For our next fireside, we've got Adam Townsend, CFO of VIZIO. Adam, we go back a long time. We do. Great to see you. Yeah, good to see you. Yeah. Thanks for having us. Thanks for joining us. So maybe we'll just dive right in. So platform revenue, it was up 27% year-on-year in the third quarter, and I think you had some challenges starting to creep in from the M&E weakness, both from streaming cost cutting, but also the strikes. Your guidance for Q4 implies a pretty strong growth. Again, I think over 20% is implied at the platform segment. I'm guessing the M&E headwind is even bigger, so if I'm doing that math right, the underlying trend is getting better, ex M&E. So as that, maybe you can kind of talk us through the trends in the underlying- Sure - advertising business. Sure. Platform. Look, 2023 has been a great year, you know, for us, in terms of advertising. If you look at the nine months to date that we've reported, we're up in that high 20% range. And so the growth has really been continuing to be strong. I think it's more of a function of the category in addition to our own execution. And what I mean by that is that CTV continues to take share. Dollars are starting to follow eyeballs in a way that has been a little slow to do. There's been a lag between viewers shifting over into connected TV and outside of linear. But cord cutting is continuing, viewers are moving over, advertisers are having to find ways to reach those viewers, and we provide an incredible solution for them in multiple ways. Not only do we bring an audience together, we've got great viewership data that's valuable to advertisers, and they're able to launch campaigns that are effective, you know, on our platform. And so we're really pleased with that. We're seeing very large categories, like CPG, up significant year-over-year. We're seeing categories like pharma come in in a much bigger way. And so while you mentioned M&E, M&E has been a little bit slower because of some of the dynamics going on in that industry. But for us, we actually grew M&E nicely in Q3, even with that dynamic. I think part of it is the fact that M&E spending, they understand that they may need to spend differently, but there's no better place to spend than- Mm-hmm ... in the living room, in front of a viewer with the highest intent to view. And so whether you're trying to advertise to promote content, which that's the part that's delayed, because there's no new shows right now because of the strikes, but the service is important as well, and retaining existing subscribers is important as well. So reminding people what you have on your service, reminding the availability, running promotions, our platform is a great, Mm-hmm ... destination for that. So we're optimistic. Now that the strikes have kind of gone away, I think we're starting to see networks give launch dates. Mm-hmm ... for their new programming. The dollars will follow that, and it's gonna be competitive for that living room and that viewership, and we're gonna be right in front of that trend. You mentioned a shift from linear. Do you have evidence? Because this is a question we get a lot about whether or not dollars are moving from linear to CTV versus moving from elsewhere, or experimental budgets to CTV. Do you get a sense of where the dollars of CTV growers are coming from? Yeah, I mean, we get general feedback from the agencies that we work closely with. Mm-hmm. I mean, we have partnerships with all the major holding companies, and so we get a little bit of insight from that. But when you look at the categories and which ones are really growing, these are very heavy TV spenders. Yes, they spend in other categories as well, but the dollars that are coming in and chasing that, the type of advertising we can provide, meaning- Yeah ... if you think about pharma, pharma needs to have, you know, a 15-second, 30-second TV-oriented spot, and so they're bringing that into- Yeah ... CTV, which is great. And CTV really brings together the value of both the lean back traditional TV advertising- Yeah ... which we all know has the highest brand and message recall. It also pairs that with great data, which is obviously more thought of in the digital world. And so when you think about an advertiser coming in and being able to buy lean back, high recall, and couple that with data- Mm-hmm ... and understand who they're reaching, it really is kind of a sweet spot for these kinds of advertisers. So as they get more and more comfortable with- Mm-hmm ... bringing dollars in, finding the viewership, finding the... and using some of our targeted data capability- Mm-hmm ... there's a lot we can do for those partners. You mentioned pharma. Can you talk a little bit about what your, maybe category or vertical exposure is at the moment, and what you hope you can grow into over time in terms of advertiser categories? Yeah. I'd say we've come a long way in the last few years as we've built up our ad sales team. We're now at a size and scale where we have folks that are specialized on various parts of the market. So we can have people that are dedicated to outreach to auto, for example, or pharma, or CPG, categories like that. We've even added, in the last year, staffing around political, so that we're ready for the political campaigns that are coming this next year, which can be another great driver for the space. So I think we're really positioned to be representative of both the general market and by categories, as well as the natural M&E category that we talk about a lot. Mm-hmm. So that positioning, those are the largest dollars, to your question, is coming into the system from- Yeah ... from linear. We have every indication that is based on the type of categories, who the buyers are, what the agencies who are representing those buyers are telling us, and it all, it all feeds in. So let's talk a bit about monetization. This is where we've historically been most positive on, on VIZIO, and the way I kind of like to get to it is, your platform revenue growth has been outpacing, your SmartCast hours growth, which implies that you're monetizing more per hour. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Whether that's, you know, more commercial load, better splits, higher pricing, probably some combination of- Mm-hmm ... of all those things. But so first, maybe you can talk about whether you want to talk about it in terms of ARPU or some other metric, what you're seeing in terms of the way you're monetizing time spent. And then secondly, we look at that gap a lot versus Roku- Sure ... and it's still a pretty big gap, and so maybe talk a bit about how you close that gap over time. Yeah. Look, another place where we've come a long way... Again, you're looking at a company that's really only been in the platform monetization business for- Mm-hmm ... since really the end of '19 at best, but really in earnest, kind of midway into 2020. And so it's just been a few years that we've been at this. So it's really remarkable what the team's done in terms of the execution against that and driving the growth. We're very focused on the data and understanding where our users are spending time, what content they're going to, how are they getting to that content? Where do we have an opportunity to monetize them? We've made tremendous investments in improving the user experience of our home screen, more engagement there. We're finding ways to bring in understand that data and bring in more content that they're likely to wanna engage with, so you increase- Mm-hmm ... the probability that they go to the right kind of content. Yeah. So really give them a better overall experience, and that means they're more likely to spend more time in the right content, where we have an opportunity to monetize. So I think you're seeing the proof of that in those metrics that you highlighted. Our ARPU outpacing our time spent means that we're generating more advertising growth per hour, per user than we have historically. I think we're still in the very early innings of that. There's a lot more room to go. We need to broaden and continue to push the kind of content we have, particularly in WatchFree+, which is our collection of FAST channels. That's our 290-channel app that Yeah ... spans all genres. We wanna get more users in there and spending more time, and we'll be able to do that by improving the user experience, which we've done in terms of improvements around the search and discovery, the navigation tool- Mm-hmm ... the way the EPG works, to show them what content's available. We promote that content on our home screen, so we use some of that space to- Mm-hmm ... drive awareness and drive engagement. And then we've built out some of the ad tech capabilities so that we're... To your point, our fill rates have improved. We're just more efficient. You know, we're really driving growth on multiple fronts. So it's not. There's no one silver bullet. It has to be a collection of all of that: user experience, establishment in the marketplace- Yeah ... the technology to deliver it in an efficient way, all that to drive growth. And we're really focused on looking at our, the quality of our install base as well. Quantity is nice- Mm-hmm ... but quality matters, and that shows up as well in those metrics. When you see time spent moving more and more towards streaming. This last quarter, 58% of the time our users are turned on with the TV, they're in our streaming environment. That's really valuable because that's exactly- Yeah ... where we have the best chance to monetize them. So that's a metric that hit an all-time new high this last quarter, and we see the adoption and the advancement of streaming continuing to expand. If I kinda unpack what you just talked about a little bit, a lot of what you're doing is to probably improve mix, like time spent on WatchFree+, which gives you higher monetization per minute, per hour, et cetera. Yep, yep. Then separate to that is just things like fill rate or CPM growth, which is more kind of a specific pricing element, less about the user experience... That's right ... more about the business to business side. So specifically on that second part, the pricing side, I mean, can you talk about maybe what your pricing dynamics looked like, you know, one or two years ago? You've now gone through a big upfront cycle, and then what some of your pricing dynamics look like today to contribute to some of that improvement? Yeah. Most of this revenue growth you're seeing is actually more from usage, and servable impressions than pricing. Mm-hmm. Pricing, pricing's been steady. Pricing has an opportunity to go up to the extent that advertisers wanna use some of our targeting tools, and you get more specialized or targeted or addressable advertising. Today, about 40% of the ads that campaigns that are run on our platform are using some version or some elements- Mm-hmm ... of our targeting. I'd love to see that obviously be much higher 'cause we think it can bring a lot more value to the... and return for our ad clients when they use those tools. To hit the right people, obviously, all the obvious answers around that. But it's really more about the efficiency of the platform and getting people into the right content and get the right kind of users. We see ARPU on our larger screens tends to be about 30% higher than our small screens. So that matters a lot because if we're getting the right content even if our install base... Let's just say it didn't grow. It's growing, but let's just say it didn't grow, but the underlying quality of that install base is shifting, where small TVs tend to churn out, have a shorter lifetime. Yeah. 65, 70, 55, 50-inch TVs, much longer useful life and much more engaged- Mm-hmm ... with streaming content. So that's a really positive move, and it will show up in those metrics around monetization. Mm-hmm. And then just to kind of finish up on this thread, so more specific to where we are right now, I hate to ask a short-term question, but if I could- Okay ... just kind of press on to how pricing has trended in connected TV this quarter, to the extent you can talk about it. Look, it's not. I don't think it's really moved meaningfully. I mean, I think it's, it's- Mm-hmm ... there's adequate demand. I think generally, CTV is more of a... Especially for us, we're more of a supply-constrained dynamic. Because, you know, viewers move into CTV, they split their time between some ad-supported and non-ad supported, right? So just- Yeah ... someone coming out of linear that spends five hours a day watching TV, spends five hours in CTV, it's gonna be fragmented into into those two buckets. And so, what we have to do is kind of replace that and be able to kind of- Mm-hmm ... fill, broader usage. So pricing has been steady. It's been strong because of the mismatch between supply and demand dynamics, but I wouldn't view it as something that's really, Yeah ... rising rapidly. There's gonna be more supply coming in the market- Mm-hmm ... which makes sense, but that just means the demand can find a home. Yeah. People often ask us about what we think about, you know, Disney taking ads or Netflix taking ads, and is that adding a lot of supply? Well, it is, but that's actually a good thing- Mm-hmm ... because those big categories I talk about are looking for more places to put money to work, and if the CTV market itself is supply-constrained, they wanna be able to find places to put those dollars. So we welcome that. We think it's a rising tide for everyone. It's more of a dynamic of CTV versus linear than competition within CTV itself- Yeah ... if that makes sense. ... We estimate your ARPU gap versus Roku is about 30%, and I-- you know, they have some international mix in there, so the domestic gap is probably a little bigger- Mm-hmm. - than thirty percent on ARPU at Platform+. They obviously have much bigger scale as well, but, you know, you've talked about fill rates a couple times in particular. So I'm wondering how if you think that gap can narrow- Mm-hmm. - you know, over the near term, and what levers you can pull to do that? Absolutely. I mean, I think we're excited that... And I agree with you, that the domestic ARPU number is higher- Mm-hmm than their blended reported number. Yeah. So we look past their reported number at the opportunity. Yep. The US market's supporting a number that's much higher than that, and so we're gonna be continuing to go after that. Part of it is just evolution. Part of it is being in the market longer. They've been out there a lot longer. They were sort of the scaled place to buy and reach advertisers at that time. We've now come up the curve. We're in the early innings of kind of that establishment in the marketplace and get campaigns and planning shifted towards us, so that's part of it. And we also have a little bit of a different user base, right? The only reason someone gets a Roku is to stream, right? Mm-hmm. People buy a VIZIO TV to do a lot of different things. So our user base isn't always as highly prone to streaming as theirs might be. So there's a little bit of gap in terms of time spent streaming versus us, but that's rapidly closing, and you're seeing it in our own metrics- Yeah As we're seeing that. Our users are shifting to streaming. They're coming over more and more. I do think the enhancements we've made to our platform has made that a better experience for them. Mm-hmm. Once they have a better experience, and they realize what's available to them and the value of all that content, including WatchFree, which is a- Mm-hmm a lot of great free content, it's a tremendous value proposition. Mm-hmm. And so you tiptoe in, you get comfortable with it, you start using it more and more, and all of a sudden it becomes your main entertainment source. So we're seeing that shift happen, and I think we'll close the usage gap that exists today. But there's nothing in our mind that's structurally different. Mm-hmm. It's a function of time and the type of users, their behavior- Yep and really closing that gap. And so we've narrowed it a lot since we went public back in 2021. We've got our eyes on surpassing that number. Could you talk a little bit then about how the margin performs as ARPU increases? Specifically, the platform margin, I know you typically guide to the blended one. Mm-hmm. Bit of a, you know, razor blade model that we can get to as we get into the device side of things. But, as you continue to grow revenue and expand ARPU, would you expect platform gross margins to expand as well, or does the structure of that business have some variable cost components? Well, it's more of the mix that's- Mm-hmm that's the dynamic. Yeah. So, if you think about the platform revenue, there's advertising, which we break down, and there's non-advertising. Within advertising, there's home screen, and there's video. Home screen is a much higher margin, 90%+ type margin. Yeah. But there's capacity constraints to that, right? There's only so many home screen impressions that can be served, only so many session starts to monetize that engagement, and so there's some limitations to that. What will happen over time is that the video revenue will continue to expand and become a bigger and bigger part of the advertising mix. Yeah. The video side tends to be roughly a 50% margin because of the rev share structures that are in place with the content partners. So if you think about that piece growing in total and it being 50%- Yeah versus the smaller home screen piece at 90%+, it actually has some kind of, Yeah downward pressure Yeah from a mix standpoint. Still, a lot of runway for, you know, maintaining very high 50%-low 60% margins. I think that's kinda the range we're in. Mm-hmm. You know, we're very comfortable with that mix profile and the large addressable market behind it. And then, you know, maybe lastly, because you talked a bit about just experience and feature set, what additional investments into Platform+ would you like to either make or leverage? So I know data and data licensing is a big part. You've been less aggressive than some peers on the content side, and then I think you recently announced some new app features as well that I think have helped drive some of the engagement or ARPU. Yeah, we have. I mean, we continue to refine it. This is a, like, a constant work in progress. Some of these things can be done quickly. New features can be launched, but others take a little bit longer. We just rolled out... We're in the process right now of actually rolling out another update to our operating system, which is making it much faster, much better navigation. Just enriching that experience for the user. A few months ago, we launched a new home screen. That was a big, dramatic change because what that did is it just made a better platform for people to search and discover for content. They're engaged with it at a higher level. You're seeing a 60% increase in engagement with promotion units, so click-through rates- Mm-hmm basically, on what we call our hero banner. More call to action- Yeah - more like, "Watch free now," you know, "Stream now," things like that, where- Mm-hmm People are responding to that. So all of that is, again, geared towards improving the user experience, which translates into time spent using and then ultimately monetization. So we've got a whole pipeline. Our engineering team has a long, really kind of a multiyear roadmap- Yeah - of development and features that we wanna bring to the platform. I wanna increase awareness and the usage of our VIZIO Account, exa- Mm-hmm As an example, because we think there's an opportunity to keep growing subscription revenue. We're allocating some resources to acquiring on-demand libraries to keep fleshing out what WatchFree+ provides, not just streaming FAST channels, but also on-demand movie and television content. So all of that taken together just keeps enriching the experience for consumers. We think that just translates right into monetization. ...Then as we kind of bridge the gap onto the device side of things, so there's been a little bit of volatility in conversions historically. Then I know, you know, as you talked about, you're looking to move up into larger and larger television sets, again, which can create some noise, but probably also increases long-term value. Yep. So how do you, how do you kind of think about when you're projecting the business, what's gonna happen in conversion and just how the device mix is transitioning over time? Yeah, I mean, I think as we've gotten more data and more sophistication on understanding our install base and their behaviors, it helps shape our strategy around the product set and the lineup. That's why we've talked a lot more lately about increasing our focus on larger screen TVs. There's a significant gap- Mm-hmm ... between a larger screen TV and the smaller ones. We sell a lot of the small ones, and those are important as well. Yep. But the volume trade will create some noise in that. Newly sold TVs still activate at over 90% rate. So, you know, anything getting sold, you know, for example, right now through the holidays and Black Friday and Cyber Monday, those are gonna, those are gonna immediately become active accounts. Yep. The install base then has its dynamics to it, right? There's gonna be older units that get replaced. There's gonna be variance in the life cycle of small units versus large units. So I think our focus is be in market with great products, lean in on the larger screens because of the value they create, keep engineering- Mm-hmm ... investing in engineering to bring great, software enhancements and new capabilities, both to the viewer, but also to our ad partners. Yeah. We do a lot on the ad tech side as well to create capabilities around frequency capping dynamics, and different measurement tools, and off-device monetization capabilities that allows us to kind of keep feeding the value for our partners as well as, you know, our users. So those have to work together to ultimately drive the growth. Do you think about the world- Mm-hmm ... in terms of TV market share? And if you do, do you think about where you wanna be in either lower price or smaller set SKUs, where I think you've traditionally been kind of number one, number two? Mm-hmm. How do you then think about that next tier up, which I think is very, very fragmented and competitive, because it has competition from the higher priced manufacturers- Mm-hmm ... and higher priced from the low manufacturers? Yeah. It seems like that's where you're trying to encroach a little more. We are. We argued it's that 50-inch, 65-inch. We do very well in that marketplace. Mm-hmm. In fact, through most of last year and into coming into this year, we had had the number one or number two selling units in that size category. So, we can do well there. I think where it gets challenging is when you see really extreme pricing moves from some of the competition. So earlier this year, we saw some really aggressive and I would view as unarguably unsustainable price moves. Mm-hmm ... by some of the peers out there. And in that environment, which we said, like, we're not gonna chase that, we're not playing a race-to-the-bottom strategy. We were willing to lean back, which translated into a little bit better EBITDA performance- Yeah ... 'cause we weren't promoting quite as much, but it's a trade-off of volume, right? Mm-hmm. But that is the balance, because you can't just chase one strategy or the other. You have to balance the two- Yeah ... and make sure that you're operating the company at the right level. So, that's really kind of been our focus. Some of that extreme pricing has come out of the market. We're seeing some normalization- Mm-hmm ... come back in, which is encouraging. We think that's probably... It's gonna continue to be highly competitive- Yeah ... but not these really, really extremes. If you look at the first half of this year, every brand lost share, with the exception of one, and that was Walmart's house brand, onn. Samsung lost share, TCL lost share, Hisense lost share, we lost share. And we kind of knew that was going to happen because the pricing dynamics were so extreme. Yeah. As that normalizes, you'll get back into it, and we think that we do think about the macro from a number of units in the U.S. market per year- Mm-hmm ... and what our market share is to that. We think in more normalized pricing dynamics, we've got a product that should be able to regain some share. And so that's one of the things we focus on in terms of our pricing relative to peers, so that we can have a competitive product and drive incremental share gains. And do you feel like that Walmart product has, you know, materially disrupted the market? And, I mean, it sounds like things are kind of normalizing, but is the new normal different share for you than it was before? Or have you kind of now rolled through a little bit of fragmentation and back to- Yeah, like, like a- ... number 2-ish sort of position? I do think it was highly disruptive. Again- Yeah ... doesn't seem to be a sustainable dynamic to us. And so as that normalizes, we'll come back up. I'm as focused on where I'm gaining share and what the quality of our install base. I think that's really back to the key. Yeah. Now that we have a strategy and a team that can execute on it, it matters more than ever that we're getting the right kind of user growth- Mm-hmm ... not just growth for the sake of growth. So shipment volumes, you know, we're gonna lean in- Yeah ... on campaigns to incentivize and be able to drive better growth in higher value-creating units. As the CFO, you know, I imagine you work with the sales team about what an acceptable device margin is, or sometimes what an acceptable loss on a device sale is. So how are you thinking about that- Mm-hmm ... mixed in with the opportunity that you see in Platform+? And I think you mentioned this on the last call- Mm-hmm ... like, you look at it as a combined margin business. Mm-hmm. You're selling one, if you can take a higher loss there, but you can make more back on Platform+, you know, it all kind of comes out in the wash. Yep. So at this point- Yep ... where do you see kind of device margins in a healthy range? Yeah, look, I think that the model-- now that we're as established as we are on the Platform side- Mm-hmm ... generating a north of $30 ARPU and growing from there at a 60% gross profit margin, the argument for being competitive on pricing and maybe even, you know, having a slightly negative margin on device sales- Yep ... makes a ton of economic sense. I mean, you've got to think about it almost in the context of a business that has a customer acquisition cost, right? Selling the TV is our CAC. Yeah. Now that we're at this level of ARPU and growing with a lot of headroom, back to your earlier point about- Yeah ... the North-- U.S. being much higher than what the largest players' numbers are just supports that thesis all day long. So if it's really- Mm-hmm a race to gain households and increase scale and expand your TAM, that is, like, what we wanna focus on. And so I look at that and say: Look, there's some natural parameters. The question will be, how much of our first-year ARPU are we willing to give up- Yeah ... as a CAC? And it's a different number for a 65-inch TV than it is for a 24-inch TV. Mm-hmm. That's absolutely a different number- Yeah ... because of the dynamics that we've been talking about here. So I think that as we get more refined and sophisticated about, how we approach that and how we approach our pricing strategies- Yeah ... per SKU, it's all gonna be built to drive this improved quality and install, install base, expand our monetization capabilities, and drive ARPU higher. The big surprise this past quarter was the announcement of licensing the operating system to- Mm-hmm ... some potential partners. You know, William has always talked about how important this kind of marriage between hardware and software was, and VIZIO's, you know, really kind of competitive advantage was in developing both and being one of the few that could do both. Yep. So this felt like a big change. Mm. Maybe first, I want to ask you a few follow-ups on this, but just first by kinda what changed within the company that made you all decide that this was the right time to make that shift? Yeah, look, I think it was the kind of culmination of a number of factors and investments that we've already been making sort of behind the scenes for our own benefits. What I mean by that is that we've been working on increasing the efficiency of our operating system, even for our own benefit. Mm-hmm. Meaning, if we have an operating system and a code that is more efficient, it needs less memory and processing power to be... to operate, right? That'll allow us to reduce our build costs of our hardware. So that, those, there's a symbiotic kind of relationship between those two things. So we were already doing that for ourselves, but we got to a point where we could develop the software and have it have more flexibility to then work on other chipsets that maybe other manufacturers use, that we don't use. And so, once you were at that point, it created basically a decision tree of, "Hey, what other vectors of growth or opportunities could we tap into now that we've already made this investment from a, from a software standpoint?" and I think just understanding and seeing how the marketplace is evolving- Mm-hmm ... and the importance for gaining households. I think this idea of, hey, if we have- if we've already made this investment and the software is in that place, and we see a developing marketplace where there's an appetite for maybe- Yeah ... other kinds of partnerships, perhaps partners with folks like us that understand that connection between software and hardware, and how software helps hardware. Mm-hmm ... perform better. We speak that language with those- Mm-hmm ... that are third-party OEMs. Unlike some of the competitors who, to license their OS, they don't really think necessarily about the hardware- Mm-hmm ... and the software in the same kind of way. Yeah. I think there's an interesting conversation to be had with some- Mm-hmm ... of these partners, and it's probably refreshing for them to hear people who come from the hardware DNA and understand their challenges, their dynamics, and how to make their hardware perform better. So we're gonna have conversations. We already are. I think it's, it's pretty encouraging, what we're hearing so far. It's gonna be a little bit before we're in market with a product, but I think, so far, so good, and we're excited to, to kind of tiptoe into this. You said that this was kind of a response to the marketplace evolving. Can you expand a little bit on, on what that evolution was? And, you know, without putting words in your mouth, I think what I kinda heard is, you know, Roku, Google, they license an OS, but it's just an OS. It doesn't really change the performance of the television. Things have changed in the marketplace that make the manufacturers want something a little broader. So what- Yeah, I- ... what has evolved that's changing? I think that's it. I mean, Yeah ... think that the dynamics around the economics of the business in terms of just selling hardware or monetizing the back end in terms of the user base is creating some changes. And so I think there's- Yeah ... an interest in how do you work together and create a mutually beneficial model that can help them reinvest in their business and improve hardware and make it a better product for the consumer, at the same time, letting us expand our TAM and grow into the marketplace? Mm-hmm. I think they're just looking for just a different flavor of- Yeah ... the R&D and OS, which is kinda what it had been historically. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And what does a good partner look or feel like? What are some characteristics of a good partner? I think someone who's got a commitment to the U.S. market- Mm-hmm ... in particular, that wants to bring great quality products into the U.S., that wants to work with us in terms of what a reasonable economic split and share can look like- Mm-hmm ... that's willing to invest in the units themselves and making sure that they're bringing great features- Yeah ... and capabilities. I think that kind of overall sort of symbiotic dynamic is really- Yeah ... what we're looking for. Is it more likely to be a partnership in that 55-inch and bigger area, since you're so strong already below that, or could it really be in a variety of SKUs? It could be in a variety, but I think that we would- Mm ... bias towards the larger, and I think that we might wanna create incentives to help get more of their larger output- Mm-hmm ... in our direction, which I think would be beneficial to the overall model as I've described it. Yeah. And then, you know, if we take kinda all this and bring it back to just your generation of EBITDA, and I know you're not guiding to next year at this point, but when you just think about what this business can achieve, you know, from an earnings power potential over time, what do you see as some of the best drivers? I think one of the challenges with connected TV is that investors have not always been able to figure out what margins or what EBITDA kind of power looks like. Mm-hmm. Any context you can put around that? Yeah, look, I would just say, just remind everyone, we're still in these early days of- Yeah ... of building out this business. Yeah. This is far from a mature or saturated market. CTV is in the early innings as a category, and we are early in our evolution within it. So that requires some continued investment. Mm-hmm ... which we should be making on the engineering side, on the, you know, creating more features and capabilities, bringing more solutions to ad buyers. Pricing the product in a way that we have a chance to hold and gain share, so that we get more households, create expansion opportunities- Yeah like we just talked about. So, you know, we are far from at a place where we are optimizing or maximizing EBITDA, because, but it's a balance. Yeah. We also know that we can't take it, you know, way down and just go for- Yeah Only growth. It's got to be somewhat of a balance, and I think we've done a decent job of that. We continue to be focused on achieving- Yeah - that level. But overall, you know, I think there's a point when you get the ramp-up done, you've got the public company costs we had to absorb kind of behind us in terms of, the ramp-up of that, you start to get operating leverage in the model on the back of that, because the key driver of the business is this 60% gross margin platform business- Yeah with a lot of headroom to it. So I think that's, there will be a turning point when that starts to come. I can't. I'm not gonna guide- Mm-hmm to when that, when that comes, but the model naturally does have that kind of Yeah flexibility in it, because ticking off those high-margin platform dollars will flow through to the bottom line. Yeah Once you don't have to absorb some of that in engineering and overhead investment. Keep in mind, like, you know, the hardware, the hardware. The come down in the hardware margins was from a elevated place when we went public, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. This was during the pandemic, when you didn't have to discount anything. We had outsized margins of 10% in our, in our device segment, and that came down to a more normalized, you know, 4%. And we've now, because of the platform growth, been able to take it down further to, to increase competitiveness and pricing position. That becomes more of a steady state itself as well. So the headwind of that, from an EBITDA standpoint, starts to normalize, the comps get easier, and the platform business can kind of grow out the back side of that. And then lastly, I mean, you have a really, really strong balance sheet, but you're in a somewhat odd place because there's not a lot you would really do with it. Yeah. There's not really attractive M&A, and your stock probably doesn't-- you probably don't want to take any out of the market. So do you look at any other strategic options that you would use the balance sheet for at this point? We're just generating nice cash flow off of our treasury ladder strategy and Yeah - Just rolling Treasuries. Yeah. It has been frustrating from a—as a steward of capital- Yeah. Right, right. ... it's been a little bit frustrating. You sort of feel handcuffed, and you're between a rock and a hard spot on this. Yeah. I've talked to everyone you can imagine across Wall Street, including your bank, about every- Yeah idea that we could ever... And there has been no perfect- Mm-hmm solution. I love that we have a healthy, strong balance sheet. Yeah. I love that we have no debt. It gives us a lot of financial and strategic flexibility- Mm-hmm - around that. That's the importance. But, I think we just have to keep our head down, operate the business- Mm-hmm Right, do the right strategic moves, grow the business in the right way, and, you know, maybe we'll have an opportunity to utilize that cash at the right time. Yeah. Great. Thank you, Adam. Happy to do it. Good to see you.