechargeable product, you're gonna get 20+ years out of that device no matter what. Yeah, you may have to charge it every six months as opposed to once a year. Big deal. So we did this... You know, we were very thoughtful about this, and we want them to have the option. And the smartest docs that we have working with us, they make game time decisions. They tell the patient, "Look, I don't know which device is gonna be better for you. I promise you we'll do the best that we can, and I'll put whichever device is gonna last the longest and it's gonna work best for you, Mike. You trust me, right?" "Yes, of course. Otherwise-" Right? You and we'll go in, and we'll do what's best. That's the truly enlightened approach. So I think it's important that we have both. And the fact of the matter is, Medtronic tried to come out with a rechargeable device, but it didn't work. Wow, that's kind of scary, isn't it? Okay, so that's a fact. Yeah. It's a fact. I mean- That's good color. I appreciate that. Yeah. I ask it from the lens of like, look, you've disclosed the mix. It's kind of, you know... It is. Yeah, right. And then I think also, like, push to shove, you probably make a little more money on the recharge free- Right ... device. And so that, that was the spirit of the question, and, but I've always kind of saw it from the patient's perspective, and this kind of game time decision is a new tidbit for me, so appreciate that. Right. And the point is that the fact that we can make a couple more points in margin on the non-rechargeable device or rechargeable device, that's not our contract. Yeah. Yep. We want to do what is best for the patient. That's what our people are trained to say, trained to do, and we're trying to get that message across, that we are not doing business at any cost. That's not who we are. We wanna do the right thing for patients, and we think that is the winning formula. Right, if we do the right thing for the patients, we do the right things for the customers, we do the right things for our own people, right? You know what I mean? To treat them well, treat them with respect, et cetera, et cetera. That, I think, is the winning formula. I know it sounds like motherhood and apple pie, but I don't think that's changed. I think that's the winning formula, and that's what we strive for. Good. We have to leave it there. Ray, Kari, thanks for being here. Neil, thank you. Pleasure. Everybody- Appreciate it.