We are a little bit past 2:50, so why don't we go ahead and get started? Let's check. And those chairs are, they're a little trip. Hello everyone, and welcome to the Raymond James TMT and Consumer Conference. I'm Andrew Marok, and I cover digital media and advertising technology at Raymond James TMT and Consumer Conference here at RJ, and we're thrilled to have Grindr joining us at this year's event. And with us from the company is CFO Vanna Krantz. Hey.. Thank you for joining. My pleasure. So I have a few questions prepared, but if anyone in the audience has anything they'd like me to pose to Vanna, we'll have openings for questions later in the chat. So I think most people are fairly familiar with the Grindr story, but for those who may not be in the chat. So I think most people are fairly familiar with the Grindr story, but for those who may not be, can you give us a quick overview of the company and where Grindr fits into the relationship and dating ecosystem? Sure. So Grindr is predominantly the most important app for the gay community. It has been around for about 13 years and really started out as a connection for the community. So it's really part of the fabric and the DNA of people coming out in their process of finding themselves. It is incredibly popular from a brand awareness perspective. We have 85% brand awareness globally. Popular from a brand awareness perspective, we have 85% brand awareness globally. We have an average amount of time on the app for the 13.5 million monthly active users of 60 minutes. We have approximately 100 of users of 60 minutes. We have approximately 111 billion chats in 2022. That's about 611 billion chats in 2022. That's about 600 chats per day per user, which is 10 times the amount on WhatsApp. So it's really a very important part of the community. Yeah, I think that was a really interesting point, how it's not just a dating app, it's a connections app, and it's connections that are romantic, non-romantic, platonic, you know, what have you. And you touched on some of those engagement and time spent metrics, which are pretty consistently coming in solidly ahead of other... Touched on some of those engagement and time spent metrics, which are pretty consistently coming in solidly ahead of other players in the online dating space. So I guess, what are some of the reasons, kind of fundamentally for that? Why is Grindr's players in the online dating space? I guess, what are some of the reasons, kind of fundamentally for that? Why is Grindr so much more central to the LGBT community than other apps to the communities that they serve? Sure. So it's not a swiping app, it is a geolocation app, so it's a grid. When you open it up. And so when you're on the grid, you can really see who's around you, and it allows you to essentially chat, and it could be about work, it could be about what... Essentially chat, and it could be about work, it could be about what bar to go to, it could be about a number of things, as well as identify your intent, if that's more of a casual dating or more serious dating relationship. And so it really- It really is a spectrum of use cases for anyone in the community, and that's really the biggest difference versus what I would call a more traditional dating app. ... Great! And then, so kind of where is Grindr in the maturity curve in terms of the app's feature set and capabilities? And what are some of the near-term opportunities you see to Boost variables like payer penetration and ARPU? So Grindr, Opportunities you see to Boost variables like payer penetration and ARPU. So Grindr went public about a year ago, just over a year. Like I said, it was around for 13 years, and it had generated a tremendous amount of what I would call love and importance for the community. And so generated a tremendous amount of what I would call love and importance for the community. And so when George and I, George is CEO, joined about a year ago, the real goal was to start to monetize this amazing asset, which has done an incredible job of effectively connecting the community. And so I would say we're right at the beginning of monetization. It's connecting the community. If you guys are really familiar with Bumble and Match, you'll know that they have probably 10+ à la carte features and multiple different subscription options. We have à la carte features and multiple different subscription options. We have essentially two subscription products. One's called the Unlimited, and what the Unlimited provides you is an unlimited number of profiles for $39.99, and the XTRA unlimited number of profiles for $39.99. And the XTRA package is about 500 profiles for $19.99. And then you can also have the free version. And so to me, we still are pretty basic in our subscription model. We added this year the weekly subscription model, and that was basic in our subscription model. We added this year the weekly subscription model, and that was priced at $12.99, and we found tremendous uptick in how many people wanted to enter the product at a lower price point. So much so that you can see that our user growth increased by enter the product at a lower price point. So much so that you can see that our user growth increased by entering the product at a lower price point. So much so that you can see that our user growth increased by about 18%. So the number of paying users increased by 18%, about 18%. So the number of paying users increased by 18%. The ARPU, I would say, is more of a output of our product. The ARPU, I would say, is more of an output of our product. The ARPU, I would say, is more of an output of our products. ARPU has increased about 21% this year, and I would say that's mostly due to the fact that ARPU has increased about 21% this year, and I would say that's mostly due to the fact that ARPU has increased about 21% this year, and I would say that's mostly due to the fact that ARPU has increased about 21% this year, and I would say that's mostly due to the fact that if they sign up for a weekly, the weekly, if you end up renewing, becomes more expensive than a... If they sign up for a weekly, the weekly, if you end up renewing, becomes more expensive than a... If they sign up for a weekly, the weekly, if you end up renewing, becomes more expensive than a... If they sign up for a weekly, the weekly, if you end up renewing, becomes more expensive than a monthly, as well as the fact that the Boost product has really been tweaked to be monthly, as well as the fact that the Boost product has really been tweaked to be monthly, as well as the fact that the Boost product has really been tweaked to be monthly, as well as the fact that the Boost product has really been tweaked to be more effective, and therefore it's just had a lot more purchases. So on the overall curve, we have more effective, and therefore it's just had a lot more purchases. So on the overall curve, we have more effective, and therefore it's just had a lot more purchases. So on the overall curve, we have more effective, and therefore it's just had a lot more purchases. So on the overall curve, we have about 1.5 à la carte products versus the 10 that Bumble or Match might have, and we have really only about 1.5 à la carte products versus the 10 that Bumble or Match might have, and we have really only two subscription tiers. So we're really just beginning our phase of two subscription tiers. So we're really just beginning our phase of meeting our users where they are in terms of products and price. I think that's a really interesting point on the user reaction to the introduction and scaling of kind of some of these subscription products, because a lot of times with the freemium apps, you kind of have to gently move people along. But it seems like your user base is freemium apps, you kind of have to gently move people along. But it seems like your user base is pretty, I guess, warm to the idea of having a full-featured subscription and are willing to pay for it because they find the value in it. Is that kind of resonant with what you hear? Yeah, I think honestly, the amount of advice we get from our users in terms of what kind of features they'd like on the app is quite interesting, and it just means that we actually have features they'd like on the app is quite interesting. And it just means that we actually have features they'd like on the app, which is quite interesting, and it just means that we actually have a lot of work to do in terms of meeting our users and the use cases that they use the product for, but they sort of jury-rig it to getting there. So I think what we found is they are willing to pay for it if we actually make it. So, I think what we found is they are willing to pay for it if we actually make jury-rig it to getting there. So, I think what we found is they are willing to pay for it if we actually make jury-rig it to getting there. So, I think what we found is they are willing to pay for it if we actually make the products compelling. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I would say shyness is not one thing that I associate with the online presence of Grindr. Yeah. I think in the past, you've kind of mentioned AI as a key component of online presence of Grindr. Yeah. I think in the past, you've kind of mentioned AI as a key component of your product strategy, and we've heard that kind of from some of the other public companies within the dating space. So your product strategy, and we've heard that kind of from some of the other public companies within the dating space. So your product strategy, and we've heard that kind of from some of the other public companies within the dating space. So your product strategy, and we've heard that kind of from some of the other public companies within the dating space. So how is AI integrated into the app now? How does it help users find better matches, and what are some of the considerations? How is AI integrated into the app now? How does it help users find better matches, and what are some of the considerations? How is AI integrated into the app now? How does it help users find better matches, and what are some of the considerations? How is AI integrated into the app now? How does it help users find better matches, and what are some of the considerations when it comes to maybe headcount costs, given that everyone feels like they're trying to chase AI talent about now? Oh, interesting. So first off, I'd say we're kind of even more immature in our use of AI than we are in general of the monetization. So we're really, really just beginning on AI. We, we absolutely are experimenting with it and using it. And so we're really, really just beginning on AI. We, we absolutely are experimenting with it and using it, and it is part of our product strategy, but we are not that far along yet. And the way that we envision it, and have already started the process, is really from a matching perspective when it comes to intent. And so... envision it, and have already started the process, is really from a matching perspective when it comes to intent. And so if we have intent that's demonstrated on the app of essentially I would say more longer-term relationship, I think that's where we find that AI could be the most beneficial. It can more longer-term relationship, I think that's where we find that AI could be the most beneficial. It can also help with how people chat with other folks. And what I mean is, sometimes the chat, like how you compose a message and how it's interpreted and what kind of lands well. The chat, like how you compose a message and how it's interpreted and what kind of lands well is a challenge for folks. And so where we think that we'll use AI is helping... It's a challenge for folks, and so where we think that we'll use AI is helping to develop or give suggestions on what the chat should be, as well as determining how that matching should be done. So that'd be like one element of AI. We actually don't- We actually don't think about it from a challenge on headcount perspective. As you can see, our EBITDA margins are fairly flush, and we can certainly afford to invest in this area and plan on doing so. We already have some investments that are being made. So, it's really not a headcount issue or an investment issue. It's more about how do we utilize it best. Headcount issue or an investment issue, it's more about how do we utilize it best, and how do we maintain the privacy of our data and allow the AI model to actually generate the right kinds of things? Great. Yeah, and we'll definitely get into some of the financial profile aspects later in the conversation. But we've seen monetization be a bit of an inconsistency in some other public online dating companies, some of it attributed to macro. So obviously, Grindr is probably going to be taking a different view of this, given the relative earlier stage of the monetization efforts. But I guess, how is your assessment of the macro impacts, macro environment's impact on Grindr? ... So, you know, the very first quarter that I was sitting in the seat, we heard a lot from Match and Bumble with respect to à la carte and feeling some pressure on à la carte. And that was really our second quarter of even and Bumble with respect to à la carte and feeling some pressure on à la carte. That was really our second quarter even with Bumble with respect to à la carte and feeling some pressure on à la carte. That was really our second quarter of even having an à la carte. So, you know, I was nervously looking at all the Looker dashboards and noticing that really having an à la carte. And so, you know, I was nervously looking at all the Looker dashboards and noticing that really nothing's happening, and I don't know why, because maybe it should be. And so we continued to watch it. I didn't see nothing's happening, and I don't know why, because maybe it should be. And so we continued to watch it. I didn't see nothing's happening, and I don't know why, because maybe it should be. And so we continued to watch it. I didn't see nothing's happening, and I don't know why, because maybe it should be. And so we continued to watch it. I didn't see it. Then in October, I would say that I was actually scared by one of the presentations that I heard from Gary with respect to all the student loans coming due and how much was gonna come through, and that was about a $500 price per ex-student. And I was like: Wow, let's see what happens, because there was a lot of dollar price per ex-student. And I was like: Wow, let's see what happens, because there was a lot of, I would say, macro discussion about it. As you can see, we put out our third quarter. As you can see, we put out our third quarter earnings, and they were pretty amazing. So we haven't seen any real macro impact yet. I wanna say that really, our product is very resilient. I mean, it is absolutely fundamental- I mean, it is absolutely fundamental part of the DNA and the fabric of the community and how they feel connected and how they interact with their peers. And so that really has been a saving grace for us so far. Like you said with their peers, and so that really has been a saving grace for us so far. Like you said, Andrew, there's no doubt we're probably also on the lower point in the curve of maturity, and so that probably also helps. Got it. And I guess one interesting feature of dating apps in general is kind of the younger skew and the constantly replenishing user bases as people age up into the dating market, you know, they exit when they find a relationship, come back if that relationship doesn't work out. How are you seeing traction, you know, they exit when they find a relationship, come back if that relationship doesn't work out. How are you seeing traction among your younger or Gen Z users? And in general, what are some of the more notable differences, either by traction among your younger or Gen Z users? And in general, what are some of the more notable differences, either by traction among your younger or Gen Z users? In general, what are some of the more notable differences, either by user cohorts, by age, any other kind of definition, versus maybe some of the other publicly traded companies? Yeah. So I'd say that really, Grindr is where a lot of these folks come out. And so we absolutely continue to replenish our funnel with younger folks come out. I would say that even more exciting about our app is the fact that we are really a benefactor of all the secular social tailwinds of it becoming more normalized and more accepted across multiple countries to come out. And so becoming more normalized and more accepted across multiple countries to come out. And so becoming more normalized and more accepted across multiple countries to come out. And so on the younger side of our cohorts, that continues to be extremely important and really is the main place they come out, which is wonderful because, quite frankly, who doesn't want to be the most popular bar in town? And the one with the, let's call it the newest inventory doesn't want to be the most popular bar in town. So we certainly have that. Secondly, I would say that from the perspective of inventory. As the folks grow older and the cohorts continue to age, we are now finding that we need to provide more intent. And so what that we are absolutely working on in terms of we need to provide more intent. And so what that we are absolutely working on in terms of getting the use cases set up for intent, if that's just a right now hookup, if that's a hookup on the weekend, if that's a more serious dating relationship. So that we are certainly planning for. So that we are certainly planning for hookups on the weekend, if that's a more serious dating relationship. So that we are certainly planning for and realize that is something that our users is asking for. And then I'd say the third thing is folks don't really age out. What happens is, even if the third thing is folks don't really age out, what happens is even if they end up in a relationship, which often they do. I think we think one in four folks on the app do meet their partner on Grindr. 70% of relationships are not monogamous, and so who meet their partner on Grindr. And so that means that they continue to be users, either as a couple or individually on our app. So really, the app is with them for life. And I guess within some of the subdivisions of the LGBT community, it feels like, and correct me if I'm wrong at any point, that Grindr has over-indexed towards gay men. Is it, is it one, is that a correct assumption? And two, if so, index towards gay men. Two, if so, index towards gay men. Is it? One, is that a correct assumption? And two, if so, kind of how do you deepen your connections, maybe with the lesbian community, the bisexual community, these other pockets that I think could maybe scale, you know, getting closer to the gay male. Other pockets that I think could maybe scale, you know, getting closer to the gay male usage or engagement. So I'd say that, from the gay male perspective, you're absolutely right. But that is our sweet spot for sure. And what I'd say also is we want to continue to focus on that cohort of the queer community. I think that's one that we do the best, that's one that we have the most knowledge in, and really where we play. That's one that we do the best, that's one that we have the most knowledge in, and really where we play. The bisexual community, as it turns out, the Gen Zs, one in five are now suggesting that they are bi. And so that also is becoming a very suggesting that they are bi. And so that also is becoming a very vibrant part of our app, suggesting that they are bi. Where we aren't really playing is in the lesbian side, and we don't really have any plans on doing that at the moment. Their behavior patterns and the way they swipe, and we don't really have any plans on doing that at the moment. Their behavior patterns and the way they side, and we don't really have any plans on doing that at the moment. Their behavior patterns and the way they interact with multiple partners is completely different than the gay male. And so, what we actually have heard pretty consistently is that they actually use Bumble because Bumble, they can use it for free as a woman, and they get everything they need from that app. So one can use it for free as a woman, and they get everything they need from that app. So we're not really looking at that cohort. Very interesting. And I think you kinda mentioned in one of your previous answers briefly the concept of international expansion, the concept of maybe varying societal acceptance levels of the LGBT community. I guess, how does that play into maybe varying societal acceptance levels of the LGBT community? I guess, how does that play into your user experience and the way that you reach out to potential users or current users in those markets where LGBT acceptance may not be as far along as it is in, in some other markets? So interestingly, 42% of our revenue comes outside of domestic markets. So not a small amount. We don't give out our MAU by region, but we have said that our monthly active users is predominantly outside of the United States. And what we find is that actually, that's where we're needed the most. Because if you're walking around in the States, and what we find is that actually, that's where we're needed the most. Because if you're walking around in San Francisco or New York City, it's far more accepted. And yes, we have incredible payer penetration in those cities. However, in places where it's less accepted, incredible payer penetration in those cities. However, in places where it's less accepted, that's where they need Grindr the most. And so, yes, as they mature, that's where they need Grindr the most. And so, yes, as they mature, every region and geography, it certainly is a tailwind for us. But at the moment, we are still very balanced in our global footprint. Much more balanced than I realized when I first joined the C-suite. That's interesting. Then maybe if we could talk a bit about the competitive environment, because it seems, at least in the U.S., growing. Grindr as an LGBT-specific or focused app, has quite some distance between any other competitors. But are there anybody else, maybe in other international markets, any other competitors? But are there anybody else, maybe in other international markets, where you start to think that they could provide a competitive threat or maybe even potentially a consolidation opportunity? So we're in 190 countries, and we're number one in 185. So we have five countries that we're not number one in. I believe one's in Korea, one's Japan, one's Germany. Countries that we're not number one in, I believe, one's in Korea, one's Japan, one's Germany. Those are obviously big and important markets, and so we are number two. Often we also would find that folks are on more than one app, and so, I don't know if I necessarily view that as a negative to not be the number one player in all 190. I'm not sure it's necessarily view that as a negative, to not be the number one player in all 190. I'm not sure it's always worth it to go after that last dollar. That being said, you know, always worth it to go after that last dollar. That being said, you know, obviously, opportunistically, we're approached quite a bit, but we have a pretty high bar. We have a pretty high bar. Obviously, opportunistically, we're approached quite a bit. We have a pretty high bar because we're not looking down to take down our EBITDA margins. And so we enjoy and wanna maintain having the highest EBITDA margins in the space. And so that means that we want to maintain having the highest EBITDA margins in the space. And so that means that our peer set of what we might consider, you know, becomes more limited. Let's say, we don't see anyone as a competitive threat. Let's say, we don't see anyone as a competitive threat. We view the market as extremely healthy and room for more than just us, that's for sure. Great. Are there any audience questions for Vanna? Go ahead. How do you guys think about safety, and, like, what's your responsibility, what isn't, and then how do you balance that with, like, a pretty playful brand image that you have? For the benefit of the recording, the question was on the concept of safety and how Grindr balances that with their online persona of being relatively playful. Right. So we view privacy and safety as extremely important, and sometimes actually, they are in a little bit of tension of each other. And so we actually value privacy higher because our users value privacy more over safety. Not there because our users value privacy more over safety. Not that they don't care about safety, it's just that privacy is the number one concern. If you've ever opened up the app... If you've ever opened up the app, you might be surprised at how many pictures are just blank, and yet those have still a lot of interaction. And so, since 2020, where we had some trouble, a lot of interaction. Since 2020, where we had some trouble, and obviously that's three years ago now, almost four, everything has changed with respect to our privacy and safety policies. We are, quite frankly, extremely vested in both those measures. You can see that our number— You can see that we're invested in both those measures. You can see that our number of folks that go to versus our number of folks that are infractions are 1/5 Facebook in terms of minors on the platform. So we are 1/5 Facebook in terms of minors on the platform. So we are extremely vigilant in making sure that there's no minors on the platform, that things are adhering to all of our policies. We ban users actively when anything looks like it's out of the ordinary. So at this moment, we really don't have anything that looks like it's out of the ordinary. So at this moment, we really don't have anything that looks like it's out of the ordinary. So at this moment, we really don't have any issues, knock on wood, with privacy and safety. Go ahead. Looks like your top 5 shareholders own about 85% of the shares outstanding. Is there any future plan to kinda diversify your shareholders? Yes, unfortunately, they continue to buy, and so, they really do enjoy the story. There's no doubt that we view that as something that we're gonna work on over time. We think that from our perspective, myself and George's, it's all about execution. We've been executing for a year. We're gonna continue to execute. We'd like to get the float up, no question. We're certainly thinking about that. I would say that for 2024, we're thinking about up, no question. I would say that for 2024, we're thinking about float, we're thinking about analyst coverage, and we can't force our top five shareholders to sell. They just don't want to. Not yet. Any more from the audience? Okay. On that financial profile, which you were talking about earlier, okay. How should we think about margin trajectories as, in general, as Grindr scales? Because you've talked about wanting to be the, the leader in the space, but you have a bit of room to number two. And you're the sales and marketing leader in the space, but you have a bit of room to number two. And your sales and marketing expense has always been quite minuscule. So I guess, how do you balance kind of that cushion that you have for investment versus harvesting continued margin? So that's a great question, because we get that one quite a bit, too. I'd say that, yes, we absolutely want to be top in our category for EBITDA margins. And quite frankly, we should be, because like you say, we don't have to have any spend in paid media, or... We should be, because like you say, we don't have to have any spend in paid media, or we should be, because like you say, we don't have to have any spend in paid media or in performance marketing. And that's often the number one spend for a lot of the other folks in the industry or in performance marketing, and that's often the number one spend for a lot of the other folks in the industry or in performance marketing, and that's often the number one spend for a lot of the other folks in the industry or in performance marketing, and that's often the number one spend for a lot of the other folks in the industry. And so we are gonna spend a little bit more on, what I would say, social media and, and, just like paid media to potentially evolve our brand. And so what I mean by that is, our longer term vision is the, the evolve our brand. And so what I mean by that is, our longer term vision is to evolve our brand, the Gayborhood in your pocket from a digital perspective. And so that means that we will branch out the Gayborhood in your pocket from a digital perspective. And so that means that we will branch out into more than just what I would call the core dating app, into maybe a travel vector, maybe a health vector, maybe a fashion vector. And until I think we evolve our brand, that won't land as well. I mean, quite frankly, we can even evolve our brand to get more advertising revenue. Right now, our advertising revenue, depending on the quarter, is between 12% and 14% of our total advertising revenue. Right now, our advertising revenue, depending on the quarter, is between 12% and 14% of our total revenue, which is still well ahead of our peers, but we think actually can be even better, simply because we are the best place for advertisers to go for this particular market. I think as our brand evolves, and I would say as our advertising units mature, I think we can actually do that. So to be more specific on EBITDA, yes, we have some room, and we also generate a tremendous amount of free cash. EBITDA, yes, we have some room, and we also generate a tremendous amount of free cash flow that we fully invest in the business already. So sales and marketing will still stay relatively light. I don't see any particular changes there. We certainly don't inhibit ourselves from investing for that. What I would say we are kind of cautious on is hiring. I mean, we feel like it's very important to hire the folks that would be the right fit for our goals. And that takes a moment. So I think I'll pause right there. Yeah, you're reading my mind on my next question, which was that, you know, there have been some headlines recently about the return to office move and kind of the resulting headcount turnover, and you'll be moving forward kind of as a much leaner organization. So kind of the resulting headcount turnover, and you'll be moving forward kind of as a much leaner organization. So, one, how does that impact the margin structure? And two, the thoughts on hiring and, and the right kind of go-forward headcount level for the business. So when George and I began about a year ago, I think something like the number was around 200. So right now, I think in our Q3 results, we showed about 111. So quite a bit lower than where we started. We don't view that as optimal, not by any stretch. We don't view that as optimal, not by any stretch. About 111. So quite a bit lower than where we started. We don't view that as optimal, not by any stretch. Actually, we wanna maybe not get all the way up to 200, but certainly increase headcount. We have been supplementing with outside service providers, so we've been using consultants and all kinds of service providers. So we've been using consultants and all kinds of service providers supplementing with outside service providers to ensure that our roadmap does not get impacted whatsoever. We absolutely did have a forecast for the folks that would potentially not return to the office. This was on the higher end of my forecast for the folks that would potentially not return to the office. This was on the higher end of my forecast, quite frankly. And I would say that you won't really see a change in margin forecast, quite frankly. And, I would say that you won't really see a change in margin per se, because what's probably gonna happen in 2024 is, well, we have certainly a large group of consultants and outside service providers. They will swap out. They will swap out with FTEs, and that will—you know, we're gonna be methodical about how we bring in FTEs. We now believe that our FTEs should be more experienced than potentially the footprint of the staff that we had before. We now believe that our FTEs should be more experienced than potentially the footprint of the staff that we had before. We think that we would like to pay a little bit higher, so you'll see our average headcount costs go up a bit. I think we're also benefited by a better hiring environment than people saw, too. Costs go up a bit. I think we're also benefited by a better hiring environment than people saw two years ago. There's a lot more talent out on the street, and I think being a public company with a public currency for people to see what their stock is worth is valuable to us, and it's working in our favor. Public currency for people to see what their stock is worth is valuable to us, and it's working in our favor. Public currency for people to see what their stock is worth is valuable to us, and it's working in our favor. Public currency for people to see what their stock is worth is valuable to us, and it's working in our favor. So I think it might take us a few quarters, but you should see our headcount kind of come back to what I would say the norm. So I think it might take us a few quarters, but you should see our headcount kind of come back to what I would say the norm. So I think it might take us a few quarters, but you should see our headcount kind of come back to what I would say the norm. So I think it might take us a few quarters, but you should see our headcount kind of come back to what I would say the norm levels of close to where we started, maybe not quite all the way there. Great. Appreciate that color. I have one more, but if anybody else in the audience has questions? All right, seeing none. A lot on your plate, it sounds like, for 2024. But if you had to pick just one thing— But if you had to pick just one thing that investors should focus on or you feel is underappreciated in the Grindr story for 2024, what would that be? I would say that we're really early on our monetization, like we talked about. We're at 7.1% payer penetration, and quite frankly, we've raised it nicely during the year. We have this, I would say, good, not so good headwind, which year obviously is good, which is our MAU growth. And so, our MAU growth chain continues to increase at around 8%-- obviously is good, which is our MAU growth. And so, our MAU growth chain continues to increase at around 8%, and it's really important for us to get more and more paying users. So what I would say is, the underappreciation is the fact that there's a lot more opportunity for us to convert our non-paying users into paying users by simply providing them what they're asking for and what they need at the right kind of price points. Great. Really interesting. Well, Grindr and CFO Vanna Krantz, thanks for joining us. Thank you. All right, thanks.