A real delight to have HashiCorp with us, Dave McJannet, CEO, and Navam Welihinda, CFO, join us in the star cast. I also am joined by a debutant on the stage, Matt Martino, who is fantastic, who is on my team here. HashiCorp is an elegant piece of technology, but it's also very complex. It's not the easiest thing for people to understand. So we're gonna demystify as much as possible. I think the first time I met you guys, it was clear the mission was very broad, and the agenda was very deep, and the time horizon for fulfilling your vision was gonna be a very long one. We went through analogies of how, you know, the application layer went through the cloud transition It was time for the infrastructure layer to create a VMware equivalent, kind of a business in the cloud, and we talked about the analogy. So as you sit here, if you try to visualize the company five years from now, what are the what does Hashi look like, and what are the things that you see yourself doing for your customers that you're not doing today? Let's just start at a high level. Yeah, the first thing I'd just underscore is, despite all the hype, how early we are in the cloud transition. I think we have a first-class seat in viewing that, just how early this is for most people. And, you know, super consistently, what people are doing is, while the early part of cloud adoption is relatively ungoverned, once they get serious about it, they do centralize how they're doing things. They say, "I need a consistent way to provision things and a consistent way to do things like the security lifecycle management." And our opportunity is nothing less than, you know, winning that position of trust as they standardize how they do those things which are fundamental to everything. So that's, you know, that's the mission we set out on years ago, and that's the one we are continuing to progress down. Our opportunity then is to win the trust of the, call it, the 4,000 biggest companies in the world as to how they do that. It turns out that's a common buying center for all things cloud. For example, in cloud, there's no security budget versus infrastructure budget. There's a cloud budget. So those buying centers aggregate a bunch of different things in a single place. So we start with Terraform and Vault, as you can see. We've recently announced a privileged access management offering called Boundary, which sells into that same buying center. We have other products that sell into the buying center. And so I think that's how to think about our opportunity. It's about winning this position of trust, and then bringing new products to bear over the course of time. Now, I think we've always said that there's a sort of a VMware-like opportunity in as much as someone needs to provide that consistency across the heterogeneous infrastructure and cloud, and that's, that's the role that we envision. Got it. So, if a company were not using Hashi, and they switched to Hashi, what would be the benefits that they would notice, along the most compelling lines of argument that you could? You know, you almost have to think about it layer by layer. People think about infrastructure, security, networking and the app layer. Just think about the benefits of, of standardizing on, on the infrastructure provisioning layer. It's about reducing cost. Right? Most people are way over-provisioning compute because they do it differently on Amazon, differently on Azure, differently on the private data center. Guess what? You get billed for all of that. S o we ourselves actually went down the process of saying, "Well, how much are we wasting on our cloud estate, that's not going through Terraform?" Well, it turns out it was a lot. And so it's about reducing cost. Now, how much orphaned infrastructure do you spin up that you don't even realize is out there, and you get billed, billed for, and you realize, "Well, how did that happen?" There's only one solve, and that is to centralize how you do that. So it's about reducing cost. It's about reducing risk. You know, don't let people provision things that you don't want provisioned. And ultimately, it's about accelerating the delivery of new things. So that's the framework to think about. It's actually a super easy ROI conversation. People go, "Hey, I'm using Terraform. It's a bit ungoverned. If we centralize it, we will be able to stop people from provisioning things that we get billed for." That's an example. But you could play that out at the other layers as well. At the security layer, y ou know, how much money are you wasting spending on firewalls in a world where it actually makes no sense to use firewalls because things are coming and going all the time? You should use identity-based controls. There's a huge cost savings opportunity, risk, et cetera. The security industry just didn't exist, like, a couple of decades ago, and it's $150 billion, I'm told? i t's, like, a lot of spending... It is really, really big, but there are very, very few products that are actually in the runtime path of prevention. I think that's the key for me. You know, there are a lot of products in the security category that'll tell you, "Hold, hey, you should look over here. There's something weird happening." There's a reason that most companies that have any kind of security breaches are now Vault customers because Vault is literally in the runtime path of preventing it. I guess the benefit of using Hashi is, when you once you set up this provisioning and, networking security environment you're sort of future proof. The next cloud project becomes easier to deploy. Correct. Your existing cloud project is easier to expand upon, right? Correct. Yeah, exactly. That's exactly right. There is sort of an upfront investment that has to get made from this very ungoverned model to the centralized model, and that is just the reality of infrastructure. I think there's actually a good paradigm comp to virtualization. You know, virtualization was buzzing around as a technology for a while. Once people realized you needed to create the role of the VI Admin in your company, then it took off. It was an org structure thing that had little to do with virtualization and everything to do with your org structure. There's a similar thing that every company's going through which is they have to organize differently. And so as a result, infrastructure markets move a bit more slowly than, say, the database market, where, "Hey, database here. New database. Okay, cool, no real change." Infrastructure just requires a bit of a heavier lift. The flip side is, it doesn't get replaced by a new database when a new database comes out because it's too endemic. Dave, I think that segues nicely. You know, you guys are clearly going after a huge TAM opportunity, right? But from your perspective, you know, what inning are we in respect to kind of enterprise's cloud maturity, if you will? Yeah, really. Actually, a really good data point on that is, if you think about what percentage of companies have centralized their approach to cloud, it's probably 25%-30%, like that's sort of where I would put it. And of those, most of them are just getting going on organizing their company. Think about how they do it. They create this cloud team, and then they go onboard the different business groups that are going cloud. Like, you may have set up the cloud program, but only two business groups are going through it. It'll be a long time before the rest of them do, but that's the journeys they're going on. I will say, this optimization cycle over the last year has probably jumped that number from 25% to 30%. Because everyone's realized, "Wait, wait, wait, I'm way overspending on Amazon, on Azure. How do I bring it under control?" There's really only one way to bring it under control: stop provisioning things. And so I would actually say that optimization cycle has been good for us in terms of accelerating that centralization team central team formation, but it's super early. Gonna jump- Yeah, no, yeah, Dave, I think, like, just double-clicking on that point around kind of Terraform and how you guys can help with those kind of optimization efforts. Can you speak to that a little bit? Yeah. Yeah, I think, you know, Terraform, you know, this, it makes me smile sometimes when I hear about the FinOps stuff that's happening in Google, and it's about, you know, financial, basically figuring out where I should be saving money on my cloud estate. Well, the only way to correct it, you may do the analysis somewhere, but the correction has to go through the reprovisioning of something, and so that means the workflow is through Terraform. You know, people, we don't talk about it a lot, but, you know, the FinOps practice only happens because of Terraform underpinning- Correct the correction process. So I think, you know, there's a lot of mileage there, again, in terms of when people are trying to constrain cloud spend. That's where they look. But there's also a lot of workflow changes to the organization that are required to put that in place, that are not technology-related. Right. And so I think, you go back to the point, these are big companies, and they move at big company pace, and they may have made that decision this year, but it'll be next year by the time they put it all in production, the year after by the time they're really starting to see the benefits, and that's the nature of, you know, the Global 4000 that we serve. Dave, when we're done with this Fireside Chat, I want you to give me a list of companies that are slow-moving, so we can create a short basket, and the companies that are fast-moving, so we can create a long basket. Well, you're not kidding. I'm not, no, no. We travel around, actually, it's quite ironic. We, we travel around, and you do take a mental note when you go to some of these places, and you go: Okay, this is one probably is gonna be, you know, not at the top of my list, when you just see how slow they are. I think there's an opportunity there - you guys could create your... You could do it on your - I will say, I will say also, to be clear, like, we are in this really unique information flow. We talk to the Fortune 3,000 or 4,000 about what their cloud plans are every single day and what their infrastructure plans are every day, and, and I think that is, like, that's, that is a rare thing to be able to do. That's what informs our product development cycles as much as anything, is our ability to be in their information flow and develop that position of trust, and there are not many vendors that do that. In that position. Yeah. How much of a priority is cloud enablement today versus, say, 12 months back, when everything seemed to be going fine? I think you've seen, you've seen actually, basically two countervailing forces, just for what it's worth. You're seeing optimization happen, where people are sort of like, "Let's spend less on cloud." And then you're, and that's brought the cloud provider growth rate down, as you can see. But at the same time, there's sort of the industrial delivery process of cloud apps actually picking up steam, if anything. So it's almost like you've seen, like, a one-time reset and down a little bit. F rom all the waste that was happening, and now, my guess is you'll see back to a pretty normal pace of growth. Tell me more about that. I mean, that's the first positive thing I've heard all day today. It'll never go as fast as the investment community would like. But yeah, I would say again, we see it every day, like, this shift to cloud is not changing. It is. Do you think we're coming out of this funk, this optimization headwind, sort of? I mean, it feels like you're closer to the end of it than, Well, I think this is an interesting thing to talk about. I mean, the phone agrees with us. Yeah. So I don't know, we were all wasting a lot of money on Amazon and Azure, and think about how we were wasting it. In two categories: One, we're provisioning things and leaving them there, and you get billed every day. Well, you waste a lot of money really quickly when that's happening, but we all were. Number two, you were provisioning things on compute that you didn't need. Maybe you should have provisioned this on a small CPU than the big one you're getting charged for. Those are the two areas where there's a lot of overspend. I think that rationalization is happening, and it's gonna happen for a while longer. That's gonna happen for a while. I would also say that it's important to delineate between the consumption models and the subscription models. that are out there, and you'll see that in your overall portfolios. The rest of us sell entitlements that renew on an annual basis. So that actual optimization cycle has got a ways to go. Right? Because your first opportunity to reset that entitlement is when that thing renews and that is endemic across all of SaaS. We're doing it to our vendors. So I actually think that the optimization- Be nice to your vendors. It's gonna grow. Somebody was saying to me yesterday that everybody in tech is trying to really outsmart each other and optimize the hell out of each other. If we all agree, and- This is when I- agree to be nice to each other, then, you know, maybe- If you'd let us all spend money on wherever we wanted- Yeah, exactly then we could help. But that is, I think that optimization cycle has got a ways to go. I don't think that's over. But I don't think that takes away from the longer arc reality, that more things are going to cloud. Yeah. You know, that's what you're seeing. You know, so negatives here and a positives here. Once this stabilizes, you'll see a slightly higher positive on the right-hand side. Got it. Switching gears to Navam. You're one of the very few CFOs that has an engineering degree, right? That was not the intent of my question. Is that true? I mean, I just find it- That is true, and I started off. I really wanted to code. I still... Yeah, I guess I barely code now, but got into investment banking and then didn't look back. Oh, we did- I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. Yeah. We took a nice W and made you a financial person. Exactly. She's my excuse. I'm a mechanical engineer, but I don't know how to code. Eventually, they get you. Yeah. Yeah, exactly, exactly. But, Navam, good to have you with us.... Can you talk about, as boring as it is, because the engineering stuff is probably a lot more exciting- Yeah. But finance is also pretty exciting. When you look at your fiscal guide, what are the assumptions you've built? And you guys have been generally not too not letting your business momentum get in the way, so you've been very measured all along, right? What is built into, particularly at a time that we're going through right now, what is built into your guidance? What are your inputs that inform your view of the business? Yeah, I'd go back to what Dave was saying, right? We're in this optimization cycle, which is colliding with this long-term secular shift of apps moving to cloud that's not going away, and multi-cloud that's not going away. And when, you know, we all travel, Dave travels more than me, he goes and talks to these customers, and they're all having conversations about standardizing, you know, infrastructure lifecycle management or security lifecycle management, which is essentially the core products we have. So all that is happening with the backdrop of, you know, the world is a different place now. Everyone's worried about the bottom line and spend, and we really need to think about how we're deploying capital and how we're spending in each of these quarters, because there's an expectation of profitability and, and, and optimization, right? We're seeing the collision of these two forces, which ultimately will resolve itself as we reach an equilibrium at some point. It's just not this quarter, and our view is it's not this year. Right? So what we've built into our guidance is this, this view of how that's impacting these larger expansion and extension cycle, you know, deals that we're doing with the Global 2,000. So these contracts are moving. They're moving and they're closing, but they're moving and they're taking a longer time. There's more procurement involvement. For better or worse, CFOs feel like they need to insert themselves into every conversation now, that's above a certain size, so we're seeing a lot of that. Second Quarter was this great example of, like, okay, we saw, we saw some green shoots of some good contractual activity on the larger side, but we're not out of the woods yet. So what we've baked into the back half is the same environment that we're in, which gets reset one year at a time, right? We're in this budget cycle that was set during peak fear in the back half of last year, in Q4 of last year. We just have to work our way through that. We've extrapolated that into Q3 and Q4, where we've just taken a very measured view of what's gonna happen in terms of large contract activity which impacts growth rates across the board and us specifically as well. Got it. Got it. So, Dave, switching gears to you. Actually, I was telling myself that I'm not gonna use "switching gears," "drilling in," "double click." So maybe that was the last time if I use those conventional terms. Just call me out, drinks on me. No double click, no, no drilling. No drilling, I mean, drilling. Gen AI caught the world by storm. Where does that leave you with your business? Is this positive? Too early to tell? Looks like Compute is going to largely grow faster despite the optimization headwinds. What are you. How are you looking at this opportunity, and how are you positioning the company for success? So you need, You know, to me, the, you know, AI equals a cloud workload, simply stated. So, you know, any AI workload is, by and large, running on cloud infrastructure. If not today, it certainly will be. So in that sense, it's hugely accretive to the underpinning tools and technologies that are used to enable cloud applications. So that's how we see it. It's a, it's a catalyst for long-term growth. It's just another workload that's gonna grow faster than average on, on, on, on cloud. Certainly, I think the second thing we're seeing, which is kind of surprising, is we're seeing a bit more heterogeneity in infrastructure as a result of AI. And it, it kind of makes sense if you think about it. You're like, okay, well, OpenAI on Azure, maybe Cohere on Oracle, maybe like, you know, I forget the names of them all, you know, that are happening. They're largely like new platforms in a way. And so in the same way that the clouds are different per personalities in general, I think the same thing holds true for the LLM models they have, where I'll run certain things in different places. And so it's gonna actually drive more heterogeneity of compute, I think, than less, where companies are gonna say, "I want to use this particular model running over here, but I'm basically an Amazon shop. So how do I think about the consistent tooling that allow me to do that?" So I think that's the second part. It's super, super good for us, and I do think thinking of the LLMs like platforms, like a cloud by themselves, is a good way to think about them. So super positive for us over the long arc. I mean, they're also our customers, so that's good for us, the AI companies, as you can imagine. But net, I think we view it as a catalyst for workloads and probably multi-cloud workloads. We are even seeing that, for what it's worth, in a few places where I may be a predominantly AWS shop, but I wanna use OpenAI for one particular application. Turns out you need to broker identity, you need to provision compute, you need a secure connection between the two. You need the bridging technologies across the clouds that we provide. So we are seeing some cross-cloud applications, which is a little atypical, generally speaking, because generally, like multi-cloud applications, have such high latency that people don't build them that way. Turns out LLMs process that anyway, so the little latency doesn't matter as much. So that's the third bit, is around more multi-cloud. This is fascinating. And so you're seeing customer use cases like happen right now? Yeah. Sure. This other company, AI company, which you don't have to name, but how are they using Hashi? Well, you think about how they provision compute how they think about- That's a big issue. That's a big deal for them. It's a big deal for them. How they think about doing that repeatedly s pin up, you know, identical looking infrastructure and scaling it up and down. You can imagine how they do that. how they broker machine-to-machine connections between the front end to the back end. You can imagine how they do that. They're just a modern cloud-native app. How, how much are they commercial versus open source? Oh, they're commercial customers. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Did they start off with the open source version? Yep. And so there's a good template for how this- Yeah, that's exactly how they all work. Yeah. If I can guess, they were quick to make this transition as opposed to- Actually, no, I think, actually, it's probably a really good example. We let them use our stuff in open source, and we're helpful to them in the early days 'cause it's, you know- They didn't have money. kindred, kindred spirits. But the minute they started to scale, they became commercial customers. So Dave, you touched on this a bit earlier, but HashiCorp addresses both the infrastructure life cycle and the security life cycle. So can you speak to kind of HashiCorp's value prop across these two categories, and then maybe, you know, what's wrong with the current model? What drove HashiCorp's, you know, entry into this market? So I think every time there's a paradigm shift in computing, the different software stack layers get recast. And so you think about how I provision compute in the private data center era. I have a bunch of vSphere on top of a bunch of x86 machines. I provision a virtual machine on top of it, and that's what the provisioning process is. It's typically done through a ticketing-based process. Like, I open up ServiceNow, say, "Someone send me out to compute," off I go. In the cloud model, you just give an instruction set to Amazon. You say, "Spin up 100 machines, spin down 100 machines, and make them look like this," and you're done. So there's both a technology change and a workflow change. It happens in 30 seconds, not 3 weeks, and the tooling you use to do it is different. So that's a very concrete example of why people move to the newer model, 'cause it takes me 30 seconds to provision compute, as opposed to 3 weeks. At the security layer, again, there's a similar construct where it was all around secure network perimeter in the private data center because everything's running here. Now, I'm running in cloud, things are all over the place. Well, there is no network perimeter, so I need to think about security differently. So again, there's a technology change, which is I use identity as the basis of security. Can this thing talk to this thing? I don't know what's its identity. And then there's a workflow change, which is no one's opening up a ticket to spin up a new firewall around what I got provisioned. It is just, you know, when I provision my apps, they inherit the rules of what I put in place, and they can talk to each other or they can't. So for both of them, there's both a technology transition and a workflow transition. And I think that is also why, you know, perhaps compared to, like, a data warehouse modernization cycle, this stuff takes a little bit longer. You know, in the world of the data warehouse, I can shut down my Teradata and move everything to Snowflake. No change in tooling, no change in workflow, it's just a better mousetrap. In the world of infrastructure, there's just the workflow aspect that's different. While the benefit's super, super clear to everybody, they just have to organize together. All the cloud native companies, that's just how they work. Now, the Global 2000 are adopting that blueprint. That, that's really fascinating, and I think this segues nicely for, for Navam. You know, I, I just want to get a sense of kind of what does the typical product adoption cycle look like for some of your scaled customers, right? You have a few customers that are over $10 million in ARR. It sounds like you have different products that address different levels of enterprises, cloud maturity journey. So, just want to get a sense of kind of that ALE or motion and kind of how you guys think about that. Yeah. So ARR, in our view, is sort of... You know, there's— the cycle starts with adoption through the open source, and then you land a commercial product, expand, extend, right? And then the upper limit of that expansion, extension, once you get to the larger size, is greater than $10 million, well greater than $10 million. And the proxy of how big that could be. This is when we look at history and VMware and what is their large customer set, how big are they? They're multiples of $10 million, right? When you think about their estate and how much they're monetizing the G2K and the G4K. So when you look at the G4K, there's a stratification of how that's playing out for us. In the upper end, there's the $10 million plus, and they don't get there immediately. They start small, and they expand and extend up to $10 million. They just happen to be the customers that are the most mature when it comes to standardizing and creating those cloud platform teams and getting their apps organized around those cloud platform teams. So that's the fast forward the tape to what the majority of the G4K could be in terms of their infrastructure spend. And then along the way, there's other customers that are sort of, "Hey, how many of them are over $1 million? How many of them are $500,000 and $1 million, and $100K," right? So the $1 million-dollar customer segment, I think we disclosed in our 10-K, was greater than 100, and those are the customer set that's sort of working their way up to that next $5 million and $10 million dollar limit. And then really, when you think about who we're after, it's these customers that spend more than $100K in ARR, and that's our proxy for who's these large infrastructure spenders that we can start to land, and then start the clock on expansion and extension. So when you look at our cohorts, they have this nice stratification of upper end of the spectrum, like really mature cloud organizations, and then lower end of the spectrum of, like, "Hey, we're just starting off in the cloud journey." And you, the progression is essentially app workloads moving to cloud, second product along, third product along, and then just expanding in each of these. And yeah, we think, we think the upper end of this is pretty big with, with each of these large customers. I had a question. Matt and I attended HashiConf in L.A. last year, right? You announced a couple of new products, and you actually had code scripts running on your demo, which was just pretty cool. Where are we with the adoption of the new products you launched at HashiConf? I mean, how much of a futuristic thing is it at this stage, or are you starting to see some real customer dollars being spent? Probably, the big one we announced was our Privileged Access Management offering called Boundary. It's actually, I think it's super instructive of the reality of infrastructure. So we offer our products in two flavors. You can either self-manage them, or you can have a-- we... You know, just like MongoDB Atlas, we, we have a common chassis, with- you can- we can run them for you. There's a much, much higher bar to consume managed products from infrastructure, is the takeaway. So what we announced was actually a cloud-delivered, cloud-managed version of our privileged access management offering. And actually what the market generally told us is, "That's super compelling to us, but we really want to self-manage it." So that was the feedback we got pretty quickly from the larger customers, and as a result, we released the self-managed version in May of this year. And I would say that's the one that has seen real market resonance. But I think it's super instructive of the dynamic where, you know, I might allow you to run my Mongo database, because if that goes down, then you know only that app goes down. But I don't want to consume a managed service of infrastructure, because if that goes down, everything goes down. So, so I think hugely positive resonance, particularly once we got the self-managed version. And I think, as we mentioned in our earnings call last week, there's probably, you know, nine out of ten meetings I go to, that is a topic that comes up. Oh, wow! Dave, like, HashiCorp Cloud Platform, I just wanna touch on that, 'cause it's a promising growth factor. But still small portion overall. You know, how do you think about kind of enterprise willingness or lack thereof to kind of adopt the cloud platform, right? And what are, what may be some of those key catalysts you see in the future? Yeah, I think it's about 12% of revenue, give or take, as we- Yeah. Matt's really trying to say HCP is a ticker symbol, cloud platform. Come on, get, get going. No, so the question becomes: What's the catalyst for that HCP or the, the managed line item to really take off? I would just say it's infrastructure, so it'll be a more linear line than a hyperbolic line, is how I would think about it. Because the customer reliance on us is so high, like, it's akin to being a cloud provider. Right. It's not akin to being a database vendor. So the catalyst there is the market willingness to consume as a managed service. That's a reputational thing for us. It takes years to do that. You know, us going public and having over $1 billion in our balance sheet is actually one of the things they really care about if you're gonna play that role. So I think all of that is trending in the right direction. And number two, it's about, you know, things like PCI and HIPAA compliance for the, and FedRAMP for the platform. Most SaaS companies take seven, eight, 10 years to do that. We're 5 years in. So I think it's a combination of those two things. The biggest constraint is enterprise willingness to adopt it. I do think we're seeing the green shoots of that today, where a lot... You know, we've onboarded some European banks, and when that starts to happen, you sort of go, "Yeah, it's starting to happen." And in the next, you know, 12-24 months, I think you'll see that appetite resume. Green shoots. It's less, but it's less about us, and it's more about them, is how it sounds. Right. First time I've heard green shoots today. Green shoots. We have heard, actually, during the earnings season, at least four companies mention green shoots, so it's five now. It's not that bad, huh? I mean- It's not that bad. Jan's outlook for the economy, he's like, he thinks rates are probably peaky right now. We've probably avoided a recession. Last year we had a certain number of people attend Jan's presentation. This year, you cannot get in. Overflow of rooms, so that guy's like- Yeah, and I think we're in a really good spot, truthfully. F or, of that information flow. We see the reticence among the customer base. We see the reticence in the market. At the same time, this is a secular trend of not slowing. So yeah, you do see, you see that. There's nervousness about their own businesses and that translates into capital expenditures, and yeah. They should all listen to Jan's webcast. Yeah. I mean, it's okay if it's- It's gonna be okay. It's gonna be okay, yeah. Whereas, I think there's a lot of still the lingering concern that we might head into a recession. It's just the- I would say what we've seen, just for what it's worth, a good number of times where people go, "Yeah, yeah, we're, you know, we're gonna give you the design win of this infrastructure, but we're gonna write a very, very small check for you for now. Yeah. That's what's happening generally. So what is the, what is the transition point where people wake up and say, "You know what? I've dithered, and I've slowed this thing down, but I'm getting hurt because of not using Hashi or using old provisioning, old security tools, old whatever it is." Is there like a wake-up moment one day you say, "I've gotta do this? It's, this is it"? I don't think anybody says that they don't need to do it. Okay. It's a question of: Why do we need to do it now? And it's when they start to feel competitive pressure on their ability to deliver new applications, and their ability to manage the cost and risk. That's when they wake up, and that's, as Navam says, that's aligned to a capital budgeting cycle. Yeah, exactly. Anybody has any questions you wanna jump in with? Just raise your hand or, if not, I have a question on, you hired somebody who we think of very highly, Susan St. Ledger. She's a legend in the Valley. She was at Salesforce, she was at Splunk Okta, et cetera. How is, how is she coming along? She, I'm sure, is listening to this. Susan, if you're listening. She's not. She's not. She's selling, I hope she- She's on a plane to Lisbon right now. Okay. Which is exactly where she should be to help us. No, so she's relatively new, right? She just started. We announced her in our earnings call last quarter, so it's been, what, 70 days or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. So it's still super, super early. Yeah. I'm super optimistic. You know, I think, you know, we have aspirations to be a very, very large company, and $500 million-$1 billion is different from $1 billion-$2 billion. Yeah. There are very, very few people in the world that have led go-to-market organizations from $500 million to $2 billion, and she happens to be one of them. She sure is. Super, pleased to be able to convince her to join us. It's much more about scaling. It's about systems and processes around scale, that she's focused on more than anything else. I wouldn't expect major changes. I would expect the military orientation of our go-to-market machinery to enhance rather than any major changes. And it's about keeping expectations high. It's about delivering every single day, and what it means to do that at scale is different than what it means to do that at a smaller scale. Yeah, Navam, maybe just steering it back to the financials. HashiCorp has shown tremendous leverage this year. You're guiding to break even in the back half of fiscal 2025. Yeah. As we get closer to that point, you know, how do we think about kind of the trade-off between growth and profitability, you know, kind of post-fiscal 25, if you will? Yeah, I mean, that's an important point that's in everyone's mind internally at HashiCorp. To Dave's point earlier on how early we are in the innings and not over-optimizing to the point of being detrimental to the long term, right? That's a balance we always seek to strike every day. When you think about sort of the income statement, what we have is a lot of you know opportunity because the gross margins are so high with our business, right? We are at a 80%+ gross margin. Our cloud margins, which are a growing part of our business, has grown nicely from where they were to over 60%. We think that's gonna normalize in the high 70s%, close to 80%. So overall, you have this big bucket that falls into the OpEx line or below the gross margin line, that you have the opportunity to now decide how you're gonna invest. We're always gonna invest very aggressively into R&D. We think that the products are key to winning this market, and that's something we're gonna continue to do. What we've looked at is, across the board, what are the long cycle investments, so the horizon two investments, and what are the short cycle investments? And we wanna maintain a good mix of those. So where, you know, last year, we probably had more flexibility in going into geographies that were less mature in cloud and maintaining a presence there. We are less likely to do that, or we're likely to do that in much more smaller scale this budget cycle. So we've made a lot of investments. You've got to look at this in the context of how much investments we made. Sure. and headcount we've put into the business. We think we have a good footprint on our core products, Terraform and Vault, the R&D side, and our core GTM motions in Americas and, you know, Western Europe. We think that's adequate capacity to go reach the scale we want to over the next year. And, you know, post that, we'll again strike that balance of investing and maintaining a good operating margin. Maybe we'll wrap it up with one question. Navam, you can chime in here. I know you said guidance, which looked quite conservative, I mean, not much of a sequential subscription driving the growth rate. Is that-- have we reached the bottom in modeling the customer hesitation? What does a recovery cycle look like? What are the things that could go the other way? What are the indicators you're looking for? Yeah, yeah, good question. So the sequential sort of, you know, subscription revenue growth guide is more related to the third quarter seasonality rather than anything related to macro peak troughs, et cetera. So when you look at how we guide our first quarter, how we guide our third quarter, where we're guiding compared to a bigger bookings quarter in the fourth quarter, specifically in the second quarter as well, right? So that's more of the third quarter guide. Objectively, the second quarter was better. But we don't think that there's any change in the macro environment that, that changes our guidance. So that's more of the sort of third quarter guide view. In terms of what happens when it gets better, right? You're going to see this growth in bookings, which is going to be reflected in growth in CRPO. Then eventually, it translates to revenue re-acceleration. Okay. It's in that order, bookings, CRPO, revenue. So you're gonna see sort of that progression start once the recovery starts. We'll end right, 25 seconds early. Thank you so much, Dave and Navam, for coming to the conference and- Thanks for having us. Hope you have a wonderful conference. Thank you very much. Uh, enjoy. Cool. And, we'll see you soon. All right, cheers. Thanks, Alex.