Welcome, everybody. I'm Meta Marshall. I lead up networking here at Morgan Stanley. We're delighted to have Greg Dorai, who is the SVP and GM of the Campus Connectivity business at Cisco. I'm gonna read some brief disclosures, and I think you're gonna read some brief disclosures, and then we'll get into a more exciting conversation. So for important disclosures, please see the Morgan Stanley Research disclosures website at morganstanley.com/researchdisclosures. If you have any questions, please reach out to your Morgan Stanley sales representative. Greg, did you wanna match my disclosures? I will. Thank you, and good morning, everybody. It's such a pleasure to be here. I'll be making forward-looking statements, not all of which may translate into financial results, so I urge you to look at our 10-Q or 10-K for guidelines around those. Okay, perfect. So Greg, maybe just start, for those who may not be familiar with you, can you just kind of give a sense of your role at Cisco and just any other roles that you had kinda before stepping into this role? Yeah. So I run the... I'm the GM for the campus switching business at Cisco, so that includes our Cat9K switching portfolio and all the management tools that we use on top of it. Previously, I've run the wireless portfolio as well. Mm-hmm. So between those two, that's sort of our largest core networking product line in the campus portfolio. Okay, perfect. You know, as you just mentioned, the campus business is the largest business within the Cisco portfolio. Can you just talk a little bit about some of the major demand trends you're seeing within the portfolio currently? Yeah, I think, if you look at the last, let's say, four years, we saw a big boom in demand driven by supply chain chokes. All of us knew it, and then over the last three, four quarters, we shipped out almost all of that. So there was a lot of excess shipping if you look at our historical trend line that we did in the last three, four quarters. What we are now seeing is a softness in demand relative to that long-term trend line, and there are a couple of reasons. Chuck spoke about it in the earnings as well. One is the digestion of that supply, because it takes some time for enterprises to digest it. When we look at our Meraki portfolio, which is cloud connected, and where we can see activation of all our switches we ship, we are seeing an uptick in activation, but it's not yet caught up to where we would expect it to be normal. I'd say it's gonna take till the end of Cisco's fiscal year or more to the back half of this calendar year, where we expect that digestion to normalize. Okay. The second thing we are seeing is some macro softness, just a little bit of global softness, but there are specific spikes in a few areas, like, certain countries in APJC and Europe. We're seeing a little bit more softness than in the Americas, and our SP and cloud segments have been softer than our enterprise segments. So global softness. So those are the two near-term, I would say. Mm-hmm. Longer term, when we look at, okay, that's fine, this should go away. My expectation is that the trend line for campus business remains close to where it was, with some upside possibilities. The headwind for that has been hybrid work and there's this, oh, will we shut down offices, and therefore the campus ports drop? Of course, if you're living in New York or San Francisco, like I am, you do get this real fear because, you know, return to work has been a little slower. But anywhere else in the world, it's actually on an uptick because people are being mandated to come in across Europe, across APJC, across smaller cities in the U.S. as well, and so we're actually seeing that headwind no longer to be true, right? Like, I wouldn't say it's a tailwind, but it's at least gonna come back to historical occupancy rates. That's one. The tailwind for us is when people do come back to work, they're gonna expect a level of experience that was higher than when they left, whether it was video collaboration or whether it's IoT sensors. You yourself in your badge said, "Scan, no printed agenda. Mm-hmm. That means you need to have scanners in more places in this hotel, things like that, right? IoT devices. So that's a tailwind. So between those two, I expect this to be a wash- Mm-hmm ... and us to return to long-term trend lines. Okay, got it. My team wishes they were still on hybrid work. New York- Yeah ... is very much back in the office. Yeah. So, maybe just, you know, you mentioned kind of the softness near term being from digestion of supply or just inventory digestion. Just how are you kind of judging internally, just what is, inventory digestion versus macro headwinds? 'Cause I think that's a question that investors have, is just: how much visibility do you actually have into those? It's hard to discern what's what. Historically, we see a refresh cycle between four-six years. four years for our wireless, six years for our switching, and that's how we do the long-term trend line- Mm-hmm ... internally. And we know that it's below that trend line right now. So we kinda know that, hey, something's happening, so that we have hard data. The activation data, digestion data, the one that we have is the Meraki product line that I spoke about. That's about 15% of the campus business, if you will, right? Mm-hmm. Like that or that about, maybe 20% in some areas. So it's a dipstick, but it's not- Yeah ... fully representative, and so we are extrapolating using that, so it's hard to, hard to discern. What we do know is when we talk to partners, when we talk to customers, they are not really talking about digestion as the issue why they're not spending, right? Mm-hmm. Like, so they are more forward-looking, and so I'm really hopeful that what we are seeing is very ephemeral. Mm-hmm ... and in a couple of quarters, it goes back to true demand drivers, which are going to be AI, security, and do I have the network for that? Yeah. I think we are very well positioned to ride all those trends. ... So, I mean, you spoke about early on, you know, kind of the headwinds and tailwinds that return to the office can be. Is there a way to think of what that multiplier is if you want to make an office more technology-dense or something that helps us get an insight into, okay, we get past some of the offices that are getting smaller- Yeah. What, how do you determine what that longer term upsell is? I mean, there is a number, but I don't know if everyone will hit that number. So don't model based on that, but I'll give you the number. Sure. When we upgraded our Cisco offices- Mm-hmm. So we did two state-of-the-art offices, one in New York and one in Atlanta. Mm-hmm. The number of ports those offices required. And so this is basically everything is PoE powered, including your desk, a lot of lighting, and so it's extremely power efficient. We save 30%-40% on power. We have Cisco Spaces portfolio. This is for indoor navigation. Everything is connected, whether it's Webex cameras, so you can know how many people are in an office room- Mm-hmm Anytime, and you can have that display. You can book office rooms based on actual occupancy, on video monitors, so on and so forth. So, so it works. Yeah. In an office like that, the number of ports is three times the number of ports in an office built just for connectivity. Okay. So that's a big multiplier. Yeah. Now, the reason why I say I don't expect every Cisco building- Yeah - is going to get outfitted that way because it's really expensive. But certainly the big, you know, collaboration centers of an enterprise or where, you know, you get customers in- Yeah They're going to get outfitted that way. Okay. So I don't know what the exact multiple will be if you blend it out- Mm-hmm. but at the upper end, it's 3x. Okay. So you can kinda think of headquarters of most companies might get outfitted like that, but branches- Yeah might kind of stay a little bit more connectivity-based. Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly. Okay. You know, we naturally assume more Wi-Fi or more video conferencing when we think about outfitting an office for hybrid work. But what are you seeing most forward-thinking organizations thinking about in terms of outfitting an office to make it more appealing or efficient to employees as they return to the office? I mean, two broad themes we are seeing. Yeah. Again, forward-looking, companies do. One is the employee experience. So in the employee experience, that's depending on when you are born, you're gonna get a little bit more particular about what this experience might be. But it's like, from air quality indexes. Mm-hmm. There are groups of people who want to come into a building, and they want to know what that is. All of our Wi-Fi access points have air quality sensors that feeds into software, so you can kinda look at what's going on in different parts of the building. You can know, which conference rooms and which part of the building are available when you walk in. Mm-hmm. In the hybrid work world, sometimes we find that employees who come into a building don't necessarily come in every week, so they don't really know the layout of the building. So indoor navigation, that's an experience as well. And on the other side, it's more productivity-based. So if I'm part of the facilities team that's running that particular office, I actually want to know, what is the utilization? Mm-hmm. Right? Which, which facilities are used more, less? I want to basically be able to control the power, so it's energy. Like in our Atlanta office, we saw a 30% drop in our overall power consumptions after we digitized and we had PoE, where you could turn things on and off- Mm-hmm - based on actual occupancy. And so they're looking for that. Yeah. Sustainability is a big driver as well. This gentleman seems to have a question. Sure. Do we have a mic? All right. I have two questions. First question is, when you look at the competitive landscape, you know, you looked at Juniper and Extreme, and all these guys were growing. They've doubled their business since pre-pandemic, and then the last two quarters, both have seen things get crushed, just like you guys have seen it. When you look at sort of the long-term competitive landscape, it feels like they both, they basically grew because you guys couldn't deliver products in time due to the pandemic supply constraints. Number one, do you feel that way? Do you feel like you can take share back if that is the case? And number two, DNA Center. Obviously, the strategy here is to sell cheaper relative hardware and then charge the customers for the DNA Center with all the services that you can bundle on top of that. How is that going? I mean, you guys started pushing this in 2018, 2019, three- to five-year renewal rates. How are the renewal rates for, like... Back then, it was, I think they were called it, bronze, silver, and gold. So I guess those are my two questions, kind of taking back market share from the, from the competition, and two, how successful has the DNA Center strategy in terms of, you know, implementing the hardware and upselling the software going? Thanks. Yeah. So I think on the market share, if you look at the last three-four quarters in our campus switching and campus wireless business, they're actually gaining share. So the takeback is happening. Whether it's real share gain or loss depends on after you average out four quarters, right? Like, so I would say go look at our campus switching, campus- Yeah Wireless business already because we shipped out so much in the last three, four quarters. We had healthy share gains. Now, can we retain that? Is it true share? As the demand normalizes- Mm-hmm We'll have to look at over four quarters. So that's on market share. Just looking at the pandemic, post-pandemic. I think I finally feel confident if it was just due to a supply chain, we will take back because our supply chain is now fully normalized. I don't—it depends, right? Like, I think it sort of has geographic variance to it, right? In APJC, in certain markets, we couldn't really participate fully during the demand uptick, and we did lose share there. And I'm not sure that anything has changed in geopolitics, political situation, where we can say we'll inflect. In North America and Europe, yeah, I agree with that statement, right? Like, if we had lost share, it was largely due to supply unchoking at different parts, and it's not been significantly different post-pandemic. On DNA Center, which we now call Catalyst Center, it was not on cheap hardware. It was on a Cat9K switching portfolio, but we did take a bet that a certain portion of it was on, would be software versus hardware. We are seeing significant adoption growth in Catalyst Center over the last 18 months. What about the renewal rates? Yeah, so that's an early indicator of renewal rates. Renewal rates are going in the right direction. I'm not gonna give you specific numbers on this portfolio, but it's going in the right direction. Adoption is looking good. Our adoption on the Meraki portfolio, which is our cloud-delivered portfolio, and renewal rates are very, very high, right? Like, near perfect, if you will. And the other part of our strategy is the same Cat9K hardware can work on Meraki as well. That's the vision that we announced about 12-15 months ago. Our Wi-Fi 6E and up portfolio on the wireless is already that way. So you can actually use it on Meraki or this, and so we're hoping that the migration to cloud gives an uptick as well. So adoption is looking good, our renewal rates are trending in the right direction, and we think we have upside because our hardware now can work both on cloud and on-prem. Okay. We'll dig more into competitive landscape and software as we go throughout, but, helpful introduction to that topic. You know, maybe sticking on Power over Ethernet for a while, you know, whether with AI, with whether a lot of things, power has kind of come into focus. Just how many... Where does that fit on the priority list of organizations, just in terms of an upgrade, a reason to upgrade, or what are you normally seeing? Is it still security that's kind of number one reason that you upgrade? Is it, "I'm reoutfitting my office?" Are some of these more sustainability factors- Yeah - Kind of coming into it? If you look at reasons to upgrade, there are infrastructure-driven reasons, and then there are sort of overall solution-driven reasons. Mm-hmm. The infrastructure div driven reasons tend to be UPOE, which is the next-gen PoE. Yeah. Almost all our high-end switches come with 90-W PoE, so basically, you can power an LCD monitor for video collaboration. Okay ... just PoE, if you will, and mGig, which is multi-gig throughput. Mm-hmm. So if you want high latest next-gen Wi-Fi, like Wi-Fi 6E or Wi-Fi 7, you're gonna need that capacity. And just the ability to do more processing at lower power, like some of our Silicon One- Mm-hmm ... chips have, right? Like, so those are infrastructure-driven reasons. Historically, that you would hit anywhere between four-six years- Mm-hmm ... you would want to refresh your infrastructure, if you, if you don't want to choke. That's been the refresh cycle- Yeah ... if infrastructure driven. If it is, and four years for wireless, six years more for switching routing, but that's where we are. If it is due to solution, that's a little bit new, right? Mm. We don't know how it'll impact, but that's where security comes in. Our older switches don't have the same level of telemetry that we can put in in our newer switches, that we can then send to our security portfolio or even to a third-party vendor to be more tighter- Mm-hmm ... in security at the campus. So vulnerabilities are low if you are more modern in your infrastructure. Mm. That's another reason to upgrade. That's a big driver for CIOs. Then the second reason is, for a lot of campuses today, the number one hurdle is complexity. Mm-hmm. Historically, in the networking space, competition was by silos: switching, wireless, data center, WAN, and so on and so forth. And so that has resulted in complexity because you have different management layers in each, but fundamentally, what matters is the experience. Mm. I think that's something that can be a driver if we can deliver solutions that actually span that experience, and I can talk of later on. Yeah ... how we are thinking about it. I actually think that's a driver enough. Just to give you an example, for every minute of downtime for this hotel, they will probably spend more than the CapEx, right? For every dollar of Cat9K switch I ship, someone is spending between $5-$10 on operating and maintaining the, the switch. Therefore, there's more dollars in play in how you run the network than in the actual CapEx of what you need to build a network. So if we can tap into that and lower those expenses for this hotel- Mm-hmm ... I think that's a refresh driver. Okay. Okay, perfect. You know, we just introduced the topic, but, you know, you've had more of a subscription offering added on to the campus networking portfolio over the past couple of years. Some of your competitors make noise about that, that they don't have kind of some of these subscription upsells on top of that. Just what does Cisco view as the appetite from the customer to kind of have at least a portion of their purchase be in subscription? I think we shipped our, as the gentleman pointed out, when we launched DNA and Catalyst 9K, which is our current switching line, I think about six years ago, if memory serves me right, that's when we made this big move. Yeah ... to subscription. Right. We are seeing very good adoption, but if you talk to a customer, the focus is less on subscription or the price of software or the price of hardware. It's more on value, right? Like, so I think we get renewals where we have demonstrated value in the software, which means- Mm-hmm. Which is why I started answering with adoption. Right. If you don't get adoption, then you can't get value. So that's one, and so the conversation, not whether it's security, whether it's AI in the networking, not the, you know, LLM AI, but just even in networking. Mm-hmm. If you can demonstrate value that the network is five nines, seven nines because of that software, we get renewals, and that's our focus. There's also lower end of the segments, which could not invest in on-prem gear that's expensive, like DNA Center, and so adoption has been a hurdle. That is why we are pushing the Meraki line now. Mm. Works on the same hardware, and you can use the same license, and we think that will be a driver of adoption and renewal for our mid-market and below segments that are on-prem Cat 9K today. Okay. That leads into my next question, which is just, you know, how has that line changed over time of between who is a Meraki customer and a Cisco customer? It's blurring. Yeah. Historically, we've had two lines, and this historical is just even two years ago. Yeah. Right, like, which means a lot of our customers may see us as two different product lines. You have the Catalyst line, we have the Meraki line, and you need to buy different hardware, different software for both, right? And so they had their own segments that were purchasing. Meraki was more mid-market, and then Catalyst was more upmarket. What we noticed was it was blurring even in the market without us doing anything, which means majority of our customers had both. Mm-hmm. Right? They were deploying Catalyst Center in their campus, they were deploying Meraki in their branch. Mm-hmm. This was the typical deployment scenario. So they were already dabbling in both. I think the lines are gonna blur even more with where we are taking a portfolio, where we no longer, if I play out two years from now- Mm ... we are already well on our way in Wi-Fi. We're getting there with switching, but if I play out two years, it's gonna be the same hardware, Cat 9K, that you will buy, regardless of whether you want to consume Meraki or DNA Center or Catalyst Center. So that means the lines, you can sell—you're selling essentially the same thing, and you're selling the same license, and the deployment model for management is just a choice that you can make after you purchase the gear- Mm ... rather than before you purchase the gear. So at that point, I think we go to what we are calling the Cisco Networking Cloud, where the brands Meraki and Catalyst are less relevant, and the brand Cisco is more relevant in- Right -networking. Okay. I mean, there's a number of competitors in the market, kind of to the question we were alluding to earlier, that have made noise about their campus portfolios in the past couple of years, you know, whether that be Juniper or Arista or Fortinet or Extreme. You know, just what do you think the market misses about some of Cisco's competitive advantages and, and why your share can be more sustainable in the market? I think what, what I would say is, when you look at what most of our customers want from their experience, it's from your phone or the laptop all the way to the app- Mm-hmm ... in the data center or hyperscaler, and they want to assure that experience. That is the goal. Cisco has number one market share in campus switching, number one market share in wireless, number one market share in data center, number one market share in SD-WAN branch. So we have the ability to piece together- Mm-hmm ... for any enterprise, this flow, and so that's what the market underestimates. The market expects us to continue working in silos like we have historically done. Yeah. And all of our competition compete with us in these silos, and we have had some share loss, gain, et cetera, but no competitor has the platform breadth and scope that we have. So if we can deliver on that, have that common management platform across all these domains with AI, with common data lakes, with AI on those data lakes- Mm-hmm ... that assure that. A good example of this is a ThousandEyes acquisition. That actually does what I was just-- It gives you digital experience monitoring for that complete experience. So when it was founded, it didn't integrate with any of our domains. Mm-hmm. And now, what we're doing is we're doing the integration, so we can not only say where the experience breaks down, you can go and say, "It's wireless. Let's share data. Let's try and fix that wireless experience in this room." I think that's where we're going, and the market underestimates the power of that platform solution we can provide. Okay. I mean, at Cisco Live last year, you made a big deal about these kind of solutions that you were going to sell versus kind of the previous silos. Yeah. You know, just where do you feel like the channel is on being able to kind of sell these solutions? Where do you feel like customers are on being able to think about their needs in terms of solutions versus kind of- Early days. Earlier silos. Early days, right? Right. I think this vision, what I said, is not something new. Historically, any vendor, including Cisco, has struggled to execute this. So the market will look for proof points. We are about 25% of the way there. Like I said, my expectation is the next 18 months will be well on our way there. So where the market channel is, they love the vision. In fact, we had a partner summit last week in Americas, and the only thing they could say is go faster- Mm-hmm. to that endpoint, because it gives certainty, you know what to buy, et cetera. So there's a very good reception, but in terms of actual, are we actually seeing product shift toward ramp yet, but we expect to. Okay. I wanna maybe jump into questions a little bit sooner. I have plenty of questions, but just in case there's kind of any questions from the audience. I have more from Jim. You mentioned the platform story. I wanna get a sense of, you know, you look at the margins that Juniper, and Extreme, and HPE have, they're six handle and below Meraki, and Cisco is seven handle on the plus. So you guys have much better margins than they do. Is that too much? Should you guys get more aggressive to take share, or do you think that with this platform story, you can maintain your margins and maintain share? It's a value game. I think in certain segments, what you're seeing is our overall average. In certain segments, absolutely are more price competitive. I would say, mid-market and below in Europe, in Asia-Pacific, are more price competitive. And there, you know, it's a question of trade-offs, and sometimes we have traded. We have not gone after those shares because we felt there's more value elsewhere. But in those segments, if you do want to gain share and that's your strategy, you have to be price competitive. But there are other segments where the game is not price, it's value, like I spoke of, right? Like, if a downtime cost you so much dollars relative to, you know, the CapEx cost, then they're gonna want the software value to be high, and that's what we are seeing. The value is on, are you really providing the software that can truly reduce operational costs? And if you are, they'll pay for it. So I would say it depends on which segment you're doing. We tend to focus more upmarket, and that's why our margin profile is higher. And, you know, but if you do need to gain share, like, in certain segments, price, you do need to give up on some price. Always we have to balance. So in some periods, we have to do more, some periods we focus on value, so. You know, that's all I can say, but yeah. All right. Any other questions from the audience? All right, perfect. I'll jump back into questions. You know, we hear a lot on our CIO calls about smarter manufacturing floors, IoT kind of becoming a bigger driver for networking investment. You know, just what ways do you feel like Cisco is positioning itself to kind of take advantage of those opportunities? Most certainly, I think we are seeing a big trend to factories of the future, where the factory floors are being automated, and there's this convergence of what I call OT and IT, right? When you do this automation and machines talking to each other, you're gonna need high-speed connectivity. That's where the IT and networking comes in. Mm-hmm. But it's often machine to machine, so it's OT, so you need to work closely with the, with the OT ecosystem to, to integrate the data flows, correctly. We have an industrial IoT portfolio that, particularly around IoT switching, that has been doing very well historically, and so we feel very well positioned. The key trends as you automate the factory, you know, talking to a German auto car manufacturer, they, you can guess basis what I say, but, like, there are plenty that are doing the same. In their all-electric plants, what they want to do is they really want to go to a model where they can, if required, remote operate these plants and robots- Mm-hmm. even from a different time zone. They're not there at all. Yeah. But remember... So you really need this high-speed connectivity that's set up. Mm-hmm. But historically, that plant is owned by the OT team. Mm-hmm. For, I think, they said for every minute of downtime during a main shift, it's like $12 million loss for this particular, because eight cars fewer are produced. So it's a real meaningful impact if you connect everything and something happens and the network is down, right? Like- Yeah. And we are well positioned because IT, we truly understand, and we have been, for the last five years, working with some of these OT vendors. Mm-hmm. who supply these machines to those factories, and I think, I feel, I feel we are well positioned, but it's a huge trend, these- Okay ... factories of the future. Okay, we'd be remiss to hold a session today without talking about AI. You know, how is Cisco bringing more AI into the campus portfolio, either through improved security or just better automation of the networks? So I wanna start first, which is not very relevant to campus, but is very relevant to how Cisco would participate, is the AI for infra. So you look at a high-speed switching- Mm-hmm. with low latency that's required for the LLM models, Ethernet-based switching, which today has low share, is something that we expect will- Yeah gain share, and Cisco should gain share with that. This is what Chuck spoke about on the earnings call of your visibility to $1 billion. Yeah -of orders. So that, with the Silicon One-based switches- Yeah ... I think that's one area, but let's park that. It's outside campus. We have the NVIDIA partnership that we recently announced. That's on the compute. Mm-hmm. That's again, outside campus, but a little closer because as these learning models scale to enterprises- Right ... they would need GPU capacity, and so this partnership helps NVIDIA and Cisco- Mm-hmm ... give that to our enterprise customers. Now, in the campus portfolio... it's less learning models, but it's more inference models... Mm. -and how that's gonna come into play. So we'll see. It's too early to call. It's too early to call what sort of applications will that and what impact it has on network connectivity. Aside from that, AI, for how we operate the network, is a huge deal, AIOps of the network, right? And so this is really getting all of the data that Cisco sees- Mm-hmm ... and mining it, whether it's for security or for better, ways of operating the network. For security, the example that I'll give you is, we can actually see the data that's from, coming from all the IoT devices- Mm and know enough about those traffic patterns to classify those devices for our customers. Mm-hmm ... right, automatically through AI. And then we can also see, like, okay, that is a fire alarm. It connected as a fire alarm, but its behavior the last two weeks is different from what we'd expect a fire alarm to behave, and so we can quarantine. We can do that by sharing with our security portfolio. The Splunk acquisition plays really nicely into- Yeah ... how we can grow this, this story. And then on the network operations side, it's when there's a breakdown. Every minute of breakdown is expensive. So you don't know today where the breakdown is, in which domain: wireless in the campus, switching, or is it in the WAN or in the data center? I think with a product like ThousandEyes, you can quickly identify it, and then you can do some AI models to- Mm-hmm ... correlate, "Hey, you did a config change in the switch three days ago, and that's correlated to this problem we are seeing here. Yeah. So you should go and undo that change." Today, we don't do things like that, but with ThousandEyes integrated closely with our Meraki portfolio, we can. So I see us playing AI there. But fundamentally, the one thing that we don't talk enough about is Cisco as a trusted partner. Mm-hmm. In all of these models, sometimes trust is huge, trust in can you keep the data secure and private? Yeah. 'Cause the data that I'm talking about is extremely sensitive. Data, it's literally all of the traffic, and Cisco has earned that trust. So as we do AI, I hope that plays out with our customers as well. I got it. Maybe just circling back to macro for a second. You know, you laid out kind of the, how you're evaluating what the macro headwinds are currently and, you know, maybe how they differ by geography. Just as you think about recovery within the portfolio, you know, is it, you know, campus switching first and then Wi-Fi? Is it Wi-Fi first? Like, is there any kind of staging to the recovery or staging to the geographies? We have some, you know, sort of intelligent guesses, I would say. Yeah ... because it's a little bit forward-looking. Americas is recovering a little faster than- Mm-hmm ... Europe or APJC is, so that's one. There's early evidence suggests that. Mm. Americas and within that, enterprises are seeing recovery a little faster than public sector and state governments are, so that's sort of a trend. Yeah. I would say in terms of within domains, too early, but wireless likely leading the recovery- Okay ... and then switching will follow. Okay. And then maybe just last question from me: you know, how is the Cisco portfolio kind of responding to the desire for more SASE architectures? You know, I think sometimes we have these networking investors and security investors, but and networking buyers and security buyers, but increasingly, kind of, you know, how are you blending kind of what is these networking and security portfolios? Yeah, we're working very, very closely to integrate our secure networking product suite with Meraki and our security portfolio, spending a lot of time integrating. We are working on things like common policy, so we can share policy across these portfolios. We share data across these portfolios, and we are coming up with as-a-service models, where our customers don't need to worry about what are the individual products, firewall, router, SD-WAN, and we can-- we get them consume that service, and behind the scenes, we take care of bringing these portfolios together. So big area of investment for us. Okay. Okay, perfect. Well, with that, Greg, this has been a super helpful session. Appreciate you being here. Thank you.